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Cardinals4Life wrote: ↑28 Jul 2025 08:42 am A team built of young cost controlled players only, will never win a WS.

rockondlouie wrote: ↑28 Jul 2025 09:02 am 12-15,000 actual at most games.

Payroll slashed by BDWJr.

The franchise has hit rock bottom under Mo/Oli.

3dender wrote: ↑28 Jul 2025 08:49 am

Cardinals4Life wrote: ↑28 Jul 2025 08:42 am A team built of young cost controlled players only, will never win a WS.

What about 2015 Royals.

Futuregm2 wrote: ↑28 Jul 2025 10:18 am

3dender wrote: ↑28 Jul 2025 08:49 am

Cardinals4Life wrote: ↑28 Jul 2025 08:42 am A team built of young cost controlled players only, will never win a WS.

What about 2015 Royals.

I wouldn’t say they were young.

Perez (25)- young
Hosmer (25)- young
Infante (33)- not young
Escobar (28) - not young
Moustakas (26)- young-ish
Gordon (31)- not young
Cain (29) - not young
Rios (34) - not young
Morales (32)- not young
Zobrist (34) - not young

Their rotation had a couple young/young-ish starters, the rest were not young. Bullpen was mostly not young.

Cranny wrote: ↑28 Jul 2025 10:10 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑28 Jul 2025 09:02 am 12-15,000 actual at most games.

Payroll slashed by BDWJr.

The franchise has hit rock bottom under Mo/Oli.

Have you been there to see that, rock? I was there
last Thursday and it was a good crowd. And a good win.

rockondlouie wrote: ↑28 Jul 2025 08:41 am

ICCFIM2 wrote: ↑28 Jul 2025 01:06 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑27 Jul 2025 12:06 pm And that load of prospects Mo got in that selloff two years ago have amounted to a BIG FAT NOTHING!

Why I'm not confident he'll get much for Helsley, Maton, Matz etal if they're dealt unless C. Bloom is making the call.

That is not entirely true. Sagesse may be OK, Roby may be decent. King pitched OK last year. But, we were not trading A list guys last year. If they trade Helsley, they need to get someone better than Roby in return.

When it comes to trading a player like Donovan, who is an established ML player who should average around 3BWar per year, the haul needs to be spectacular. When teams like the Dodgers say they are interested, I am not certain how well I like their top 10 prospects. If they do want a trade, I want 3 of their top 10. They only have 1 pitcher in that group and several OFs, but they are all 2027 ETA. I want 2 of them.

You are right, none of the players we get in a deal like I just described may turn out to be good. But, we would have added 3 players that could be average to above avg ML players. When you look at baseball trade value, the Dodgers have some OF prospect, Zyhir Hope, who is in high A ball and has a 2027 ETA who they give the same trade value as Donovan. The proposed trades give us him, a lower pitching prospect and a lottery ticket. While the theoretical trade values match up, no way if I am the Cards do I make that trade. He could easily become the next Jordan Walker and we have nothing. I want him, plus their #1 prospect, plus their #6 prospect, a SP prospect. While the trade values I sure say that is an overpay for Donovan, if the Dodgers want another WS title and think Donovan gets them there, that is the price. But, the payoff is going to be years away...

100% true

NONE of the players Mo acquired in the last fire sale have amounted to anything.

Saggese (.228 .259 .331 .590) = JAG
Roby = INJURED all the time
King (5.31 ERA) = DFA material

None of the prospects Mo acquired in that selloff will ever be "average", re: 100 OPS+ players.

That said, let's hope C. Bloom has some say in this (hopefully) selloff of Helsley, Maton, Matz and ?????

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑27 Jul 2025 13:33 pm

Ronnie Dobbs wrote: ↑27 Jul 2025 12:16 pm Another rebuild? Did I miss the first one?

We got nine prospects for six or seven MLB players in 2023. Not sure what good it’s done.

Cardinals4Life wrote: ↑28 Jul 2025 08:42 am

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑28 Jul 2025 05:35 am Some people are still fixated on the fact that not all prospects work out. Since predicting the future for any player is an inexact science, it is of course going to be true that some prospects will work out and some won't. But that only makes the case for obtaining MORE prospects rather than fewer.

You have to develop a critical mass of young cost controlled players on your ML roster. And you have to do that despite the fact that some of your prospects will not work out. So you need to obtain - by drafting, signing, trading for, etc. an excess of prospects to do that.

The Cardinals do potentially need to get better at evaluating other teams' prospects to increase their hit rate on prospects they get back in trades, however.

You don't have to have an entire roster full of them. You still have to supplement your holes with some FAs and or trades. You have to have some vets too.

A team built of young cost controlled players only, will never win a WS.

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑28 Jul 2025 11:39 am

Cardinals4Life wrote: ↑28 Jul 2025 08:42 am

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑28 Jul 2025 05:35 am Some people are still fixated on the fact that not all prospects work out. Since predicting the future for any player is an inexact science, it is of course going to be true that some prospects will work out and some won't. But that only makes the case for obtaining MORE prospects rather than fewer.

You have to develop a critical mass of young cost controlled players on your ML roster. And you have to do that despite the fact that some of your prospects will not work out. So you need to obtain - by drafting, signing, trading for, etc. an excess of prospects to do that.

The Cardinals do potentially need to get better at evaluating other teams' prospects to increase their hit rate on prospects they get back in trades, however.

You don't have to have an entire roster full of them. You still have to supplement your holes with some FAs and or trades. You have to have some vets too.

A team built of young cost controlled players only, will never win a WS.

But you add them AFTER you have achieved your core of young cost controlled players so you know precisely what holes you need to fill.

rockondlouie wrote: ↑28 Jul 2025 10:56 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑28 Jul 2025 08:41 am

ICCFIM2 wrote: ↑28 Jul 2025 01:06 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑27 Jul 2025 12:06 pm And that load of prospects Mo got in that selloff two years ago have amounted to a BIG FAT NOTHING!

Why I'm not confident he'll get much for Helsley, Maton, Matz etal if they're dealt unless C. Bloom is making the call.

That is not entirely true. Sagesse may be OK, Roby may be decent. King pitched OK last year. But, we were not trading A list guys last year. If they trade Helsley, they need to get someone better than Roby in return.

When it comes to trading a player like Donovan, who is an established ML player who should average around 3BWar per year, the haul needs to be spectacular. When teams like the Dodgers say they are interested, I am not certain how well I like their top 10 prospects. If they do want a trade, I want 3 of their top 10. They only have 1 pitcher in that group and several OFs, but they are all 2027 ETA. I want 2 of them.

You are right, none of the players we get in a deal like I just described may turn out to be good. But, we would have added 3 players that could be average to above avg ML players. When you look at baseball trade value, the Dodgers have some OF prospect, Zyhir Hope, who is in high A ball and has a 2027 ETA who they give the same trade value as Donovan. The proposed trades give us him, a lower pitching prospect and a lottery ticket. While the theoretical trade values match up, no way if I am the Cards do I make that trade. He could easily become the next Jordan Walker and we have nothing. I want him, plus their #1 prospect, plus their #6 prospect, a SP prospect. While the trade values I sure say that is an overpay for Donovan, if the Dodgers want another WS title and think Donovan gets them there, that is the price. But, the payoff is going to be years away...

100% true

NONE of the players Mo acquired in the last fire sale have amounted to anything.

Saggese (.228 .259 .331 .590) = JAG
Roby = INJURED all the time
King (5.31 ERA) = DFA material

None of the prospects Mo acquired in that selloff will ever be "average", re: 100 OPS+ players.

That said, let's hope C. Bloom has some say in this (hopefully) selloff of Helsley, Maton, Matz and ?????

And as I mentioned above:


Katie Woo
@katiejwoo
#STLCards pitching prospect Tekoah Roby underwent Tommy John surgery on Friday and will likely not pitch until 2027, multiple sources tell The Athletic.

3dender wrote: ↑28 Jul 2025 10:30 am

Futuregm2 wrote: ↑28 Jul 2025 10:18 am

3dender wrote: ↑28 Jul 2025 08:49 am

Cardinals4Life wrote: ↑28 Jul 2025 08:42 am A team built of young cost controlled players only, will never win a WS.

What about 2015 Royals.

I wouldn’t say they were young.

Perez (25)- young
Hosmer (25)- young
Infante (33)- not young
Escobar (28) - not young
Moustakas (26)- young-ish
Gordon (31)- not young
Cain (29) - not young
Rios (34) - not young
Morales (32)- not young
Zobrist (34) - not young

Their rotation had a couple young/young-ish starters, the rest were not young. Bullpen was mostly not young.

What about cost-controlled tho.

45s wrote: ↑27 Jul 2025 11:58 am

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑27 Jul 2025 11:39 am People want to trade Donovan? Then what. 100 loss team for a year or two. Then what? We get 3 years out of the prospects and trade them for another rebuild?

It’s a barely .500 team…….Donovan, for his positives, is not elevating this club to contender status.

If they don’t move him, he will still be surrounded by mediocrity next year, so where is the value in keeping him?

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑28 Jul 2025 12:32 pm If you can trade him for top prospects you absolutely do it in my opinion. He’s not a power hitter he doesn’t have speed he’s not going to score 100 runs he’s not going to drive in 100 runs he will be around a.780 OPS hitter he’s versatile. That’s the kind of player that elevates a good to a very good team he’s not the type of player who elevates a mediocre or bad team to a good team and he’s not the type of player you should build a team around. If you can trade him for high end ready for the majors players you do it. The cardinals have lost with him they can lose without him