Team payrolls

[Adam2]

This is the biggest reason for my lagging interest in the game. I pretty much watch because over the summer, on a week night there are few other sports options. They have expanded the wildcard as far as they can at this point to trick fans into thinking their team is in real contention. But the have's just keep growing the separation from the have nots each year.

Others still enjoy it and that's fine with me. For me, that is the biggest reason for my lagging interest.

Nothing to do with the DH.

The other main reason for me is that Cardinal baseball has become a three hour infomercial and I can't stand it. No problem with announcers being homers, but the ridiculous, over the top telecast are more than I can bare.

I listen sometimes on radio. Cannot watch DH baseball.

Forcing pitchers to bat was one of the dumbest rules in the history of sports. There was never anything as anti-climatic like seeing a rally killed when the 8th place hitter was walked and the pitcher was forced to bat!

2021 Al 9 hitters .226
2021 NL hitters .166

That's one hit every 17 at bats. Once every 4 games. Ending the pitcher batting for one hit every 4 games is dumb.

Getting the DH in the NL was way overdue. Sorry it's not 1968 any longer

What happened to the fans who supposedly love the DH?

Easier and cheaper to watch from home. I watch every game from my couch, but my wife and i only go to a game if it is free tickets. too much hassle. But that's a different conversation than you not being able or willing to accept the DH, and that is it in fact not 1978

Universal DH was enacted in 2022 not 1978. What's so exciting about one more hit every 17 at bats?

The potential to not have a player blocked such as Ivan Herrera. Or being able to keep an aging player because you don't have to put him in the field 24/7

[Catfish4U]

The potential to not have a player blocked such as Ivan Herrera. Or being able to keep an aging player because you don't have to put him in the field 24/7

Both great points! A 'close to home example' is having Albert Pujols finish his career in 2022. That NEVER happens without the DH. Before anyone claims he would have been here please let me know what position he was playing. AND...... he was NOT forcing Paul Goldschmidt to the bench!

[ScotchMIrish]

This is the biggest reason for my lagging interest in the game. I pretty much watch because over the summer, on a week night there are few other sports options. They have expanded the wildcard as far as they can at this point to trick fans into thinking their team is in real contention. But the have's just keep growing the separation from the have nots each year.

Others still enjoy it and that's fine with me. For me, that is the biggest reason for my lagging interest.

Nothing to do with the DH.

The other main reason for me is that Cardinal baseball has become a three hour infomercial and I can't stand it. No problem with announcers being homers, but the ridiculous, over the top telecast are more than I can bare.

I listen sometimes on radio. Cannot watch DH baseball.

Forcing pitchers to bat was one of the dumbest rules in the history of sports. There was never anything as anti-climatic like seeing a rally killed when the 8th place hitter was walked and the pitcher was forced to bat!

2021 Al 9 hitters .226
2021 NL hitters .166

That's one hit every 17 at bats. Once every 4 games. Ending the pitcher batting for one hit every 4 games is dumb.

Getting the DH in the NL was way overdue. Sorry it's not 1968 any longer

What happened to the fans who supposedly love the DH?

Easier and cheaper to watch from home. I watch every game from my couch, but my wife and i only go to a game if it is free tickets. too much hassle. But that's a different conversation than you not being able or willing to accept the DH, and that is it in fact not 1978

Universal DH was enacted in 2022 not 1978. What's so exciting about one more hit every 17 at bats?

The potential to not have a player blocked such as Ivan Herrera. Or being able to keep an aging player because you don't have to put him in the field 24/7

Risk/reward. What happens if you put a poor defensive player on the field? More offense. That's the great thing about baseball. Can't hide a poor defensive player. The ball will find him.

[Youboughtit]

https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/payroll/_/year/2025

https://www.mlb.com/standings/#

NL East Top payroll Mets. First place Mets.

NL Central top payroll Cubs First place Cubs

NL West top payroll Dodgers first place Dodgers

AL East top payroll Yankees first place Yankees

AL Central top payroll tie Tigers and Twins first and second place Tigers and Twins

AL West top payroll Astros first place Astros.

Second place teams are all higher than others in their division with the exception of Tampa.

Do low payroll teams not have any leverage to get a payroll cap? The current "cap" is too high and the penalties are not stiff enough. The Blues finally won a cup after NHL owners banded together and had a lockout to get a payroll cap and every other pro sport has a serious cap.

I think DH baseball is an issue with attendance but clearly the imbalance in payrolls impacts winning and winning impacts attendance.

Not without a minimum that is 75-80% (lowest minimum in professional sports is currently 80%) of cap which would be $300m. The only way there will ever be a cap is with forced full revenue sharing including ALL income TV and otherwise

How did you arrive at a cap figure of $ 300 million?

The big markets are over that and have said the will not accept a cap where they have to shed payroll. The longer the MLBPA wait the higher it will be

[Youboughtit]

https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/payroll/_/year/2025

https://www.mlb.com/standings/#

NL East Top payroll Mets. First place Mets.

NL Central top payroll Cubs First place Cubs

NL West top payroll Dodgers first place Dodgers

AL East top payroll Yankees first place Yankees

AL Central top payroll tie Tigers and Twins first and second place Tigers and Twins

AL West top payroll Astros first place Astros.

Second place teams are all higher than others in their division with the exception of Tampa.

Do low payroll teams not have any leverage to get a payroll cap? The current "cap" is too high and the penalties are not stiff enough. The Blues finally won a cup after NHL owners banded together and had a lockout to get a payroll cap and every other pro sport has a serious cap.

I think DH baseball is an issue with attendance but clearly the imbalance in payrolls impacts winning and winning impacts attendance.

Not without a minimum that is 75-80% (lowest minimum in professional sports is currently 80%) of cap which would be $300m. The only way there will ever be a cap is with forced full revenue sharing including ALL income TV and otherwise

With the amateur draft and international signings they have gone in the direction of big payroll teams and the unions recently will slot limits and a limit on international spending. Changes in free agent compensation also benefitted big market teams and the union. A primary reason was the pirates who went from 20 consecutive losing seasons to playoff contender by spending more than any other team in the draft and international signings while having one of the lowest payrolls. Union hated it and big payroll teams hated it.

MLB needs to stop bending to the unions when the current collective bargaining agreement ends in 2026. If they want to go on strike let them.

Not bending to the union. The MLB really only cares about the big markets hence its business model of no full revenue sharing like all other professional sports has

They are bending to the union. Combination of that and big market teams both lobbying for this stuff. Both hated the Pirates suddenly being in contention by spending in the draft and international signings while maintaining a low payroll.

Pirates are not in contention. One of the worst teams in baseball

[ScotchMIrish]

https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/payroll/_/year/2025

https://www.mlb.com/standings/#

NL East Top payroll Mets. First place Mets.

NL Central top payroll Cubs First place Cubs

NL West top payroll Dodgers first place Dodgers

AL East top payroll Yankees first place Yankees

AL Central top payroll tie Tigers and Twins first and second place Tigers and Twins

AL West top payroll Astros first place Astros.

Second place teams are all higher than others in their division with the exception of Tampa.

Do low payroll teams not have any leverage to get a payroll cap? The current "cap" is too high and the penalties are not stiff enough. The Blues finally won a cup after NHL owners banded together and had a lockout to get a payroll cap and every other pro sport has a serious cap.

I think DH baseball is an issue with attendance but clearly the imbalance in payrolls impacts winning and winning impacts attendance.

Not without a minimum that is 75-80% (lowest minimum in professional sports is currently 80%) of cap which would be $300m. The only way there will ever be a cap is with forced full revenue sharing including ALL income TV and otherwise

How did you arrive at a cap figure of $ 300 million?

The big markets are over that and have said the will not accept a cap where they have to shed payroll. The longer the MLBPA wait the higher it will be

Grandfather the current players in and give then time to get in line with a reduced payroll. Ending the DH would go a long way toward achieving that goal because one reason position players get bloated long term deals is because the team figures than can hide the player at DH. If he was forced to play the field or limited to pinch hitting those deals would shrink because teams would be stuck with a bad contract.

[rbirules]

Universal DH was enacted in 2022 not 1978. What's so exciting about one more hit every 17 at bats?

As was just pointed out, your stats are (purposely?) flawed, it's really more than double the hits and times on bases, and triple the number of bases per AB . . .

Why look at #9 hitters when you can see pitcher and DH numbers directly? After all, pitchers were frequently pinch-hit for and DHs didn't always bat 9th.

2021 NL pitchers--110/149/140
2021 AL DHs--240/317/437

You can reprise your argument above and say "that's only 13 more hits per 100" but "twice as frequently" makes the point more clearly--pitchers couldn't hit. For many they didn't even try. SLG < OBP for all pitchers over a season is pretty damning.

[ScotchMIrish]

https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/payroll/_/year/2025

https://www.mlb.com/standings/#

NL East Top payroll Mets. First place Mets.

NL Central top payroll Cubs First place Cubs

NL West top payroll Dodgers first place Dodgers

AL East top payroll Yankees first place Yankees

AL Central top payroll tie Tigers and Twins first and second place Tigers and Twins

AL West top payroll Astros first place Astros.

Second place teams are all higher than others in their division with the exception of Tampa.

Do low payroll teams not have any leverage to get a payroll cap? The current "cap" is too high and the penalties are not stiff enough. The Blues finally won a cup after NHL owners banded together and had a lockout to get a payroll cap and every other pro sport has a serious cap.

I think DH baseball is an issue with attendance but clearly the imbalance in payrolls impacts winning and winning impacts attendance.

Not without a minimum that is 75-80% (lowest minimum in professional sports is currently 80%) of cap which would be $300m. The only way there will ever be a cap is with forced full revenue sharing including ALL income TV and otherwise

With the amateur draft and international signings they have gone in the direction of big payroll teams and the unions recently will slot limits and a limit on international spending. Changes in free agent compensation also benefitted big market teams and the union. A primary reason was the pirates who went from 20 consecutive losing seasons to playoff contender by spending more than any other team in the draft and international signings while having one of the lowest payrolls. Union hated it and big payroll teams hated it.

MLB needs to stop bending to the unions when the current collective bargaining agreement ends in 2026. If they want to go on strike let them.

Not bending to the union. The MLB really only cares about the big markets hence its business model of no full revenue sharing like all other professional sports has

They are bending to the union. Combination of that and big market teams both lobbying for this stuff. Both hated the Pirates suddenly being in contention by spending in the draft and international signings while maintaining a low payroll.

Pirates are not in contention. One of the worst teams in baseball

You are not familiar of the history behind the new free agent compensation rules and new amateur draft pool and international pool limits. The Pirates caused that by spending the most on the draft and international signings while maintaining a low payroll. Big payroll teams and the union hated it. Now there is a strict limit on how much a team can spend in the draft and a team losing a free agent no longer receives the other team's first round pick.

Pirates had 20 consecutive losing seasons until they developed that strategy. Then then became playoff contenders. Now they are right back where the big money teams want them.

[rbirules]

https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/payroll/_/year/2025

https://www.mlb.com/standings/#

NL East Top payroll Mets. First place Mets.

NL Central top payroll Cubs First place Cubs

NL West top payroll Dodgers first place Dodgers

AL East top payroll Yankees first place Yankees

AL Central top payroll tie Tigers and Twins first and second place Tigers and Twins

AL West top payroll Astros first place Astros.

Second place teams are all higher than others in their division with the exception of Tampa.

Do low payroll teams not have any leverage to get a payroll cap? The current "cap" is too high and the penalties are not stiff enough. The Blues finally won a cup after NHL owners banded together and had a lockout to get a payroll cap and every other pro sport has a serious cap.

I think DH baseball is an issue with attendance but clearly the imbalance in payrolls impacts winning and winning impacts attendance.

Not without a minimum that is 75-80% (lowest minimum in professional sports is currently 80%) of cap which would be $300m. The only way there will ever be a cap is with forced full revenue sharing including ALL income TV and otherwise

How did you arrive at a cap figure of $ 300 million?

The big markets are over that and have said the will not accept a cap where they have to shed payroll. The longer the MLBPA wait the higher it will be

Grandfather the current players in and give then time to get in line with a reduced payroll. Ending the DH would go a long way toward achieving that goal because one reason position players get bloated long term deals is because the team figures than can hide the player at DH. If he was forced to play the field or limited to pinch hitting those deals would shrink because teams would be stuck with a bad contract.

I agree, you'd have to work out a system that gradually gets below a certain cap, or have a temporary luxury tax system like MLB used to or the NBA currently has until you can get all teams under a hard cap. But the players, and ALL owners would have to want to make this type of system work.

[Youboughtit]

https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/payroll/_/year/2025

https://www.mlb.com/standings/#

NL East Top payroll Mets. First place Mets.

NL Central top payroll Cubs First place Cubs

NL West top payroll Dodgers first place Dodgers

AL East top payroll Yankees first place Yankees

AL Central top payroll tie Tigers and Twins first and second place Tigers and Twins

AL West top payroll Astros first place Astros.

Second place teams are all higher than others in their division with the exception of Tampa.

Do low payroll teams not have any leverage to get a payroll cap? The current "cap" is too high and the penalties are not stiff enough. The Blues finally won a cup after NHL owners banded together and had a lockout to get a payroll cap and every other pro sport has a serious cap.

I think DH baseball is an issue with attendance but clearly the imbalance in payrolls impacts winning and winning impacts attendance.

Not without a minimum that is 75-80% (lowest minimum in professional sports is currently 80%) of cap which would be $300m. The only way there will ever be a cap is with forced full revenue sharing including ALL income TV and otherwise

With the amateur draft and international signings they have gone in the direction of big payroll teams and the unions recently will slot limits and a limit on international spending. Changes in free agent compensation also benefitted big market teams and the union. A primary reason was the pirates who went from 20 consecutive losing seasons to playoff contender by spending more than any other team in the draft and international signings while having one of the lowest payrolls. Union hated it and big payroll teams hated it.

MLB needs to stop bending to the unions when the current collective bargaining agreement ends in 2026. If they want to go on strike let them.

Not bending to the union. The MLB really only cares about the big markets hence its business model of no full revenue sharing like all other professional sports has

They are bending to the union. Combination of that and big market teams both lobbying for this stuff. Both hated the Pirates suddenly being in contention by spending in the draft and international signings while maintaining a low payroll.

Pirates are not in contention. One of the worst teams in baseball

You are not familiar of the history behind the new free agent compensation rules and new amateur draft pool and international pool limits. The Pirates caused that by spending the most on the draft and international signings while maintaining a low payroll. Big payroll teams and the union hated it. Now there is a strict limit on how much a team can spend in the draft and a team losing a free agent no longer receives the other team's first round pick.

Pirates had 20 consecutive losing seasons until they developed that strategy. Then then became playoff contenders. Now they are right back where the big money teams want them.

Now they are a WS contender? There has to be a international
Pool limit or they have to be in the draft like the owners want but the MLBPA won’t allow that.

[Youboughtit]

https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/payroll/_/year/2025

https://www.mlb.com/standings/#

NL East Top payroll Mets. First place Mets.

NL Central top payroll Cubs First place Cubs

NL West top payroll Dodgers first place Dodgers

AL East top payroll Yankees first place Yankees

AL Central top payroll tie Tigers and Twins first and second place Tigers and Twins

AL West top payroll Astros first place Astros.

Second place teams are all higher than others in their division with the exception of Tampa.

Do low payroll teams not have any leverage to get a payroll cap? The current "cap" is too high and the penalties are not stiff enough. The Blues finally won a cup after NHL owners banded together and had a lockout to get a payroll cap and every other pro sport has a serious cap.

I think DH baseball is an issue with attendance but clearly the imbalance in payrolls impacts winning and winning impacts attendance.

Not without a minimum that is 75-80% (lowest minimum in professional sports is currently 80%) of cap which would be $300m. The only way there will ever be a cap is with forced full revenue sharing including ALL income TV and otherwise

How did you arrive at a cap figure of $ 300 million?

The big markets are over that and have said the will not accept a cap where they have to shed payroll. The longer the MLBPA wait the higher it will be

Grandfather the current players in and give then time to get in line with a reduced payroll. Ending the DH would go a long way toward achieving that goal because one reason position players get bloated long term deals is because the team figures than can hide the player at DH. If he was forced to play the field or limited to pinch hitting those deals would shrink because teams would be stuck with a bad contract.

Half the leauge is over $200m and for there to be a cap
It will require an increase in overall payroll so let’s give a low cap of $250m. No professional sport has a cap without a minimum and the lowest min is 80% so let’s set a record and go 75%. That means the Marlins etc will have a min of $187.5m. How do you make that happen without FULL revenue sharing? Impossible until the MLB uses the NFL NBA NHL and soccer formula of full revenue sharing

[ScotchMIrish]

Universal DH was enacted in 2022 not 1978. What's so exciting about one more hit every 17 at bats?

As was just pointed out, your stats are (purposely?) flawed, it's really more than double the hits and times on bases, and triple the number of bases per AB . . .

Why look at #9 hitters when you can see pitcher and DH numbers directly? After all, pitchers were frequently pinch-hit for and DHs didn't always bat 9th.

2021 NL pitchers--110/149/140
2021 AL DHs--240/317/437

You can reprise your argument above and say "that's only 13 more hits per 100" but "twice as frequently" makes the point more clearly--pitchers couldn't hit. For many they didn't even try. SLG < OBP for all pitchers over a season is pretty damning.

False numbers. You assume the pitcher bats every time in the 9 spot when in reality teams use a pinch hitter and double switch after the 2nd time through the lineup.

Example Wainwright in 2021 made 32 starts - 200 innings. 74 PA. 57 AB.

You also assume the DH wouldn't be on the field if there was no DH which is false. He would be on the field but the team's defense would be diminished which leads to more offense for the other team.

Joe Torre started as a catcher. Worked his butt off to learn third base and won a batting title at third base. As he aged he moved to first base. Today's players should develop a work ethic and learn the game but why bother when the DH bails them out. Teams don't even take infield any more. Too hard. Makes them tired.

[rbirules]

Universal DH was enacted in 2022 not 1978. What's so exciting about one more hit every 17 at bats?

As was just pointed out, your stats are (purposely?) flawed, it's really more than double the hits and times on bases, and triple the number of bases per AB . . .

Why look at #9 hitters when you can see pitcher and DH numbers directly? After all, pitchers were frequently pinch-hit for and DHs didn't always bat 9th.

2021 NL pitchers--110/149/140
2021 AL DHs--240/317/437

You can reprise your argument above and say "that's only 13 more hits per 100" but "twice as frequently" makes the point more clearly--pitchers couldn't hit. For many they didn't even try. SLG < OBP for all pitchers over a season is pretty damning.

False numbers. You assume the pitcher bats every time in the 9 spot when in reality teams use a pinch hitter and double switch after the 2nd time through the lineup.

Example Wainwright in 2021 made 32 starts - 200 innings. 74 PA. 57 AB.

You also assume the DH wouldn't be on the field if there was no DH which is false. He would be on the field but the team's defense would be diminished which leads to more offense for the other team.

Joe Torre started as a catcher. Worked his butt off to learn third base and won a batting title at third base. As he aged he moved to first base. Today's players should develop a work ethic and learn the game but why bother when the DH bails them out. Teams don't even take infield any more. Too hard. Makes them tired.

You're the one that brought up 9th place hitters, not me, and that's incredibly flawed for the reasons you just outlined (it's not just pitchers, it's a lot of pinch hitters as well).

But let's look at what was given up (pitchers hitting) vs. what was gained (a DH in the NL). In that instance the DH is twice as good as the pitchers. Pitchers had a -22 wRC+ in 2021, in 2022 DHs in the NL had a 101 wRC+. If you want to say you're giving up pinch hitters as well, then 9th place hitters (we'll use this as a proxy for pitchers and pinch hitters, even though sometimes this happens in the 8th spot) had the aforementioned .166 BA and 30 wRC+ compared to the 101 wRC+ for DHs. Teams change how they deploy players with the DH option, so I think it makes sense to look at the DH position from 2022. Either way you go from dreadful to average (30 wRC+ to 101) or from absolutely wretched to average (-22 wRC+ to 101). It's not a small gain.