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Melville wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 14:21 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 13:54 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 13:33 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 11:13 am IF a team comes asking for M. Winn, then you absolutely listen.

If it's a great offer, then JJ playing SS since drafted means he's called up after Winn's dealt and playing SS.

Trade the shortstop with the best fielding % and best range factor in MLB to make room for a prospect? I'd rather have him play 3B and sit Arenado.

I'd trade Winn in a heart beat if he brought back a #2 starter with years of control or a hard hitting RH outfielder.

And that "prospect" is THE PLAYER that C. Bloom will build the team around, not Winn.

Might be advisable to take some extended looks at Saggese and Wetherholt at SS to determine if the glove plays before being too quick to move on from Winn.
Winn needs to stay right where he is for at least another year.

I'd trade Winn in a heart beat if he brought back a #2 starter with years of control or a hard hitting RH outfielder.

Fangraphs on JJ at SS:

Prospects TLDR: Wetherholt has looked better at shortstop since returning from his pre-draft hamstring injury, and should be a well-rounded everyday player either there or at second base.

Melville wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 14:22 pm

Shady wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 14:16 pm

Melville wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 14:12 pm

Shady wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 10:55 am Pretty soon, the Cardinals are going to need to open up a spot for Wetherholt. 2B or 3B. It's good to have Donovan's position flexibility.

I have addressed this several times.
The solution could not be more clear.
Trade Lars The Human Sushi-baar.
Move Donovan to LF.
Wetherholt, Gorman, Winn, Saggese divvy up 3B/SS/2B reps.
Easy.
Obvious.
Correct.

What are you doing with Arenado?

See the existing thread.
Demand he accept a trade or bench him.

I was about to post this until I saw you already had, so I'll just agree with you. RE Saggese, he can go back down as far as I'm concerned. He wasn't really one of the guys on my runway list for 2025. Neither was Scott for that matter.

Also, considering the Cardinals are likely not really competing for a playoff spot, they should just let Herrera catch the bulk of the remaining games to open up a DH spot for Gorman. I think we've seen enough of Pages to know he's not a key part of the future and Gorman needs 200 more ABs. Even that might not be enough, considering his PT has been so sparse until Herrera's latest injury.

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 14:29 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 13:45 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 13:35 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 13:05 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 13:03 pm

Youboughtit wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 11:41 am

Shady wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 10:55 am Pretty soon, the Cardinals are going to need to open up a spot for Wetherholt. 2B or 3B. It's good to have Donovan's position flexibility.

My prediction is Aranado stays, Wetherholt to 2B Donovan to LF and Burleson to RF. Noot, Walker, and Gorman are odd men out and on the block. Add Helsley, Matz, Fedde, Maton, and Mikolas and the Cardinals have a ton of pieces to move. Add a RH OF slugger to slit with Burleson

The reason you want to trade Helsley, Matz, Maton, Fedde and Mikolas is the same reason they won't bring a lot in return.

They’d get a return on the first 3 without a doubt

Matz vastly overpaid in his walk year. Maton 34 years old and average stats. Both middle relievers. Helsley in his walk year. If they can get a lot I'd trade them without hesitation.

Matz has a 5:1 strikeout to walk ratio, a .641 OPS against, and a 2.90 FIP. Every contender would want that in their bullpen.

Maton makes nothing, has a 2.50 ERA and 2 HR allowed in his last 70 appearances, and has a .618 OPS against in 2025

I don’t think you know what “average stats” are.

H/9 52/50 K/9 52/46 ERA 3.29 34 years old. Walk year of his contract. If we can get a lot for him I'd jump all over the deal and send a private jet to pick up the future star prospect we get.

No need to patronize, no stars coming back for them.

I don’t know what your numbers (52/50, 52/46) are in reference to.

Donny 3B
Winn SS
JJ 2b
WC 1b

woofy25 wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 14:32 pm

Youboughtit wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 11:41 am

Shady wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 10:55 am Pretty soon, the Cardinals are going to need to open up a spot for Wetherholt. 2B or 3B. It's good to have Donovan's position flexibility.

My prediction is Aranado stays, Wetherholt to 2B Donovan to LF and Burleson to RF. Noot, Walker, and Gorman are odd men out and on the block. Add Helsley, Matz, Fedde, Maton, and Mikolas and the Cardinals have a ton of pieces to move. Add a RH OF slugger to slit with Burleson

What type of player do you think the Cardinals can legitimately get for Walker and Gorman, individually? Based on the names above, how are they going to get a RH OF slugger in return? I'm guessing he has to play CF if you want Donovan and Burleson in the corners.

Gorman and Walker don’t have trade value to a contender but they do to a low market team because of cost controllable years left. They just are not getting regular ABs moving forward here.
Maybe Miami or Tampa would have interest. I would move them for another bat that is due for a raise or a hard throwing young pitcher. The platoon RF bat with power likely comes in the Helsley/Maton and Nootbar combo deal. He can be a AAA prospect or just a OF with some pop.

Goldfan wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 15:46 pm Donny 3B
Winn SS
JJ 2b
WC 1b

Donovan does not have the arm for 3b.

Goldfan wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 15:46 pm Donny 3B
Winn SS
JJ 2b
WC 1b

I think Bloom could move Donovan this offseason.

Melville wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 18:42 pm

Goldfan wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 15:46 pm Donny 3B
Winn SS
JJ 2b
WC 1b

Donovan does not have the arm for 3b.

Does Gorman have the consistent bat to be the regular 3B?

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 15:32 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 14:29 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 13:45 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 13:35 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 13:05 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 13:03 pm

Youboughtit wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 11:41 am

Shady wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 10:55 am Pretty soon, the Cardinals are going to need to open up a spot for Wetherholt. 2B or 3B. It's good to have Donovan's position flexibility.

My prediction is Aranado stays, Wetherholt to 2B Donovan to LF and Burleson to RF. Noot, Walker, and Gorman are odd men out and on the block. Add Helsley, Matz, Fedde, Maton, and Mikolas and the Cardinals have a ton of pieces to move. Add a RH OF slugger to slit with Burleson

The reason you want to trade Helsley, Matz, Maton, Fedde and Mikolas is the same reason they won't bring a lot in return.

They’d get a return on the first 3 without a doubt

Matz vastly overpaid in his walk year. Maton 34 years old and average stats. Both middle relievers. Helsley in his walk year. If they can get a lot I'd trade them without hesitation.

Matz has a 5:1 strikeout to walk ratio, a .641 OPS against, and a 2.90 FIP. Every contender would want that in their bullpen.

Maton makes nothing, has a 2.50 ERA and 2 HR allowed in his last 70 appearances, and has a .618 OPS against in 2025

I don’t think you know what “average stats” are.

H/9 52/50 K/9 52/46 ERA 3.29 34 years old. Walk year of his contract. If we can get a lot for him I'd jump all over the deal and send a private jet to pick up the future star prospect we get.

No need to patronize, no stars coming back for them.

I don’t know what your numbers (52/50, 52/46) are in reference to.

50 hits 52 innings. 46 strikeouts in 52 innings. ERA 3.29 Not great. Not terrible. Average. I doubt we will get much for him at his age. I'm also now ready to throw in the towel on the 2025 season. We'll see what the next 9 days look like.

Shady wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 19:01 pm

Melville wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 18:42 pm

Goldfan wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 15:46 pm Donny 3B
Winn SS
JJ 2b
WC 1b

Donovan does not have the arm for 3b.

Does Gorman have the consistent bat to be the regular 3B?

Even with his slow start, he has still produced an XBH in every 11 AB's.
About the same as Burleson and Donovan and Herrera.
Better than Mootbaar.
Better than N/A.
Better than Winn.
Better than Scott.
Better than Walker.
Better than Saggese.
The ONLY player who does damage more frequently than Gorman has been Contreras.
Gorman, again despite the slow start, drives in runs at a much higher rate in 2025 than every other Cardinal except Contreras and Herrera.
Bottom line.
He has been one of their 3 most productive hitters.

Melville wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 19:12 pm

Shady wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 19:01 pm

Melville wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 18:42 pm

Goldfan wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 15:46 pm Donny 3B
Winn SS
JJ 2b
WC 1b

Donovan does not have the arm for 3b.

Does Gorman have the consistent bat to be the regular 3B?

Even with his slow start, he has still produced an XBH in every 11 AB's.
About the same as Burleson and Donovan and Herrera.
Better than Mootbaar.
Better than N/A.
Better than Winn.
Better than Scott.
Better than Walker.
Better than Saggese.
The ONLY player who does damage more frequently than Gorman has been Contreras.
Gorman, again despite the slow start, drives in runs at a much higher rate in 2025 than every other Cardinal except Contreras and Herrera.
Bottom line.
He has been one of their 3 most productive hitters.

Gorman still strikes out way too much.

Shady wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 19:13 pm

Melville wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 19:12 pm

Shady wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 19:01 pm

Melville wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 18:42 pm

Goldfan wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 15:46 pm Donny 3B
Winn SS
JJ 2b
WC 1b

Donovan does not have the arm for 3b.

Does Gorman have the consistent bat to be the regular 3B?

Even with his slow start, he has still produced an XBH in every 11 AB's.
About the same as Burleson and Donovan and Herrera.
Better than Mootbaar.
Better than N/A.
Better than Winn.
Better than Scott.
Better than Walker.
Better than Saggese.
The ONLY player who does damage more frequently than Gorman has been Contreras.
Gorman, again despite the slow start, drives in runs at a much higher rate in 2025 than every other Cardinal except Contreras and Herrera.
Bottom line.
He has been one of their 3 most productive hitters.

Gorman still strikes out way too much.

Now you are moving the bases.

I think everyone knows Arenado is blocking up everything. With him still on the team, we have 4 players vying for 2nd base. Saggese can be the utility guy, you could move Donovan to LF, but you still have JJ, and Gorman. Would they consider JJ for CF? Even if Arenado is traded would that be an option. They could keep Donovan at 2B, where I think he belongs, and Gorman to 3B.
Herrera/ Burleson at LF, DH. Walker in RF. I think Arenado’s, Nootbaar and Even Scott need to go.

Youboughtit wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 16:43 pm

woofy25 wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 14:32 pm

Youboughtit wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 11:41 am

Shady wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 10:55 am Pretty soon, the Cardinals are going to need to open up a spot for Wetherholt. 2B or 3B. It's good to have Donovan's position flexibility.

My prediction is Aranado stays, Wetherholt to 2B Donovan to LF and Burleson to RF. Noot, Walker, and Gorman are odd men out and on the block. Add Helsley, Matz, Fedde, Maton, and Mikolas and the Cardinals have a ton of pieces to move. Add a RH OF slugger to slit with Burleson

What type of player do you think the Cardinals can legitimately get for Walker and Gorman, individually? Based on the names above, how are they going to get a RH OF slugger in return? I'm guessing he has to play CF if you want Donovan and Burleson in the corners.

Gorman and Walker don’t have trade value to a contender but they do to a low market team because of cost controllable years left. They just are not getting regular ABs moving forward here.
Maybe Miami or Tampa would have interest. I would move them for another bat that is due for a raise or a hard throwing young pitcher. The platoon RF bat with power likely comes in the Helsley/Maton and Nootbar combo deal. He can be a AAA prospect or just a OF with some pop.

They should get every AB possible the rest of the season.

woofy25 wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 20:44 pm

Youboughtit wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 16:43 pm

woofy25 wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 14:32 pm

Youboughtit wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 11:41 am

Shady wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 10:55 am Pretty soon, the Cardinals are going to need to open up a spot for Wetherholt. 2B or 3B. It's good to have Donovan's position flexibility.

My prediction is Aranado stays, Wetherholt to 2B Donovan to LF and Burleson to RF. Noot, Walker, and Gorman are odd men out and on the block. Add Helsley, Matz, Fedde, Maton, and Mikolas and the Cardinals have a ton of pieces to move. Add a RH OF slugger to slit with Burleson

What type of player do you think the Cardinals can legitimately get for Walker and Gorman, individually? Based on the names above, how are they going to get a RH OF slugger in return? I'm guessing he has to play CF if you want Donovan and Burleson in the corners.

Gorman and Walker don’t have trade value to a contender but they do to a low market team because of cost controllable years left. They just are not getting regular ABs moving forward here.
Maybe Miami or Tampa would have interest. I would move them for another bat that is due for a raise or a hard throwing young pitcher. The platoon RF bat with power likely comes in the Helsley/Maton and Nootbar combo deal. He can be a AAA prospect or just a OF with some pop.

They should get every AB possible the rest of the season.

Agreed. For another team. If they were going to fix it here it would have been done by now. They need a change of scenery and new coaches

25AB’s AAA
3 doubles
2 HR

360 .448 .800 1.248