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Youboughtit wrote: ↑08 Jul 2025 18:25 pm

Colotiger wrote: ↑08 Jul 2025 17:46 pm I think it’s fairly simple. They had a great team in 2004 and got swept in the WS. They barely were above .500 in 2006 and won the WS. They edged into the playoffs on the final day in 2011 and won the WS again. I think this solidified their view that all you have to do with s get into the playoffs and anything can happen.

That team had 3 HOFers in their prime including a top 10 hitter of all time. This one is that team without Pujols Molina Wainwroght and Rolen. That team also had a top 5 farm system and a top 10 payroll. This one is currently 13 farm and 18 payroll. So less no superstars. Less payroll and less internal options. So you’re saying this is a comparable team to 2006? Not even close. That team would win 9/10 against this team. All but 6 teams are currently near .500 and in the last 20 years th only team to win with the current model is the Royals. It simply doesn’t work

No, I’m saying I think they saw a powerhouse in 2004 and a team that won 100 games in 2015 fail to win a title and two teams with fairly pedestrian records win titles and determined that you could win it all by just getting into the playoffs so the most important thing was to simply be “competitive”.

Colotiger wrote: ↑08 Jul 2025 20:06 pm

Youboughtit wrote: ↑08 Jul 2025 18:25 pm

Colotiger wrote: ↑08 Jul 2025 17:46 pm I think it’s fairly simple. They had a great team in 2004 and got swept in the WS. They barely were above .500 in 2006 and won the WS. They edged into the playoffs on the final day in 2011 and won the WS again. I think this solidified their view that all you have to do with s get into the playoffs and anything can happen.

That team had 3 HOFers in their prime including a top 10 hitter of all time. This one is that team without Pujols Molina Wainwroght and Rolen. That team also had a top 5 farm system and a top 10 payroll. This one is currently 13 farm and 18 payroll. So less no superstars. Less payroll and less internal options. So you’re saying this is a comparable team to 2006? Not even close. That team would win 9/10 against this team. All but 6 teams are currently near .500 and in the last 20 years th only team to win with the current model is the Royals. It simply doesn’t work

No, I’m saying I think they saw a powerhouse in 2004 and a team that won 100 games in 2015 fail to win a title and two teams with fairly pedestrian records win titles and determined that you could win it all by just getting into the playoffs so the most important thing was to simply be “competitive”.

They may have underperformed in the regular season but they were pre season predicted for 100 wins and #2 ranked team in baseball. May have “snuck in” because of injuries but that team was loaded. This one is average at best. If this team had that pedigree I would spend $ to watch it. So yes you can just get in if you have 3-4 all star future HOF players in their prime.

From a PR perspective, MO has done what BDW wants. Take the heat. Be the whipping boy for ownership. Turn fans criticism of the organization on himself. Make the team profitable, and along the way, make the playoffs a few times and win a championship. MO has done all of that really well, and BDW has been a loyal employer.

Youboughtit wrote: ↑08 Jul 2025 20:10 pm

Colotiger wrote: ↑08 Jul 2025 20:06 pm

Youboughtit wrote: ↑08 Jul 2025 18:25 pm

Colotiger wrote: ↑08 Jul 2025 17:46 pm I think it’s fairly simple. They had a great team in 2004 and got swept in the WS. They barely were above .500 in 2006 and won the WS. They edged into the playoffs on the final day in 2011 and won the WS again. I think this solidified their view that all you have to do with s get into the playoffs and anything can happen.

That team had 3 HOFers in their prime including a top 10 hitter of all time. This one is that team without Pujols Molina Wainwroght and Rolen. That team also had a top 5 farm system and a top 10 payroll. This one is currently 13 farm and 18 payroll. So less no superstars. Less payroll and less internal options. So you’re saying this is a comparable team to 2006? Not even close. That team would win 9/10 against this team. All but 6 teams are currently near .500 and in the last 20 years th only team to win with the current model is the Royals. It simply doesn’t work

No, I’m saying I think they saw a powerhouse in 2004 and a team that won 100 games in 2015 fail to win a title and two teams with fairly pedestrian records win titles and determined that you could win it all by just getting into the playoffs so the most important thing was to simply be “competitive”.

They may have underperformed in the regular season but they were pre season predicted for 100 wins and #2 ranked team in baseball. May have “snuck in” because of injuries but that team was loaded. This one is average at best. If this team had that pedigree I would spend $ to watch it. So yes you can just get in if you have 3-4 all star future HOF players in their prime.

The problem is some people are silly enough to believe that a teams regular season record is indicative of who the team is when they reach the post season and that’s just dumb. The 2004 cardinals team was great but they were missing some pitcher named carpenter when they made it to the post season. 2006 team crushed by injuries that got healthy going into the post season 2011 well check out the trade deadline the team was completely different pre and post deadline. The 2015 cardinals won 100 games because of great starting pitching but was in bad shape when the post season came around and Garcia had to start while sick

rightthinker4 wrote: ↑08 Jul 2025 21:01 pm From a PR perspective, MO has done what BDW wants. Take the heat. Be the whipping boy for ownership. Turn fans criticism of the organization on himself. Make the team profitable, and along the way, make the playoffs a few times and win a championship. MO has done all of that really well, and BDW has been a loyal employer.

Bingo. Exactly why he has kept his job to the fans dismay. Don’t get me wrong he made some bad moves but Dewitt has gotten no blowback for his unwillingness to spend. I truly believe there is a profit margin in place and it is the priority. That is why the TV situation was so big even tho they drew 3m fans and were a playoff team they cut payroll after 2023. If TV was going down payroll had too. But….then they received 100% of their agreed price and pocketed the profit. The owner saw he could go cheap and make more $. We are now in a cycle of thinking like Tampa and Cleveland. $80-$100 payroll. No stars. Hope for a chance at last WC and tell fans it’s MLB fault for letting the teams that want to win spend. No Mr Dewitt. You can win. Top 5 farm and top 10 payroll. Your choice but fans are not coming to watch without a WS caliber team and so future HOF superstars in their prime

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑08 Jul 2025 21:06 pm

Youboughtit wrote: ↑08 Jul 2025 20:10 pm

Colotiger wrote: ↑08 Jul 2025 20:06 pm

Youboughtit wrote: ↑08 Jul 2025 18:25 pm

Colotiger wrote: ↑08 Jul 2025 17:46 pm I think it’s fairly simple. They had a great team in 2004 and got swept in the WS. They barely were above .500 in 2006 and won the WS. They edged into the playoffs on the final day in 2011 and won the WS again. I think this solidified their view that all you have to do with s get into the playoffs and anything can happen.

That team had 3 HOFers in their prime including a top 10 hitter of all time. This one is that team without Pujols Molina Wainwroght and Rolen. That team also had a top 5 farm system and a top 10 payroll. This one is currently 13 farm and 18 payroll. So less no superstars. Less payroll and less internal options. So you’re saying this is a comparable team to 2006? Not even close. That team would win 9/10 against this team. All but 6 teams are currently near .500 and in the last 20 years th only team to win with the current model is the Royals. It simply doesn’t work

No, I’m saying I think they saw a powerhouse in 2004 and a team that won 100 games in 2015 fail to win a title and two teams with fairly pedestrian records win titles and determined that you could win it all by just getting into the playoffs so the most important thing was to simply be “competitive”.

They may have underperformed in the regular season but they were pre season predicted for 100 wins and #2 ranked team in baseball. May have “snuck in” because of injuries but that team was loaded. This one is average at best. If this team had that pedigree I would spend $ to watch it. So yes you can just get in if you have 3-4 all star future HOF players in their prime.

The problem is some people are silly enough to believe that a teams regular season record is indicative of who the team is when they reach the post season and that’s just dumb. The 2004 cardinals team was great but they were missing some pitcher named carpenter when they made it to the post season. 2006 team crushed by injuries that got healthy going into the post season 2011 well check out the trade deadline the team was completely different pre and post deadline. The 2015 cardinals won 100 games because of great starting pitching but was in bad shape when the post season came around and Garcia had to start while sick

Playoffs are about superstar power hitters and now domino strikeout pitchers and loaded bullpens. To think this team has a playoff build is laughable. It’s built completely wrong.

Youboughtit wrote: ↑08 Jul 2025 21:17 pm

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑08 Jul 2025 21:06 pm

Youboughtit wrote: ↑08 Jul 2025 20:10 pm

Colotiger wrote: ↑08 Jul 2025 20:06 pm

Youboughtit wrote: ↑08 Jul 2025 18:25 pm

Colotiger wrote: ↑08 Jul 2025 17:46 pm I think it’s fairly simple. They had a great team in 2004 and got swept in the WS. They barely were above .500 in 2006 and won the WS. They edged into the playoffs on the final day in 2011 and won the WS again. I think this solidified their view that all you have to do with s get into the playoffs and anything can happen.

That team had 3 HOFers in their prime including a top 10 hitter of all time. This one is that team without Pujols Molina Wainwroght and Rolen. That team also had a top 5 farm system and a top 10 payroll. This one is currently 13 farm and 18 payroll. So less no superstars. Less payroll and less internal options. So you’re saying this is a comparable team to 2006? Not even close. That team would win 9/10 against this team. All but 6 teams are currently near .500 and in the last 20 years th only team to win with the current model is the Royals. It simply doesn’t work

No, I’m saying I think they saw a powerhouse in 2004 and a team that won 100 games in 2015 fail to win a title and two teams with fairly pedestrian records win titles and determined that you could win it all by just getting into the playoffs so the most important thing was to simply be “competitive”.

They may have underperformed in the regular season but they were pre season predicted for 100 wins and #2 ranked team in baseball. May have “snuck in” because of injuries but that team was loaded. This one is average at best. If this team had that pedigree I would spend $ to watch it. So yes you can just get in if you have 3-4 all star future HOF players in their prime.

The problem is some people are silly enough to believe that a teams regular season record is indicative of who the team is when they reach the post season and that’s just dumb. The 2004 cardinals team was great but they were missing some pitcher named carpenter when they made it to the post season. 2006 team crushed by injuries that got healthy going into the post season 2011 well check out the trade deadline the team was completely different pre and post deadline. The 2015 cardinals won 100 games because of great starting pitching but was in bad shape when the post season came around and Garcia had to start while sick

Playoffs are about superstar power hitters and now domino strikeout pitchers and loaded bullpens. To think this team has a playoff build is laughable. It’s built completely wrong.

Yep, it has neither. Stupid roster construction by the resident POBO Mo.

Youboughtit wrote: ↑07 Jul 2025 17:06 pm Stop it with the Mo hate. He is obviously doing a good job of what Dewitt wants because the fans blame him for the owner being cheap. Fans need to realize Mo is there to be a scapegoat. His hands are tied. Until the payroll is top 10 there is no reason to support this owner. The recipe is proven. Every WS the Cardinals have won they had 2 things in common. Top 5 farm system and top 10 payroll. The farm is currently 11 with 4 top 100 and the #5 pick. The payroll however is $80m below the #10 spot and $40m coming off the books this year. The result is the 2011 team without a Pujols Molina Wainwright and Edmonds.

Sorry, John Mozeliak is the single biggest reason for the demise of the Cardinals.

Simply put, his “efforts” in Free Agency have been complete and total disasters.

Dewitt didn’t go out, pursue, and sign the likes of Leake, Gregerson, Miller, Mikolas, Matz, etc, etc. although he gave his approval.

No other organization would have kept Mozeliak this long.

JuanAgosto wrote: ↑07 Jul 2025 17:42 pm Mo has squandered millions over the past 15 years. Wiggington, Leake, Fowler, Holland, Gregerson, Miller, Cecil, and more im probably (thankfully), forgetting. BDW gave him a payroll to win with. Mo (upset) away so much of the old man's money, BDW clamped down on the budget.

Mo also placed a bunch of powerless puds around him to cement his own authority. Problem is, he is a disaster at judging talent and even worse at acquiring it. The man is so arrogant, he thought he could outsmart the league and totally tore up the "Cardinals Way" philosophy that created the success he once enjoyed. What a dumb[ash] putz!

BDW should take the blame for keeping that insufferable jackass around so long.

Nice post.

Bomber1 wrote: ↑09 Jul 2025 09:16 am

JuanAgosto wrote: ↑07 Jul 2025 17:42 pm Mo has squandered millions over the past 15 years. Wiggington, Leake, Fowler, Holland, Gregerson, Miller, Cecil, and more im probably (thankfully), forgetting. BDW gave him a payroll to win with. Mo (upset) away so much of the old man's money, BDW clamped down on the budget.

Mo also placed a bunch of powerless puds around him to cement his own authority. Problem is, he is a disaster at judging talent and even worse at acquiring it. The man is so arrogant, he thought he could outsmart the league and totally tore up the "Cardinals Way" philosophy that created the success he once enjoyed. What a dumb[ash] putz!

BDW should take the blame for keeping that insufferable jackass around so long.

Nice post.

+1

Bomber1 wrote: ↑09 Jul 2025 08:59 am

Youboughtit wrote: ↑07 Jul 2025 17:06 pm Stop it with the Mo hate. He is obviously doing a good job of what Dewitt wants because the fans blame him for the owner being cheap. Fans need to realize Mo is there to be a scapegoat. His hands are tied. Until the payroll is top 10 there is no reason to support this owner. The recipe is proven. Every WS the Cardinals have won they had 2 things in common. Top 5 farm system and top 10 payroll. The farm is currently 11 with 4 top 100 and the #5 pick. The payroll however is $80m below the #10 spot and $40m coming off the books this year. The result is the 2011 team without a Pujols Molina Wainwright and Edmonds.

Sorry, John Mozeliak is the single biggest reason for the demise of the Cardinals.

Simply put, his “efforts” in Free Agency have been complete and total disasters.

Dewitt didn’t go out, pursue, and sign the likes of Leake, Gregerson, Miller, Mikolas, Matz, etc, etc. although he gave his approval.

No other organization would have kept Mozeliak this long.

I except he’s taking the heat for a horrible owner that wants to spend as little as possible with no repercussions. You don’t think Mo would have liked to add better talent? He was hamstrung by a tightwad.

Youboughtit wrote: ↑09 Jul 2025 10:55 am

Bomber1 wrote: ↑09 Jul 2025 08:59 am

Youboughtit wrote: ↑07 Jul 2025 17:06 pm Stop it with the Mo hate. He is obviously doing a good job of what Dewitt wants because the fans blame him for the owner being cheap. Fans need to realize Mo is there to be a scapegoat. His hands are tied. Until the payroll is top 10 there is no reason to support this owner. The recipe is proven. Every WS the Cardinals have won they had 2 things in common. Top 5 farm system and top 10 payroll. The farm is currently 11 with 4 top 100 and the #5 pick. The payroll however is $80m below the #10 spot and $40m coming off the books this year. The result is the 2011 team without a Pujols Molina Wainwright and Edmonds.

Sorry, John Mozeliak is the single biggest reason for the demise of the Cardinals.

Simply put, his “efforts” in Free Agency have been complete and total disasters.

Dewitt didn’t go out, pursue, and sign the likes of Leake, Gregerson, Miller, Mikolas, Matz, etc, etc. although he gave his approval.

No other organization would have kept Mozeliak this long.

I except he’s taking the heat for a horrible owner that wants to spend as little as possible with no repercussions. You don’t think Mo would have liked to add better talent? He was hamstrung by a tightwad.

If that's true (and it might be), you'd think he'd move on to protect his own professional legacy and reputation. But I guess everyone has a price.

desertrat23 wrote: ↑09 Jul 2025 10:59 am

Youboughtit wrote: ↑09 Jul 2025 10:55 am

Bomber1 wrote: ↑09 Jul 2025 08:59 am

Youboughtit wrote: ↑07 Jul 2025 17:06 pm Stop it with the Mo hate. He is obviously doing a good job of what Dewitt wants because the fans blame him for the owner being cheap. Fans need to realize Mo is there to be a scapegoat. His hands are tied. Until the payroll is top 10 there is no reason to support this owner. The recipe is proven. Every WS the Cardinals have won they had 2 things in common. Top 5 farm system and top 10 payroll. The farm is currently 11 with 4 top 100 and the #5 pick. The payroll however is $80m below the #10 spot and $40m coming off the books this year. The result is the 2011 team without a Pujols Molina Wainwright and Edmonds.

Sorry, John Mozeliak is the single biggest reason for the demise of the Cardinals.

Simply put, his “efforts” in Free Agency have been complete and total disasters.

Dewitt didn’t go out, pursue, and sign the likes of Leake, Gregerson, Miller, Mikolas, Matz, etc, etc. although he gave his approval.

No other organization would have kept Mozeliak this long.

I except he’s taking the heat for a horrible owner that wants to spend as little as possible with no repercussions. You don’t think Mo would have liked to add better talent? He was hamstrung by a tightwad.

If that's true (and it might be), you'd think he'd move on to protect his own professional legacy and reputation. But I guess everyone has a price.

He won here and is getting paid well to be a scapegoat. This is a new position for me to take. I have always hated Mo until
I started looking deeper and now see what his role is and how he is being used by Dewitt. I think the Fans and team have a owner problem and it’s going to get worse

If it’s not the owner, it’s the POBO. If it’s not the POBO it’s the manager. And the best goes on.

Cranny wrote: ↑09 Jul 2025 12:24 pm If it’s not the owner, it’s the POBO. If it’s not the POBO it’s the manager. And the best goes on.

It's was all THREE

Thankfully Bill has reemerged and is dumping Mo, bringing in Bloom who (hopefully) will dump Oli.

Welcome back Bill!

Cranny wrote: ↑09 Jul 2025 12:24 pm If it’s not the owner, it’s the POBO. If it’s not the POBO it’s the manager. And the best goes on.

Only one person controls the other 2 and the budget.