STLtoday.com

Clubmaker2 wrote: ↑20 Jul 2025 11:34 am

Red7 wrote: ↑20 Jul 2025 08:07 am

AZ_Cardsfan wrote: ↑20 Jul 2025 07:34 am

RichieRichSTL wrote: ↑19 Jul 2025 20:29 pm You don't stubbornly keep running out Mikolas, Fedde if you care at all. Nor do you keep Helsley.

To me, it was an excuse to lower payroll, while trying to compete, not a true reset.

I would disagree. I believe they intended to see the kids play a lot. But that doesn't mean throwing pitchers not ready to the wolves at the major league level. Player development means having success and learning how to win at a level they are ready for.

But good intentions went out the window when the team refused to be doormats and looked like a possible contender. Add to that attendance crashed harder than they expected. So now they are trying to play both sides.

Even so there is also being smart with control. Of they are going nowhere this year why call up a kid and waste a year of control. I mean OK if they are dominating the minors but their best pitching prospects are not dominating. Truly the only minor leaguer dominating anything is JJ and I would not break the path he is on for this year.

Cardinals are between a rock and a hard place of their own making. They should have been honest and dealt Fedde and Helsley last December when both had lots of value. And signed some journeymen pitching to protect the kids in the minors from being exposed too early. But they didn't.

Now that the team has actually looked a little like a playoff contender and fans are kinda returning how can they throw in the towel on a complete rebuild? Self inflicted problem IMO.

For the umpteenth time…it wasn’t about being honest or not when it came to Fedde and Helsley. It was about maximizing their value. Neither had the track record that would bring maximum value. Both needed to prove that 2024 was not a fluke. If we were worried about regression, don’t you think other teams would be? Look at the weak return the Brewers got for Williams. Fedde’s value now isn’t much lower as he didn’t have that much to begin with. Had his season been reversed, had these last 4 starts come at the beginning instead of now, his value would be higher. Helsley, while not as successful as last year, will be in high demand, primarily because he’s stayed healthy.

Helsley didnt need to prove anything. Who invents this baloney. He was well established with incredible 2024 (league leader franchise record) and 2022 (0.742 whip) years. 2023 about half season total with injury, stats ok still with 1.06 whip in 2023. Absolutely nothing left for Helsley to prove. There is a story about Mo saying he wasnt going to trade RH, seems hard to know Mo true intent with RH .

Exactly. The only thing Helsley was proving was if he was as good as 2024. As you say, he's established as a legitimate closer. I think Mo was hedging on 2025 still.

Decent ML starters are at a premium. So, a low cost reinvent himself pitcher with his 2024 numbers has value. 1 year at 7.5M? Ace level pitching gets 30M+ AAV. He is a fraction of that and he is just 1Y. If you get anything near 2024 at 7.5M thats a bargain. You wont get a top prospect but you dont get a Dylan Carlson pittance return. Acting like you were going to get pennies for him anyway is a cope.

Mo kept him as he wanted to hedge on 2025. He rationalized that he could still move him at mid-season. Instead what he got was a team that's competing among a scrum of teams to make the playoffs whose starting pitching and Offense has been exposed and a atater who lost most of his trade value.

AZ_Cardsfan wrote: ↑20 Jul 2025 07:34 am

RichieRichSTL wrote: ↑19 Jul 2025 20:29 pm You don't stubbornly keep running out Mikolas, Fedde if you care at all. Nor do you keep Helsley.

To me, it was an excuse to lower payroll, while trying to compete, not a true reset.

I would disagree. I believe they intended to see the kids play a lot. But that doesn't mean throwing pitchers not ready to the wolves at the major league level. Player development means having success and learning how to win at a level they are ready for.

But good intentions went out the window when the team refused to be doormats and looked like a possible contender. Add to that attendance crashed harder than they expected. So now they are trying to play both sides.

Even so there is also being smart with control. Of they are going nowhere this year why call up a kid and waste a year of control. I mean OK if they are dominating the minors but their best pitching prospects are not dominating. Truly the only minor leaguer dominating anything is JJ and I would not break the path he is on for this year.

Cardinals are between a rock and a hard place of their own making. They should have been honest and dealt Fedde and Helsley last December when both had lots of value. And signed some journeymen pitching to protect the kids in the minors from being exposed too early. But they didn't.

Now that the team has actually looked a little like a playoff contender and fans are kinda returning how can they throw in the towel on a complete rebuild? Self inflicted problem IMO.

For a moment they looked like that. But at this point fans see a team that's struggling with starters and whose offense has struggled. I was thinking for a moment, maybe Mo might have stumbled onto something. But with their recent performance? It's very hard to see that.

Youboughtit wrote: ↑19 Jul 2025 23:42 pm

ramfandan wrote: ↑19 Jul 2025 22:05 pm

Youboughtit wrote: ↑19 Jul 2025 20:44 pm

RichieRichSTL wrote: ↑19 Jul 2025 20:29 pm You don't stubbornly keep running out Mikolas, Fedde if you care at all. Nor do you keep Helsley.

To me, it was an excuse to lower payroll, while trying to compete, not a true reset.

It was always about getting payroll under $100m by next season and blaming it on attendance. They have made a conscious decision to be a small market team. Glad fans saw it and have responded. If they want attendance they have to spend and win first

Yes, but they will counter and say Look at the Brewers , they spend less than us and their fan attendance is greater than ours this year.
They will always have some reason . That's how teams play the game. Deflect from themselves.

The Brewers don’t have the WS standard. That will no work in STL. Do you remember when Auggie died and his son tried this? There were no fans at all at games until Dewitt bought and spent to bring them back. It actually took STL longer to pull away than I thought it would because Dewitt lost his fastball long ago. That 2011 shouldn’t have allowed 14 years of support but it did and it’s going to get really bad if he doesn’t change course and get some legit superstars in their prime and spend to bring fans back. And by spend I mean $200m per season.

2015 was the last true good team IMHO and when their top starter and hitter were injured for most of the season, they failed to address that. That left a lane open for a hungry Cubs team swoop in and knock them out early.

Scherzer and a decent bat to cover for Holliday would have made them real threat in the playoffs. But, they decided a franchise changing, popular hometown favorite who was willing to take less was not something they could use. 2015.

RichieRichSTL wrote: ↑19 Jul 2025 20:29 pm You don't stubbornly keep running out Mikolas, Fedde if you care at all. Nor do you keep Helsley.

To me, it was an excuse to lower payroll, while trying to compete, not a true reset.

You might be right. I hope not, but I can't rule that out.

I think that they planned for this to be a rebuild year, even if they wouldn't come out and say that. However, they ran into problems first when a bunch of players didn't want to waive their NTC, as is their right, and also when they couldn't trade Arenado. And maybe they were holding out for more in trade for Fedde and Helsley and couldn't unload them either.

Going into the season they basically had a full rotation and lineup. McGreevy and Gorman would have been starters if a starter and Arenado were traded. But then they started to win games. That, along with a big portion of the fanbase not understanding how a rebuild works, this turned into a year where "see what they've got" once again becomes "battle for a wild card spot and sit a bunch of guys who need ABs" as they have done the past 4 years.

So they're going to keep running these guys out there because they apparently think it gives them the best chance to compete. And they'll probably need a 6 man rotation, or something like it, to get through the end of the year, because Liberatore is going to end up pitching more innings than he ever has soon Mikolas and Fedde are going to continue getting starts because who else do they have to cover innings and no one is going to trade for them. And Arenado is Arenado, so they're not going to bench him. That's how you end up getting yet one more year of mediocrity.

Youboughtit wrote: ↑19 Jul 2025 23:51 pm

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑19 Jul 2025 22:14 pm

RichieRichSTL wrote: ↑19 Jul 2025 20:29 pm You don't stubbornly keep running out Mikolas, Fedde if you care at all. Nor do you keep Helsley.

To me, it was an excuse to lower payroll, while trying to compete, not a true reset.

Besides McGreevey, who will be a #4, exactly what future 100 game winners are being blocked?

All our prospects keep getting hurt. We figured out we don’t have anything.

I do think 2-3 of this group will be quality future starters

1. Gray
2. Doyle
3. Matthews
4. McGreevy
5. Pallante
6. Libertore
7. Hence

The big issue is by the time they are ready Gray will be gone and they will still be likely 1 TOR SP short. I think Doyle may be the best but the draft report has him as a #2. I know fans will hope for more.

But like I said, who is being blocked besides McGreevey? Matthew and Doyle (and certainly Hence who is always hurt) aren’t ready and Libby and Palante and Grat are already in the rotation. Which counters the OP that we aren’t “seeing what we’ve got”.

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑20 Jul 2025 15:42 pmBut like I said, who is being blocked besides McGreevey? Matthew and Doyle (and certainly Hence who is always hurt) aren’t ready and Libby and Palante and Grat are already in the rotation. Which counters the OP that we aren’t “seeing what we’ve got”.

Exactly. I don't like watching Mikolas and Fedde run out there every five days, but the team isn't going anywhere, and they're calling up McGreevy to basically be a sixth starter to help Liberatore get through the end of the year, since he's going to pitch more innings than he ever has before soon. Who else are they going to bring up that is going to do any better? Like it or not, we're stuck with them until the end of the year.

Ronnie Dobbs wrote: ↑20 Jul 2025 15:49 pm

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑20 Jul 2025 15:42 pmBut like I said, who is being blocked besides McGreevey? Matthew and Doyle (and certainly Hence who is always hurt) aren’t ready and Libby and Palante and Grat are already in the rotation. Which counters the OP that we aren’t “seeing what we’ve got”.

Exactly. I don't like watching Mikolas and Fedde run out there every five days, but the team isn't going anywhere, and they're calling up McGreevy to basically be a sixth starter to help Liberatore get through the end of the year, since he's going to pitch more innings than he ever has before soon. Who else are they going to bring up that is going to do any better? Like it or not, we're stuck with them until the end of the year.

Fedde could have got some value. You can sign a journeyman pitcher if young arms fail. They burnt a valuable trade piece rather than just a little $$.

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑20 Jul 2025 15:42 pm

Youboughtit wrote: ↑19 Jul 2025 23:51 pm

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑19 Jul 2025 22:14 pm

RichieRichSTL wrote: ↑19 Jul 2025 20:29 pm You don't stubbornly keep running out Mikolas, Fedde if you care at all. Nor do you keep Helsley.

To me, it was an excuse to lower payroll, while trying to compete, not a true reset.

Besides McGreevey, who will be a #4, exactly what future 100 game winners are being blocked?

All our prospects keep getting hurt. We figured out we don’t have anything.

I do think 2-3 of this group will be quality future starters

1. Gray
2. Doyle
3. Matthews
4. McGreevy
5. Pallante
6. Libertore
7. Hence

The big issue is by the time they are ready Gray will be gone and they will still be likely 1 TOR SP short. I think Doyle may be the best but the draft report has him as a #2. I know fans will hope for more.

But like I said, who is being blocked besides McGreevey? Matthew and Doyle (and certainly Hence who is always hurt) aren’t ready and Libby and Palante and Grat are already in the rotation. Which counters the OP that we aren’t “seeing what we’ve got”.

The problem with starting Mikolas and Fedde is it’s a guaranteed loss. They are so far from serviceable something has to be done.

Ronnie Dobbs wrote: ↑20 Jul 2025 15:49 pm

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑20 Jul 2025 15:42 pmBut like I said, who is being blocked besides McGreevey? Matthew and Doyle (and certainly Hence who is always hurt) aren’t ready and Libby and Palante and Grat are already in the rotation. Which counters the OP that we aren’t “seeing what we’ve got”.

Exactly. I don't like watching Mikolas and Fedde run out there every five days, but the team isn't going anywhere, and they're calling up McGreevy to basically be a sixth starter to help Liberatore get through the end of the year, since he's going to pitch more innings than he ever has before soon. Who else are they going to bring up that is going to do any better? Like it or not, we're stuck with them until the end of the year.

Yes.McGreevy and Matz should have take those spots 3 starts ago

It's clear it was never meant to be 'see what they got' year:

1. WE’RE EXTENDING THE MANAGER SO HE DOESN’T FELL PRESSURE TO WIN……TO WIN - Per MoRan. Thanks for statement Goldfan. Keep an incompetent pretend leader, pretend game strategist, and pretend qualified MLB anything says you are just going through the motions to be competitive. Could not find ANYONE is this universe better than Blake??

2. Keeping MO Ran for 2025 under the guise he supposedly know so much inside info on Cards and MLB no one else in this universe should be GM/POBOy. SO his successor is not competent?? THen why hire him?? Yet another round of lies.

3. Ownership, especially JR DImWallet, has disdain for fans and in essence says if you want a competitive team the fans need to show up to games. Course the reality is the fans have shown up for games and the product quality is in free fall. Of course having to come forward and tell fans they had been siphoning off money from player development to pay for MO Rans horrid deals.

4. When the fans know the talent is lacking and FO claims to need yet another year to figure out how bad they really are.

Only mentally indigent people pretend to be the smartest people in the room especially when your failures play 162 games in front of fans.

Based on 2024-2025 performances, what they've got is six above average position players and seven above average pitchers (but 2 of them are leaving). Eleven returning above average players for their 26-man roster in 2026. Should be World Series favorites, I think.

RAA ORAA DRAA PA Player
28.0 5.7 22.3 1003 Winn
20.8 22.7 -1.9 443 Herrera
19.7 22.0 -2.3 1048 Donovan
18.5 22.3 -3.8 749 Contreras
8.3 -5.1 13.4 989 Arenado
0.5 8.0 -7.5 791 Nootbar
-2.5 -13.3 10.8 353 Siani
-3.4 -11.7 8.3 485 Scott
-4.4 -6.4 2.0 143 Saggese
-6.8 -3.8 -3.0 100 Fermin
-7.9 -18.0 10.1 472 Pages
-11.8 10.7 -22.5 919 Burleson
-13.1 -8.5 -4.6 628 Gorman
-28.3 -16.6 -11.7 377 Walker

RE24 TBF Pitcher
23.41 411 Helsley (free agent)
13.03 400 Leahy
11.97 367 Romero
9.99 1124 Gray
8.21 148 Maton (free agent)
7.98 172 McGreevy
2.67 100 Svanson
-0.86 780 Liberatore
-0.93 400 Matz (free agent)
-1.26 330 Fernandez
-1.55 959 Pallante
-1.90 137 O'Brien
-3.41 654 Fedde (free agent)
-5.87 134 Graceffo
-9.93 216 Roycroft
-11.08 421 King
-25.96 1116 Mikolas (free agent)