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CCard wrote: ↑15 Jun 2025 08:50 am

moose-and-squirrel wrote: ↑15 Jun 2025 08:45 am

CCard wrote: ↑15 Jun 2025 08:38 am

Braund241 wrote: ↑14 Jun 2025 21:44 pm

CCard wrote: ↑14 Jun 2025 21:35 pm

Adam2 wrote: ↑14 Jun 2025 19:38 pm

Baseball Savant wrote: ↑14 Jun 2025 19:14 pm Give Gorman 400-500 AB and see what happens

He will hit 20-25 homers with a 230 average. Ton of Ks and incredibly streaky, carrying your team at times and burying your team at times. I'm not siding either way, do you want that or don't want that?

Still waiting for the "carry the team" phase. Maybe today is the start. LOL

No joke. Dude hits .216. Like Nootbar, Scott, etc. Hitting a home run one a month doesn’t make you a superstar.

Indeed. He has a ton of potential but is failing on the grand stage. He's failed to make adjustments that must be made to succeed in the big leagues. The strikeouts must be brought under control. He should concentrate on driving the ball to the opposite field. Do it enough and pitchers will have to come back in to him, then he could start pulling those pitches out of the park. It's not rocket science and has been around since baseball began. My other pet peeve is that it looked like Gorman was dogging it in the field and that is patently unacceptable. Maybe I'm out of bounds but I can't remember when I've seen him dive for a ball. I know he's really a 3rd baseman and range limited so I probably should cut him some slack on that. As for Noot, he's been around long enough to know what's going on, yet recently he's fallen into the pull happy trap. Pitchers notice.

guess you missed him going into shallow RF yesterday to make an over the shoulder catch? quite impressive

That's great, but one exceptional play doesn't make a guy Ozzie Smith, so save it.

Nolan Gorman has a defensive rating that is considered below average, with key attributes including a fielding rating of 48, arm strength of 51, and reaction time of 53. His overall defensive performance has been a work in progress as he learns new positions.

Not my words, just the way it is. If he's not hitting then he's a liability. I really like the promise, but TON and other players had a lot of promise but couldn't hold up also. Comes a time when you have to perform.

No one expects him to be Ozzie, so shut it. What's expected is homers mixed with a bunch of Ks. In the past 28 days he's hitting .302 with OBP .375 and SLG .605. It's time to see how long he can continue. If he can stay around .240, .330, .480 he has a ton of value. Just in case you've forgotten, that's very close to his 2023 numbers.

HorseTrader wrote: ↑15 Jun 2025 11:16 am

CCard wrote: ↑15 Jun 2025 08:50 am

moose-and-squirrel wrote: ↑15 Jun 2025 08:45 am

CCard wrote: ↑15 Jun 2025 08:38 am

Braund241 wrote: ↑14 Jun 2025 21:44 pm

CCard wrote: ↑14 Jun 2025 21:35 pm

Adam2 wrote: ↑14 Jun 2025 19:38 pm

Baseball Savant wrote: ↑14 Jun 2025 19:14 pm Give Gorman 400-500 AB and see what happens

He will hit 20-25 homers with a 230 average. Ton of Ks and incredibly streaky, carrying your team at times and burying your team at times. I'm not siding either way, do you want that or don't want that?

Still waiting for the "carry the team" phase. Maybe today is the start. LOL

No joke. Dude hits .216. Like Nootbar, Scott, etc. Hitting a home run one a month doesn’t make you a superstar.

Indeed. He has a ton of potential but is failing on the grand stage. He's failed to make adjustments that must be made to succeed in the big leagues. The strikeouts must be brought under control. He should concentrate on driving the ball to the opposite field. Do it enough and pitchers will have to come back in to him, then he could start pulling those pitches out of the park. It's not rocket science and has been around since baseball began. My other pet peeve is that it looked like Gorman was dogging it in the field and that is patently unacceptable. Maybe I'm out of bounds but I can't remember when I've seen him dive for a ball. I know he's really a 3rd baseman and range limited so I probably should cut him some slack on that. As for Noot, he's been around long enough to know what's going on, yet recently he's fallen into the pull happy trap. Pitchers notice.

guess you missed him going into shallow RF yesterday to make an over the shoulder catch? quite impressive

That's great, but one exceptional play doesn't make a guy Ozzie Smith, so save it.

Nolan Gorman has a defensive rating that is considered below average, with key attributes including a fielding rating of 48, arm strength of 51, and reaction time of 53. His overall defensive performance has been a work in progress as he learns new positions.

Not my words, just the way it is. If he's not hitting then he's a liability. I really like the promise, but TON and other players had a lot of promise but couldn't hold up also. Comes a time when you have to perform.

No one expects him to be Ozzie, so shut it. What's expected is homers mixed with a bunch of Ks. In the past 28 days he's hitting .302 with OBP .375 and SLG .605. It's time to see how long he can continue. If he can stay around .240, .330, .480 he has a ton of value. Just in case you've forgotten, that's very close to his 2023 numbers.

"Below Average Defensively" and "In the past 28 days" are the sign of a weak and losing player. And you're happy with it apparently. If he isn't above average offensively then he's not viable at 2nd. If he dogs it then he's not viable at all. Spare me your proselytizing about how good he is. 4 HR and 17 rbi ain't cutting it. He's presently sporting a 0.0 WAR. I don't mind him playing some more but if he doesn't improve soon, he needs to be sent somewhere.

moose-and-squirrel wrote: ↑15 Jun 2025 09:00 am

CCard wrote: ↑15 Jun 2025 08:50 am

moose-and-squirrel wrote: ↑15 Jun 2025 08:45 am

CCard wrote: ↑15 Jun 2025 08:38 am

Braund241 wrote: ↑14 Jun 2025 21:44 pm

CCard wrote: ↑14 Jun 2025 21:35 pm

Adam2 wrote: ↑14 Jun 2025 19:38 pm

Baseball Savant wrote: ↑14 Jun 2025 19:14 pm Give Gorman 400-500 AB and see what happens

He will hit 20-25 homers with a 230 average. Ton of Ks and incredibly streaky, carrying your team at times and burying your team at times. I'm not siding either way, do you want that or don't want that?

Still waiting for the "carry the team" phase. Maybe today is the start. LOL

No joke. Dude hits .216. Like Nootbar, Scott, etc. Hitting a home run one a month doesn’t make you a superstar.

Indeed. He has a ton of potential but is failing on the grand stage. He's failed to make adjustments that must be made to succeed in the big leagues. The strikeouts must be brought under control. He should concentrate on driving the ball to the opposite field. Do it enough and pitchers will have to come back in to him, then he could start pulling those pitches out of the park. It's not rocket science and has been around since baseball began. My other pet peeve is that it looked like Gorman was dogging it in the field and that is patently unacceptable. Maybe I'm out of bounds but I can't remember when I've seen him dive for a ball. I know he's really a 3rd baseman and range limited so I probably should cut him some slack on that. As for Noot, he's been around long enough to know what's going on, yet recently he's fallen into the pull happy trap. Pitchers notice.

guess you missed him going into shallow RF yesterday to make an over the shoulder catch? quite impressive

That's great, but one exceptional play doesn't make a guy Ozzie Smith, so save it.

Nolan Gorman has a defensive rating that is considered below average, with key attributes including a fielding rating of 48, arm strength of 51, and reaction time of 53. His overall defensive performance has been a work in progress as he learns new positions.

Not my words, just the way it is. If he's not hitting then he's a liability. I really like the promise, but TON and other players had a lot of promise but couldn't hold up also. Comes a time when you have to perform.

given playing time, I'm guessing he's an adequate fielder

just needs the playing time to find out. we shall see

Adequate? Not when he'(poop) 4 HR and barely his weight. He either needs to make adjustments or be sent some where. The bench is no place for him.

rockondlouie wrote: ↑15 Jun 2025 09:02 am Right now both Gorman and Burleson have to get PA's against both sides of the mound.

Even when Donny gets back Gorman has to stay in the lineup if this is truly a "runway" season.

We saw something Gorman and only Gorman posses in the entire organization yesterday, RAW POWER!

Let's hope Oli doesn't screw it up and platoons him.

I play both until they show they can't handle it (ala Noot right now).

No, I don't agree. If you need to learn to hit lefty pitching then you need to do it in the minors.

CCard wrote: ↑15 Jun 2025 13:00 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑15 Jun 2025 09:02 am Right now both Gorman and Burleson have to get PA's against both sides of the mound.

Even when Donny gets back Gorman has to stay in the lineup if this is truly a "runway" season.

We saw something Gorman and only Gorman posses in the entire organization yesterday, RAW POWER!

Let's hope Oli doesn't screw it up and platoons him.

I play both until they show they can't handle it (ala Noot right now).

No, I don't agree. If you need to learn to hit lefty pitching then you need to do it in the minors.

And you'd be wrong

And contrary to some posters belief he's actually had some success in MLB vs LHP slashing .260 .360 .479 .840 vs them in 2023 which was actually a better slash line in 2023 than he had vs RHP!

I get it, he's regressed.

But in the "runway" season, he needs to play vs RHP AND LHP.

JMO

rockondlouie wrote: ↑16 Jun 2025 08:24 am

CCard wrote: ↑15 Jun 2025 13:00 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑15 Jun 2025 09:02 am Right now both Gorman and Burleson have to get PA's against both sides of the mound.

Even when Donny gets back Gorman has to stay in the lineup if this is truly a "runway" season.

We saw something Gorman and only Gorman posses in the entire organization yesterday, RAW POWER!

Let's hope Oli doesn't screw it up and platoons him.

I play both until they show they can't handle it (ala Noot right now).

No, I don't agree. If you need to learn to hit lefty pitching then you need to do it in the minors.

And you'd be wrong

And contrary to some posters belief he's actually had some success in MLB vs LHP slashing .260 .360 .479 .840 vs them in 2023 which was actually a better slash line in 2023 than he had vs RHP!

I get it, he's regressed.

But in the "runway" season, he needs to play vs RHP AND LHP.

JMO

By all means let walker and gorman play the rest of the season and if they both continue to stink trade them for a bag of balls

Honky Tonk Man wrote: ↑16 Jun 2025 08:29 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑16 Jun 2025 08:24 am

CCard wrote: ↑15 Jun 2025 13:00 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑15 Jun 2025 09:02 am Right now both Gorman and Burleson have to get PA's against both sides of the mound.

Even when Donny gets back Gorman has to stay in the lineup if this is truly a "runway" season.

We saw something Gorman and only Gorman posses in the entire organization yesterday, RAW POWER!

Let's hope Oli doesn't screw it up and platoons him.

I play both until they show they can't handle it (ala Noot right now).

No, I don't agree. If you need to learn to hit lefty pitching then you need to do it in the minors.

And you'd be wrong

And contrary to some posters belief he's actually had some success in MLB vs LHP slashing .260 .360 .479 .840 vs them in 2023 which was actually a better slash line in 2023 than he had vs RHP!

I get it, he's regressed.

But in the "runway" season, he needs to play vs RHP AND LHP.

JMO

By all means let walker and gorman play the rest of the season and if they both continue to stink trade them for a bag of balls

Melville wrote: ↑14 Jun 2025 20:29 pm

Baseball Savant wrote: ↑14 Jun 2025 19:14 pm Give Gorman 400-500 AB and see what happens

500 Pa's = 25+ HR

Yeah, quite possible, but combined with weak defense, poor baserunning, and possibly a chronic back condition, how valuable is that 25 HR/low BA guy?
Maybe if Herrera can learn to play a decent LF, the DH could open up for Gorman next year, but Burly seems to be currently favored over Gorman by the Cards for that potential opening.
Possibly trade one of Gorman/Burly while both still have some moderate value?

rockondlouie wrote: ↑16 Jun 2025 08:24 am

CCard wrote: ↑15 Jun 2025 13:00 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑15 Jun 2025 09:02 am Right now both Gorman and Burleson have to get PA's against both sides of the mound.

Even when Donny gets back Gorman has to stay in the lineup if this is truly a "runway" season.

We saw something Gorman and only Gorman posses in the entire organization yesterday, RAW POWER!

Let's hope Oli doesn't screw it up and platoons him.

I play both until they show they can't handle it (ala Noot right now).

No, I don't agree. If you need to learn to hit lefty pitching then you need to do it in the minors.

And you'd be wrong

And contrary to some posters belief he's actually had some success in MLB vs LHP slashing .260 .360 .479 .840 vs them in 2023 which was actually a better slash line in 2023 than he had vs RHP!

I get it, he's regressed.

But in the "runway" season, he needs to play vs RHP AND LHP.

JMO

That was before the pitchers had the "book" on him. How's that going now?

Nolan Gorman is 3-22 with a home run and 4 RBIs in 28 plate appearances against left-handed pitchers this season.

Admittedly that is a fairly small sample size, but why do you think that is? Could it be because they don't let him start against lefty pitching? Because he sucks at it?

Geo Barnett wrote: ↑14 Jun 2025 16:54 pm Don't play against lefties, right oddball oli?

He's 3 for 22 against lefty pitching. What's your point?

CCard wrote: ↑16 Jun 2025 08:44 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑16 Jun 2025 08:24 am

CCard wrote: ↑15 Jun 2025 13:00 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑15 Jun 2025 09:02 am Right now both Gorman and Burleson have to get PA's against both sides of the mound.

Even when Donny gets back Gorman has to stay in the lineup if this is truly a "runway" season.

We saw something Gorman and only Gorman posses in the entire organization yesterday, RAW POWER!

Let's hope Oli doesn't screw it up and platoons him.

I play both until they show they can't handle it (ala Noot right now).

No, I don't agree. If you need to learn to hit lefty pitching then you need to do it in the minors.

And you'd be wrong

And contrary to some posters belief he's actually had some success in MLB vs LHP slashing .260 .360 .479 .840 vs them in 2023 which was actually a better slash line in 2023 than he had vs RHP!

I get it, he's regressed.

But in the "runway" season, he needs to play vs RHP AND LHP.

JMO

That was before the pitchers had the "book" on him. How's that going now?

Nolan Gorman is 3-22 with a home run and 4 RBIs in 28 plate appearances against left-handed pitchers this season.

Admittedly that is a fairly small sample size, but why do you think that is? Could it be because they don't let him start against lefty pitching? Because he sucks at it?

Not well and we're in agreement he's regressed from those 2023 numbers vs LHP.

But how the h e l l is going to Memphis where he'd face inferior LHP going to help him?

Answer, it won't and he's NOT going to Memphis.

Again, this is the "runway" season and there are no two players more on that "runway" than Gorman and J. Walker.

BTW

Gorman in his last 15 GP:
3 HR
8 RBI
.350 .422 .675 1.097

He plays vs RHP & LHP

If he flops, then trade his a z z this offseason.

JDW wrote: ↑16 Jun 2025 08:41 am

Melville wrote: ↑14 Jun 2025 20:29 pm

Baseball Savant wrote: ↑14 Jun 2025 19:14 pm Give Gorman 400-500 AB and see what happens

500 Pa's = 25+ HR

Yeah, quite possible, but combined with weak defense, poor baserunning, and possibly a chronic back condition, how valuable is that 25 HR/low BA guy?
Maybe if Herrera can learn to play a decent LF, the DH could open up for Gorman next year, but Burly seems to be currently favored over Gorman by the Cards for that potential opening.
Possibly trade one of Gorman/Burly while both still have some moderate value?

"How valuable is that 25 HR/low BA guy?'
He is producing an RBI in every 8.4 PA's.
Vastly better than Nootbaar who is at 11.1.
And Donovan at 10.8.
And Burleson at 10.1.
And Scott at 11.0.
He is 25% more efficient - or more - than any LH hitter on the team.
His OBP is nearly identical to that of Nootbaar, Scott, and Winn.
His SLG is higher than Arenado, Winn, Nootbaar, Walker, Scott, and Pages.
His OPS is higher than Winn, Arenado, Nootbaar, Scott, Walker, and Pages.
in 1322 career PA's (the equivalent of 2 full seasons), he has produced 64 HR, 178 RBI, and 162 runs - or a full year average of 32 HR/89 RBI/81 runs.
How valuable?
Extremely.
Unquestionably the most valuable LH hitting position player on the roster behind Donovan.

Melville wrote: ↑16 Jun 2025 19:04 pm

JDW wrote: ↑16 Jun 2025 08:41 am

Melville wrote: ↑14 Jun 2025 20:29 pm

Baseball Savant wrote: ↑14 Jun 2025 19:14 pm Give Gorman 400-500 AB and see what happens

500 Pa's = 25+ HR

Yeah, quite possible, but combined with weak defense, poor baserunning, and possibly a chronic back condition, how valuable is that 25 HR/low BA guy?
Maybe if Herrera can learn to play a decent LF, the DH could open up for Gorman next year, but Burly seems to be currently favored over Gorman by the Cards for that potential opening.
Possibly trade one of Gorman/Burly while both still have some moderate value?

"How valuable is that 25 HR/low BA guy?'
He is producing an RBI in every 8.4 PA's.
Vastly better than Nootbaar who is at 11.1.
And Donovan at 10.8.
And Burleson at 10.1.
And Scott at 11.0.
He is 25% more efficient - or more - than any LH hitter on the team.
His OBP is nearly identical to that of Nootbaar, Scott, and Winn.
His SLG is higher than Arenado, Winn, Nootbaar, Walker, Scott, and Pages.
His OPS is higher than Winn, Arenado, Nootbaar, Scott, Walker, and Pages.
in 1322 career PA's (the equivalent of 2 full seasons), he has produced 64 HR, 178 RBI, and 162 runs - or a full year average of 32 HR/89 RBI/81 runs.
How valuable?
Extremely.
Unquestionably the most valuable LH hitting position player on the roster behind Donovan.

Numbers never lie yet Liars can figure.

In a Small Sample Size 23 has an Outsize Effect.

In order for him to become an asset as opposed to a liability more often than not:

He Must Cut Down On HIs Strike Outs.

Significantly.

Fix that and you might have yourself a Cog in the lineup.

Yet, don't see the back holding up long term under any scenario.

Good stuff from Bernie:

5. Nolan Gorman, warming trend. And it's also a warning to the pitchers. Among Cardinals that have 45 plate appearances since May 26, Gorman leads the team in batting average (.350), on-base percentage (.422), slugging percentage (.675), OPS (1.097), walk rate (11.1%) and wRC+. Per wRC+, Gorman is 105 percent above league average offensively since May 26.

6. Gorman a go-go, part two: Among left handed hitters in the National League that have at least 45 plate appearances since May 26, Gorman ranks 4th in batting average, 9th in on-base rate, 2nd in slugging, 5th in OPS, and 4th in wRC+. This is the proverbial small sample, but here’s my point: we were waiting for Gorman to produce after rebuilding his plate approach to have improved plate discipline. Well, he’s starting to put up numbers.

7. Gorman’s bat speed has increased. Before May 26, his average bat speed on a swing was 70.8 miles per hour. But over his last 16 games, that average bat speed has increased to 72.7 miles per hour. That’s a big difference. And we can see that in Gorman’s stronger numbers against four-seam fastballs: since May 26, Gorman is 6 for 7 (.857) with two doubles when smashing four-seam fastballs. Before May 26, Gorman was 2 for 22 with seven strikeouts against the four-seam fastballs.

8. Gorman, again: By the way, over his breakout stretch of offense since May 26, Gorman has pummeled right-handed pitchers for a .433 average and .767 slugging percentage. His totals over that time include two doubles, a triple and two homers. Gorman is taking better and more competitive at-bats against lefties.

Dazepster wrote: ↑16 Jun 2025 19:13 pm

Melville wrote: ↑16 Jun 2025 19:04 pm

JDW wrote: ↑16 Jun 2025 08:41 am

Melville wrote: ↑14 Jun 2025 20:29 pm

Baseball Savant wrote: ↑14 Jun 2025 19:14 pm Give Gorman 400-500 AB and see what happens

500 Pa's = 25+ HR

Yeah, quite possible, but combined with weak defense, poor baserunning, and possibly a chronic back condition, how valuable is that 25 HR/low BA guy?
Maybe if Herrera can learn to play a decent LF, the DH could open up for Gorman next year, but Burly seems to be currently favored over Gorman by the Cards for that potential opening.
Possibly trade one of Gorman/Burly while both still have some moderate value?

"How valuable is that 25 HR/low BA guy?'
He is producing an RBI in every 8.4 PA's.
Vastly better than Nootbaar who is at 11.1.
And Donovan at 10.8.
And Burleson at 10.1.
And Scott at 11.0.
He is 25% more efficient - or more - than any LH hitter on the team.
His OBP is nearly identical to that of Nootbaar, Scott, and Winn.
His SLG is higher than Arenado, Winn, Nootbaar, Walker, Scott, and Pages.
His OPS is higher than Winn, Arenado, Nootbaar, Scott, Walker, and Pages.
in 1322 career PA's (the equivalent of 2 full seasons), he has produced 64 HR, 178 RBI, and 162 runs - or a full year average of 32 HR/89 RBI/81 runs.
How valuable?
Extremely.
Unquestionably the most valuable LH hitting position player on the roster behind Donovan.

Numbers never lie yet Liars can figure.

In a Small Sample Size 23 has an Outsize Effect.

In order for him to become an asset as opposed to a liability more often than not:

He Must Cut Down On HIs Strike Outs.

Significantly.

Fix that and you might have yourself a Cog in the lineup.

Yet, don't see the back holding up long term under any scenario.

His K% is down to 27.3%. And his chase rate is down to a career low 23.8%. And his contact% are career bests at 73% and swing and miss% a career low at 12.2%. So he’s been much improved in those areas this year.

rockondlouie wrote: ↑16 Jun 2025 08:51 am

CCard wrote: ↑16 Jun 2025 08:44 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑16 Jun 2025 08:24 am

CCard wrote: ↑15 Jun 2025 13:00 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑15 Jun 2025 09:02 am Right now both Gorman and Burleson have to get PA's against both sides of the mound.

Even when Donny gets back Gorman has to stay in the lineup if this is truly a "runway" season.

We saw something Gorman and only Gorman posses in the entire organization yesterday, RAW POWER!

Let's hope Oli doesn't screw it up and platoons him.

I play both until they show they can't handle it (ala Noot right now).

No, I don't agree. If you need to learn to hit lefty pitching then you need to do it in the minors.

And you'd be wrong

And contrary to some posters belief he's actually had some success in MLB vs LHP slashing .260 .360 .479 .840 vs them in 2023 which was actually a better slash line in 2023 than he had vs RHP!

I get it, he's regressed.

But in the "runway" season, he needs to play vs RHP AND LHP.

JMO

That was before the pitchers had the "book" on him. How's that going now?

Nolan Gorman is 3-22 with a home run and 4 RBIs in 28 plate appearances against left-handed pitchers this season.

Admittedly that is a fairly small sample size, but why do you think that is? Could it be because they don't let him start against lefty pitching? Because he sucks at it?

Not well and we're in agreement he's regressed from those 2023 numbers vs LHP.

But how the h e l l is going to Memphis where he'd face inferior LHP going to help him?

Answer, it won't and he's NOT going to Memphis.

Again, this is the "runway" season and there are no two players more on that "runway" than Gorman and J. Walker.

BTW

Gorman in his last 15 GP:
3 HR
8 RBI
.350 .422 .675 1.097

He plays vs RHP & LHP

If he flops, then trade his a z z this offseason.

100%. He also has a 27% strikeout rate (first season below 30%) and a 12.5% walk rate (career high). He may turn back into a pumpkin by the end of the year, but let him play.