Rebuild: Where are we right now-How long will it take based on assumptions

[cardstatman]

Foolishly not trading Fedde and Helsley last winter set back the rebuild at least a year, IMHO.

If they had traded Fedde and Helsley, then Arenado would not have nixed the Astro trade, IMHO. He would not have falsely believed the Cards could compete in 2025.

Our farm system would be better with the better prospects we would have gotten if we had traded high on Helsley and Fedde.

We would have missed Helsley in 2025 but we have several AAA relievers who should be better than average MLB relievers.
McGreevy would have done better than Fedde in 2025, so the 2025 win loss record would likely be better, not worse.

We also could have signed a few free agents with the money we saved by trading Helsley, Fedde, and Arenado. Then we could have traded them away at the 2025 trade deadline for even more prospects.

I don't see the Cards being competitive in 2026 or 2027.

[ilcubuffs]

Where we are right now?

Whoa, thought it was a nightmare
Lord, it's all so true
They told me, don't go walking slow
The devil's on the loose

Better run through the jungle ........ Whoa, don't look back to see

How long will it take ??? IF Bloom is given enough slack to create - 2 yrs. Mix of youth and FA's. 1 yr to get rid of dead weight - Marmot, Blake, MO Ran, et al.

[mdkieffer]

They won't even truly begin their rebuild until after the guaranteed lockout coming next year.

This will be a big lockdown.

They need to go to a salary cap. The inbalance in the majors is so bad and it will everentually kill itself

[hmoss859]

2030

[JuanAgosto]

I've been saying now that the inept POBO is gone at seasons end and we've got a bright POBO who can both walk (build the farm system) & chew gum (build a competitive ML roster) at the same time.

My hope is BDWJr gives Bloom the payroll he needs to add pieces that may be many years away from coming from within.

Doing this IS NOT going back to the "old" way!

Bloom has spent two years upgrading the minor league system, it's (hopefully) now up to speed and running smoothly.

R. Cerfolio by all counts is also a massive upgrade, he can oversee things below and make sure our prospects are getting everything they need to reach their potential (something lacking under Mo).

If Bloom can pull off a great trade (starting pitcher) or two (offensive OF'er) this winter and BDWJr gives him some money to spend WISELY (unlike Mo) to fill in the gaps, then we could see the Cardinals back on the right track much sooner than later.

JMO

I agree, Rock. I've been saying the addition of one good SP and a good bat could make this team competitive next year. Of course the addition of a strong manager would also help.

What do you mean by competitive?

Competitive for a Wild Card? For a playoff spot? This is a bad baseball team. That was true before the deadline deals. Adding a bat and a SP isn't gonna make this team a serious WS contender.

Did i say they would be World Series bound? They could be competitive. As in potentially being in a race for a playoff spot. Which would be good considering they are in the midst of a rebuild.

You're buying into the league's bull[shirt] system of adding playoff teams until almost everyone can be in contention. Screw that. If the team isn't good enough to be a serious WS contender, they might just as well be 70-92. That way at least they can focus on building for another year.

Oh good grief. What the hell qualifies as a World Series contender? BEING IN THE [fork]ing POSTSEASON!!! There are multiple 100 win teams that didn't make the WS. The 2006 Cardinals won 83 games. Do I think the organization should strive for mediocrity and hope to qualify? No! But to do it during a rebuild would be good. I don't think they (or any other team), would say "We don't consider ourselves World Series contenders, so we decline the spot we earned."

[JuanAgosto]

I've been saying now that the inept POBO is gone at seasons end and we've got a bright POBO who can both walk (build the farm system) & chew gum (build a competitive ML roster) at the same time.

My hope is BDWJr gives Bloom the payroll he needs to add pieces that may be many years away from coming from within.

Doing this IS NOT going back to the "old" way!

Bloom has spent two years upgrading the minor league system, it's (hopefully) now up to speed and running smoothly.

R. Cerfolio by all counts is also a massive upgrade, he can oversee things below and make sure our prospects are getting everything they need to reach their potential (something lacking under Mo).

If Bloom can pull off a great trade (starting pitcher) or two (offensive OF'er) this winter and BDWJr gives him some money to spend WISELY (unlike Mo) to fill in the gaps, then we could see the Cardinals back on the right track much sooner than later.

JMO

I agree, Rock. I've been saying the addition of one good SP and a good bat could make this team competitive next year. Of course the addition of a strong manager would also help.

A change of the face of the franchise...fans are sick of seeing and hearing the insipid interviews of the head clown, Mo-ran And some aggressive moves that send a message that a the front office cares and will spend .

I agree wholeheartedly with this!

[Ozziesfan41]

I've been saying now that the inept POBO is gone at seasons end and we've got a bright POBO who can both walk (build the farm system) & chew gum (build a competitive ML roster) at the same time.

My hope is BDWJr gives Bloom the payroll he needs to add pieces that may be many years away from coming from within.

Doing this IS NOT going back to the "old" way!

Bloom has spent two years upgrading the minor league system, it's (hopefully) now up to speed and running smoothly.

R. Cerfolio by all counts is also a massive upgrade, he can oversee things below and make sure our prospects are getting everything they need to reach their potential (something lacking under Mo).

If Bloom can pull off a great trade (starting pitcher) or two (offensive OF'er) this winter and BDWJr gives him some money to spend WISELY (unlike Mo) to fill in the gaps, then we could see the Cardinals back on the right track much sooner than later.

JMO

I agree, Rock. I've been saying the addition of one good SP and a good bat could make this team competitive next year. Of course the addition of a strong manager would also help.

What do you mean by competitive?

Competitive for a Wild Card? For a playoff spot? This is a bad baseball team. That was true before the deadline deals. Adding a bat and a SP isn't gonna make this team a serious WS contender.

Did i say they would be World Series bound? They could be competitive. As in potentially being in a race for a playoff spot. Which would be good considering they are in the midst of a rebuild.

You're buying into the league's bull[shirt] system of adding playoff teams until almost everyone can be in contention. Screw that. If the team isn't good enough to be a serious WS contender, they might just as well be 70-92. That way at least they can focus on building for another year.

Oh good grief. What the hell qualifies as a World Series contender? BEING IN THE [fork]ing POSTSEASON!!! There are multiple 100 win teams that didn't make the WS. The 2006 Cardinals won 83 games. Do I think the organization should strive for mediocrity and hope to qualify? No! But to do it during a rebuild would be good. I don't think they (or any other team), would say "We don't consider ourselves World Series contenders, so we decline the spot we earned."

The problem is regular season record has no bearing on the version of the team that makes the post season and their chances of winning. The 2004 team great team lost carpenter for the post season that hurt. The 2006 cardinals had a fantastic team they had the MV 3 they had carp got hit by injuries that killed their regular season record got healthy at the right time and won the World Series. 2011 team had a good foundation but a lot of holes and struggled but completely made over the team and addressed all of their weaknesses at the deadline and were a completely different team when they made the post season and won the World Series. The 2015 team had historically good starting pitching won 100 games but when they made the post season the rotation was a shambles and the team didn’t have a chance

[Voldemort]

How can the Cardinals be rebuilding when management/ownership is not done destroying the franchise?

[JuanAgosto]

I've been saying now that the inept POBO is gone at seasons end and we've got a bright POBO who can both walk (build the farm system) & chew gum (build a competitive ML roster) at the same time.

My hope is BDWJr gives Bloom the payroll he needs to add pieces that may be many years away from coming from within.

Doing this IS NOT going back to the "old" way!

Bloom has spent two years upgrading the minor league system, it's (hopefully) now up to speed and running smoothly.

R. Cerfolio by all counts is also a massive upgrade, he can oversee things below and make sure our prospects are getting everything they need to reach their potential (something lacking under Mo).

If Bloom can pull off a great trade (starting pitcher) or two (offensive OF'er) this winter and BDWJr gives him some money to spend WISELY (unlike Mo) to fill in the gaps, then we could see the Cardinals back on the right track much sooner than later.

JMO

I agree, Rock. I've been saying the addition of one good SP and a good bat could make this team competitive next year. Of course the addition of a strong manager would also help.

What do you mean by competitive?

Competitive for a Wild Card? For a playoff spot? This is a bad baseball team. That was true before the deadline deals. Adding a bat and a SP isn't gonna make this team a serious WS contender.

Did i say they would be World Series bound? They could be competitive. As in potentially being in a race for a playoff spot. Which would be good considering they are in the midst of a rebuild.

You're buying into the league's bull[shirt] system of adding playoff teams until almost everyone can be in contention. Screw that. If the team isn't good enough to be a serious WS contender, they might just as well be 70-92. That way at least they can focus on building for another year.

Oh good grief. What the hell qualifies as a World Series contender? BEING IN THE [fork]ing POSTSEASON!!! There are multiple 100 win teams that didn't make the WS. The 2006 Cardinals won 83 games. Do I think the organization should strive for mediocrity and hope to qualify? No! But to do it during a rebuild would be good. I don't think they (or any other team), would say "We don't consider ourselves World Series contenders, so we decline the spot we earned."

The problem is regular season record has no bearing on the version of the team that makes the post season and their chances of winning. The 2004 team great team lost carpenter for the post season that hurt. The 2006 cardinals had a fantastic team they had the MV 3 they had carp got hit by injuries that killed their regular season record got healthy at the right time and won the World Series. 2011 team had a good foundation but a lot of holes and struggled but completely made over the team and addressed all of their weaknesses at the deadline and were a completely different team when they made the post season and won the World Series. The 2015 team had historically good starting pitching won 100 games but when they made the post season the rotation was a shambles and the team didn’t have a chance

That's what I'm saying. It takes some luck once you qualify. And getting in as a rebuild should be a positive. Not looked at as being a waste. To say you'd rather be 72-90 than in the playoffs is just a ridiculous outlook. And I realize it wasn't you that stated that opinion.

[Red7]

Foolishly not trading Fedde and Helsley last winter set back the rebuild at least a year, IMHO.

If they had traded Fedde and Helsley, then Arenado would not have nixed the Astro trade, IMHO. He would not have falsely believed the Cards could compete in 2025.

Our farm system would be better with the better prospects we would have gotten if we had traded high on Helsley and Fedde.

We would have missed Helsley in 2025 but we have several AAA relievers who should be better than average MLB relievers.
McGreevy would have done better than Fedde in 2025, so the 2025 win loss record would likely be better, not worse.

We also could have signed a few free agents with the money we saved by trading Helsley, Fedde, and Arenado. Then we could have traded them away at the 2025 trade deadline for even more prospects.

I don't see the Cards being competitive in 2026 or 2027.

You were NOT getting the haul you think for Fedde and Helsley. 2024 was career years for both. If you feared a regression, so did the other teams. Why trade for Fedde and give up a quality prospect, when for less money, you could sign a Jose Quintana? Look what the Brewers got for Williams. The Cardinals did MUCH better when they traded Helsley.

[Braund241]

Unless owner changes with regard to payroll, the 12th of never.

Exactly right. Team will not compete under current leadership unless they luck into another Albert, Yadi and hire real coaches. You have to have 3-4 super stars, other stars and good fillers. This team has zero stars. The current bunch have never been associated with winning baseball at an elite level. Not one.

[DickyBennett]

They won't even truly begin their rebuild until after the guaranteed lockout coming next year.

This will be a big lockdown.

They need to go to a salary cap. The inbalance in the majors is so bad and it will everentually kill itself

Salary cap will never get implemented

[Barksdale's People]

They haven’t started a rebuild yet. Time will tell if that was needed vs. what they’ve done. All they’ve done in 2023 and this year was get a head start on the offseason by dealing FA’s to be. Zero bold moves, zero attempt to “start over”.

[Carp4Cy]

Foolishly not trading Fedde and Helsley last winter set back the rebuild at least a year, IMHO.

If they had traded Fedde and Helsley, then Arenado would not have nixed the Astro trade, IMHO. He would not have falsely believed the Cards could compete in 2025.

Our farm system would be better with the better prospects we would have gotten if we had traded high on Helsley and Fedde.

We would have missed Helsley in 2025 but we have several AAA relievers who should be better than average MLB relievers.
McGreevy would have done better than Fedde in 2025, so the 2025 win loss record would likely be better, not worse.

We also could have signed a few free agents with the money we saved by trading Helsley, Fedde, and Arenado. Then we could have traded them away at the 2025 trade deadline for even more prospects.

I don't see the Cards being competitive in 2026 or 2027.

False - those two wouldn't have gotten us nearly the prospects needed to accelerate a championship by a year. The only way it would have changed things is if Mo traded them for established MLB OFers with control - someone like Rasmus or Bader or even Ozuna in their (brief) primes. But that would have required money so it never would have happened.

The only way out of this is to spend.

[cbcardsfan]

Too long for some of us old people.

[Clubmaker2]

Foolishly not trading Fedde and Helsley last winter set back the rebuild at least a year, IMHO.

If they had traded Fedde and Helsley, then Arenado would not have nixed the Astro trade, IMHO. He would not have falsely believed the Cards could compete in 2025.

Our farm system would be better with the better prospects we would have gotten if we had traded high on Helsley and Fedde.

We would have missed Helsley in 2025 but we have several AAA relievers who should be better than average MLB relievers.
McGreevy would have done better than Fedde in 2025, so the 2025 win loss record would likely be better, not worse.

We also could have signed a few free agents with the money we saved by trading Helsley, Fedde, and Arenado. Then we could have traded them away at the 2025 trade deadline for even more prospects.

I don't see the Cards being competitive in 2026 or 2027.

Good thought, and that RH gone means no golfing partner. He needed to be gone before spring training arrivals.