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nebfan wrote: ↑08 Jun 2025 20:40 pm What about walker? He has improved defensively but I really don't see him as much better than burly. Burleys arm is as good or better and his bat is way better. We would be better served with burley in left and nootbaar in right and finding a center fielder that can hit

Burly's range would be better in LF. But he has a superior arm to Noot's and, possibly, Walker's in RF. Burleson can fricken' hit against anybody.

Shady wrote: ↑08 Jun 2025 21:26 pm

nebfan wrote: ↑08 Jun 2025 20:40 pm What about walker? He has improved defensively but I really don't see him as much better than burly. Burleys arm is as good or better and his bat is way better. We would be better served with burley in left and nootbaar in right and finding a center fielder that can hit

Burly;s range would be better in LF. But he has a superior arm to Noot's and, possibly, Walker's in RF.

Burleson’s arm is fine but you’re kidding about being better than Walker’s, right? It’s always been a plus tool for Walker. Good accuracy and pretty sure he has hit 99 in games. Best outfield arm since Hayward.

Burleson arm might be league average.

Shady wrote: ↑08 Jun 2025 19:51 pm

Monsieur De Treville wrote: ↑08 Jun 2025 19:16 pm

OregonRedbird wrote: ↑08 Jun 2025 18:23 pm I expected the onslaught of benign corrective criticism and statistically it’s mostly legit, but I’m focused more on the now and what’s to come. There have been many ‘flawed and imperfect ballplayers that didn’t fit the idealized superstar profile but just hit. I think Burleson is one of those and his bat is real, bat to ball skills real and he will continue to improve, including against lefties, with ABs. Far more than a bench/depth piece, he’s a hitter. Lots of shots than turn into outs, but that’s baseball.

Fair enough.

But...

If he's all that you say he is...can you then explain his career 98 OPS+? His career 0.8 fWAR? His career .405 SLG%? In 1076 career ABs and he's 26.

Could it be he's just riding a hot streak at this time and will revert to form in a few weeks?

Frenchy, surely you''ll admit that Contreras also goes through his share of hots and colds, too. Please try to be open minded for a change.

Contreras career .808 OPS
Burleson career .717 OPS

Why would anyone try to compare these two hitters?

Shady wrote: ↑08 Jun 2025 20:34 pm Burly is going to keep improving, as a hitter, like we're seeing now against LHP through his 20's. He's a really good hitter, overall. Marmol knows that.

.461 OPS vs lefties is not only awful, it proves Burleson is a liability against lefties. And despite his recent hot streak, he's still only slugging .422.

He can hit...but the reality is he is a slow singles hitter. Not sure how much value there is in that?

BrummerStealsHome wrote: ↑08 Jun 2025 20:53 pm

Jatalk wrote: ↑08 Jun 2025 18:55 pm I like Burley. Problem is there are 1000 Burleys out there. He plays his role but could be easily replaced. But he can add to a major league roster.

1000 Burly's out there? Where the hell are they? He's what, 7th in NL batting?

Career 260; OPS 700. Defense average maybe. Avg better so far we will see if that keeps up. I thought my comment was rather positive but you ain’t building a team around him.

Monsieur De Treville wrote: ↑08 Jun 2025 21:30 pm

Shady wrote: ↑08 Jun 2025 19:51 pm

Monsieur De Treville wrote: ↑08 Jun 2025 19:16 pm

OregonRedbird wrote: ↑08 Jun 2025 18:23 pm I expected the onslaught of benign corrective criticism and statistically it’s mostly legit, but I’m focused more on the now and what’s to come. There have been many ‘flawed and imperfect ballplayers that didn’t fit the idealized superstar profile but just hit. I think Burleson is one of those and his bat is real, bat to ball skills real and he will continue to improve, including against lefties, with ABs. Far more than a bench/depth piece, he’s a hitter. Lots of shots than turn into outs, but that’s baseball.

Fair enough.

But...

If he's all that you say he is...can you then explain his career 98 OPS+? His career 0.8 fWAR? His career .405 SLG%? In 1076 career ABs and he's 26.

Could it be he's just riding a hot streak at this time and will revert to form in a few weeks?

Frenchy, surely you''ll admit that Contreras also goes through his share of hots and colds, too. Please try to be open minded for a change.

Contreras career .808 OPS
Burleson career .717 OPS

Why would anyone try to compare these two hitters?

Because there is no good argument to back their ridiculous support, so they are left with (transparent)misdirection.

Shady wrote: ↑08 Jun 2025 21:26 pm

nebfan wrote: ↑08 Jun 2025 20:40 pm What about walker? He has improved defensively but I really don't see him as much better than burly. Burleys arm is as good or better and his bat is way better. We would be better served with burley in left and nootbaar in right and finding a center fielder that can hit

Burly's range would be better in LF. But he has a superior arm to Noot's and, possibly, Walker's in RF. Burleson can fricken' hit against anybody.

You tell 'em, Wally. His single slapping poor glove .767 OPS is dynamite. He has future Rockies/Pirates DH written all over him.

Jatalk wrote: ↑08 Jun 2025 22:01 pm

BrummerStealsHome wrote: ↑08 Jun 2025 20:53 pm

Jatalk wrote: ↑08 Jun 2025 18:55 pm I like Burley. Problem is there are 1000 Burleys out there. He plays his role but could be easily replaced. But he can add to a major league roster.

1000 Burly's out there? Where the hell are they? He's what, 7th in NL batting?

Career 260; OPS 700. Defense average maybe. Avg better so far we will see if that keeps up. I thought my comment was rather positive but you ain’t building a team around him.

He doesn't have enough ABs to qualify for anything....but...if he did....

His .767 OPS would be tie him for 37th in the NL.
He's slow. Extremely slow. He's a poor outfielder and an adequate first baseman.

He has value because he does hit a lot of singles, but no, you can't make him a center piece of a team. He's a specialist at best...pinch-hitter, spot-starter against RH pitchers only.

I don't hate Burly...but I grew up in the 60's & 70's when Cardinal baseball featured athletic players. I like guys who run well and are not a defensive liability.

OregonRedbird wrote: ↑08 Jun 2025 11:36 am Don’t understand the Burly hate. He’s hitting .289 with a 757 OPS, with more than his share of at-em balls. Plays decent 1B and more than adequate OF. His bat plays, I’ve always believed in him as a hitter and think he and Donnie could win batting titles one day. What I don’t like are the dumb, unfunny, not really clever but petty, condescending and tiresome nicknames.

Here's the problem.
Who would you rather have at DH, Herrera or Burly? That's an easy one based on career numbers so far.
Who would you rather have at 1B, Contreras or Burly? Surely most would prefer Contreras based on career numbers and how well Contreras is playing 1B.
I know many don't like the WAR metrics, especially when it doesn't fit their narrative, but when Burly plays the outfield, his WAR is negative for his career. It's only when he DH's or plays 1B where his WAR is sometimes slightly positive.
Yes, Walker also has a negative WAR while playing the OF. Maybe you think Burly in RF would be less negative than playing Walker out there. Possibly that'd be currently true to this point, but with Walker's perceived higher potential ceiling, they're currently giving Walker some runway. I won't argue with that, but if some of you do you might have a legit debate, until you consider you're still debating for a negative WAR OF'er.
At that point debating for the next milb OF to get an opportunity makes more sense, or for Donovan to move to the OF and a minor league infielder to get some runway. Sagesse would be a current candidate. Wetherholt could be a candidate soon. Gorman is still a candidate ......... I think.
It once again puts Burly's best current position back on the bench. The Cards FO should never settle for low type WAR position players if they're trying to build a winner. Burly can possibly change the narrative IF he ever puts up an +.800 OPS for a season. Until then, by all means let's keep talking about to this point a marginal MLB player.

Shady wrote: ↑08 Jun 2025 21:26 pm

nebfan wrote: ↑08 Jun 2025 20:40 pm What about walker? He has improved defensively but I really don't see him as much better than burly. Burleys arm is as good or better and his bat is way better. We would be better served with burley in left and nootbaar in right and finding a center fielder that can hit

Burly's range would be better in LF. But he has a superior arm to Noot's and, possibly, Walker's in RF. Burleson can fricken' hit against anybody.

Surely you aren't serious. Noot's arm isn't elite but is easily better than Burleson's. Walker's arm is absolutely elite, he has a cannon. What are you talking about?

Jatalk wrote: ↑08 Jun 2025 22:01 pm

BrummerStealsHome wrote: ↑08 Jun 2025 20:53 pm

Jatalk wrote: ↑08 Jun 2025 18:55 pm I like Burley. Problem is there are 1000 Burleys out there. He plays his role but could be easily replaced. But he can add to a major league roster.

1000 Burly's out there? Where the hell are they? He's what, 7th in NL batting?

Career 260; OPS 700. Defense average maybe. Avg better so far we will see if that keeps up. I thought my comment was rather positive but you ain’t building a team around him.

OK, I hear you.

My point is that I like Burly on this team at this time. The guy at the "bottom of the list" per se, is Gorman. He doesn't fit now nor will he ever.

Adam2 wrote: ↑09 Jun 2025 07:41 am

Shady wrote: ↑08 Jun 2025 21:26 pm

nebfan wrote: ↑08 Jun 2025 20:40 pm What about walker? He has improved defensively but I really don't see him as much better than burly. Burleys arm is as good or better and his bat is way better. We would be better served with burley in left and nootbaar in right and finding a center fielder that can hit

Burly's range would be better in LF. But he has a superior arm to Noot's and, possibly, Walker's in RF. Burleson can fricken' hit against anybody.

Surely you aren't serious. Noot's arm isn't elite but is easily better than Burleson's. Walker's arm is absolutely elite, he has a cannon. What are you talking about?

True love is what he’s talking about.

…and what range?? AB better at 1B than OF by far. Backup 1B and DH vs righty only suitable roles. I goof on the guy because of the strange love, but don’t mind him on the team…as a role player, which is what he is.

Adam2 wrote: ↑09 Jun 2025 07:41 am

Shady wrote: ↑08 Jun 2025 21:26 pm

nebfan wrote: ↑08 Jun 2025 20:40 pm What about walker? He has improved defensively but I really don't see him as much better than burly. Burleys arm is as good or better and his bat is way better. We would be better served with burley in left and nootbaar in right and finding a center fielder that can hit

Burly's range would be better in LF. But he has a superior arm to Noot's and, possibly, Walker's in RF. Burleson can fricken' hit against anybody.

Surely you aren't serious. Noot's arm isn't elite but is easily better than Burleson's. Walker's arm is absolutely elite, he has a cannon. What are you talking about?

you might be underselling Burly's arm. it's actually pretty good out there

BrummerStealsHome wrote: ↑09 Jun 2025 09:35 am

Jatalk wrote: ↑08 Jun 2025 22:01 pm

BrummerStealsHome wrote: ↑08 Jun 2025 20:53 pm

Jatalk wrote: ↑08 Jun 2025 18:55 pm I like Burley. Problem is there are 1000 Burleys out there. He plays his role but could be easily replaced. But he can add to a major league roster.

1000 Burly's out there? Where the hell are they? He's what, 7th in NL batting?

Career 260; OPS 700. Defense average maybe. Avg better so far we will see if that keeps up. I thought my comment was rather positive but you ain’t building a team around him.

OK, I hear you.

My point is that I like Burly on this team at this time. The guy at the "bottom of the list" per se, is Gorman. He doesn't fit now nor will he ever.

We are on the same page

I like Burleson and he definitely fills a need on this team:
Solid LH bat
Solid at 1B
Passable corner OF
When Walker is back the only issue I see is Burleson or Gorman?
That is assuming Herrera at DH.
There is no question that right now Burleson is a better all around hitter than Gorman.
The problem is that we can’t keep treading water with Gorman so he needs sufficient PT to make a decision on his future.