Is Doug Armstrong the Best GM in Blues History?

[TBone]

The question is simple. On the advent of Army's last year, does he go down as the best GM in Blues history? What we know he has done for the franchise. He has brought the city of St. Louis it's first Stanley Cup, He has won 1 conference title and 3 division titles. He has had 11 playoff appearances. For himself he has won a General Manager of the year award. Can't compare this to his predecessors because the award didn't exist before. The team has had 1 negative win record season under his leadership. Hockey is as big now as it ever was at any point in STL's history. You can argue that award goes to the ownership as they are responsible for fan engagement. But Army has done this all in the most competitive landscape the NHL has ever been in. Right now is the height of hockey or the "golden era" of the league. There hasn't been another time when the skill is as high as it is league wide line to line, while still maintaining physicality that other sports are lacking.

Not to mention that he just put up a General Manager of the year candidacy for this season.

What do you guys think? Does Army go down as the GOAT? I don't think statues get put up for managers, at least those that didn't play, but does Army eventually get something commemorating his commitment to the city of St. Louis and the organization? My guess is yes.

GM's don't get statues, but they could get banners. And yes, he deserves one for all the reasons you mention.

Right now hockey is receiving the kind of off-season Hot Stove talk usually reserved for baseball in this city. In fact, I'm not sure I can ever recall this level of fan engagement wanting to hear hockey talk on sports talk radio in St. Louis. It's still an hourly topic and it has to do with the excitement over the productive youth this organization has accumulated since winning the Cup. You can see the window for another Championship opening and that's as fun as it gets and it starts with Armstrong and Stillman.

To point, Emile Francis got the Blues going with a running start. Ron Caron was fun with his "meat on the burner" and acquired The Golden Brett. But how can you not think Doug Armstrong isn't the best of them all? He's repeatedy identified top line head coaches and has a scouting structure in place who he trusts that continues to produce top talent despite usually drafting in the late teens and twenties. No doubt Army's the best.

[TBone]

I’d say yes he is. Certainly made some mistakes along the way, but the overall record and the Cup speak for themselves. He seemed to realize he screwed up after the Cup and with Steen on the horizon, he has moved quickly to position the team for the future. Anxious to see what he does this summer.

I definitely had a high opinion of Ron Caron, though. As netboy said, entertainment value if nothing else. But back in the Caron days, I ran into him a few times down at the old Arena when I stopped by to pick up tickets. I was in college, but the man would stop and talk, and a couple of the conversations went 30 minutes or so. He absolutely loved talking hockey and he would probably talk about stuff that GM’s would never talk about these days (what he thought about various players or prospects). I guess they were a little less guarded before the internet.

Wow. I bet you treasure those conversation with the Ol' Professor. Nice.

Care to drill down on one of those encounters with a story?

[a smell of green grass]

He won a Cup, but his talent evaluation is very sub-par.

Don't tell me about Dvorsky, etc. He is an unknown quantity. What happened to all his picks before Dvorsky that should be on the ice now?

When you compare the players on our roster that we drafted with what other teams have, it is disgusting and infuriating.

Best ever? Maybe, but we should have kicked him out in 2020 because it has been all downhill since then.

[Frank Barone]

I’d say yes he is. Certainly made some mistakes along the way, but the overall record and the Cup speak for themselves. He seemed to realize he screwed up after the Cup and with Steen on the horizon, he has moved quickly to position the team for the future. Anxious to see what he does this summer.

I definitely had a high opinion of Ron Caron, though. As netboy said, entertainment value if nothing else. But back in the Caron days, I ran into him a few times down at the old Arena when I stopped by to pick up tickets. I was in college, but the man would stop and talk, and a couple of the conversations went 30 minutes or so. He absolutely loved talking hockey and he would probably talk about stuff that GM’s would never talk about these days (what he thought about various players or prospects). I guess they were a little less guarded before the internet.

I had the same kind of experience with the Professor. I talked to him at a preseason practice and he told me he was going to acquire Phil Housley before anyone in the media knew about it. His hands were tied by ownership on a lot of the crazy moves back in his tenure. Who else would ever say publicly at the trade deadline, "the meat is on the burner?"

But yes, Doug Armstrong is by far the best GM in Blues history.

[Frank Underwood]

I’d say yes he is. Certainly made some mistakes along the way, but the overall record and the Cup speak for themselves. He seemed to realize he screwed up after the Cup and with Steen on the horizon, he has moved quickly to position the team for the future. Anxious to see what he does this summer.

I definitely had a high opinion of Ron Caron, though. As netboy said, entertainment value if nothing else. But back in the Caron days, I ran into him a few times down at the old Arena when I stopped by to pick up tickets. I was in college, but the man would stop and talk, and a couple of the conversations went 30 minutes or so. He absolutely loved talking hockey and he would probably talk about stuff that GM’s would never talk about these days (what he thought about various players or prospects). I guess they were a little less guarded before the internet.

Wow. I bet you treasure those conversation with the Ol' Professor. Nice.

Care to drill down on one of those encounters with a story?

Sure! Ran into him twice in the parking lot in front of the old Arena on off days and he literally stood there and talked hockey with me for 30 minutes or so each time. In fact, I actually had to cut him off one time because I was running late! But the man definitely loved talking hockey. I knew a lot about prospects back then and he really would open up in discussing that stuff when he sensed I had a clue. It was a different time back then (mid-80’s), so he didn’t have to worry about me going and posting details on the internet! Also ran into him years later at training camp and he actually recognized me. We chatted and kind of like Frank Barone’s experience, he told me how much he wanted to acquire Shayne Corson. The irony is that the Blues eventually did get Corson, but the Professor had stepped down as GM by then. He was still with the Blues as an advisor, so I’m sure he played a role. Great, entertaining guy!

[Bob39]

It's hard to know what Emilie Francis would have done if given any money at all. Ron Caron did wonders with very little but also (under pressure from management) traded some really key pieces. On the plus side, we was responsible for one of the great steals in team history getting Hull for Wamsley and Ramage.

Larry Pleau had some good moments getting Walt, Mellanby, Gretzky, etc. From a standpoint of player movement, the Blues have been one of the most interesting franchises in sports history. How many trades and transactions do they have with stars and Hall of Famers going both ways? Unger for Berenson, Federko for Oates, Shannahan (essentially) for Stevens, Shannahan for Pronger, the list goes on.

[Bubble4427]

It's been 30days.
This again.

So in March you gave us.
Is Army a genius?

Which you answered:

"Not only has the man won a cup, is in the top 10 in all time wins as a GM holding one of the best win percentages of all time. But he manages to offer sheet 2 seemingly studs from a cup contending team for the cheap and these boys deliver. No one except a mad genius could see the production that Holloway is putting out there. The man must know his hockey. And to take it one step further, Fowler. How did this guy get a defender who was scoring 0 for peanuts and have him find the back of the net for 8 goals for the blues. AND on top of that, he finds a way to get Monty and locks him down long term when the Bruins deem him yesterday’s news.

Around 30 days later, in April. You gave us.
Is Army the GM of the year?
Which you answered.

"Listening to a couple hockey channels on youtube the past 24 hours, it seems the growing consensus is that Army will win the Jim Gregory GM of the year award. We obviously know his career numbers as he is top 10 in the league all time for wins, tops in the league for win percentage among GM's who have done the job more than 10 years, won a Stanley Cup, coveted in Canada etc etc etc.

But looking at the season in a vacuum as that is what the award is for. Is this one of the best GM jobs in history? The offer sheet play was the talk of the summer. It happened in a huge hockey lull and the Blues and Oilers became the top conversation for those who listen to hockey podcasts and news for a full week. Every day was a roller coaster with Edmonton fans saying these 2 were the best thing ever, then the next day when it looked like they were walking "these 2 are so overrated that money is stupid." rinse repeat for 7 days. Well it's fair to say like Rivers yesterday on 101, just give these guys 8x8 and be done with it. The gamble paid off. Take another gamble and you might have a huge steal 5 years from now. That is point 1.

Point 2 for Army was the hiring of Monty. This was a no brainer as we all saw this coming from last season but it seemed like an impossible task and bad timing for the Blues with Monty getting past the 1st round. The only thing that was difficult was Army had to fire a contracted coach and hire Monty. This was BOLD and not many GM's would do that. He had to convince Stillman and Co to buck up that extra money too.

Point 3 MASSIVE trade for Fowler while giving up peanuts. Blues basically got a free top pairing defensemen who is careering in half a season as a Blue. This goes to show that you can find good trades for vets from bad teams without giving up anything. People especially on this board called Fowler washed. He just had been playing on a bad team. Monty said that Fowler/Parayko pairing was the best pairing he had ever coached at any spot. Huge steal for the man Army

Point 4 Snuggy. Some posters on this board as well as a lot of posters on Reddit bought in that Snuggy didn't want to be here. He would never play for the Blues and would eventually sign with the Mild. That was pushed for over 2 years. Sure enough, Snuggy signs as a Blue for 3 seasons. I still remember earlier in the year. "What GM goes to the players house and has dinner with them if he isn't trying to convince him to be a Blue. This isn't normal. Army didn't do that for DD." Stupid remarks.

If the Blues make the playoffs, that will be point 5 an seal the deal. Dude is on FIRE.

Shoutout to him doing this and mentoring Steener in the process. That has to be a lot of fun."

Unfortunately none in February.

One Question.
Who is Army to you, and did he ask you for this, or you getting paid.

These are 3 valid posts and different questions? One is questioning the guy's acumen. One is highlighting basically only the single season wrap up. And then the other is taking a scaled back approach and looking at the career body of work with the Blues. Why does this bother you? And no, posters know I am an out of market poster but I feel i bring very valid statistically backed arguments to the table. I just figured, there is a time and place to discuss a mans legacy. When a player or in this case a GM announces their** retirement plan, it's usually appropriate to ask what kind of legacy that player is going to leave before their "swan song".

If you have a problem with that I am sorry. I for one like to talk about the positive merits that players, coaches, managers, owners etc etc bring to the city that I still call home. There's nothing worse than what happened with the Lambs which I called my number 1 team for the longest time. To see the owner of that team and the higher ups involved trash the city on their way out, it really makes you appreciate those that poor into the city as much as they do like a Schenn, Binner, Army, Stillman. Monty will join that list eventually after he puts some more time because all he does it talk up the city and it's people.

I'll offer up an alternatives that appeared to do a good job. (I can't say first hand as I wasn't really alive/aware for that) Caron seemed like he stabilized a team and never missed a playoffs.

Why does it bother you so much to talk positively about a guy that undoubtedly had a career season as GM?

Don't apologize. We have the same couple doofuses starting new threads bashing Army, which say all the same stuff all the others already said. And that happens nearly every day. Completely fair to do a new thread praising Army every once in a while.

I think it should happen every time he makes a thread bashing Army!

I put one thread at seasons end. Which was as much about the fandom, as Army.
The plan changed at least five times this year. Now that maga smart. Army said at the beginning of the season he believed the team could challenge for a WC spot. The team did not start out well, do you expect him to quit doing his job throughout the season? He went after Fowler and also saw where he could upgrade his coach. Those changes are not "5 plan changes".

Two things Army did last year. Getting inside information from his buddy was one, No moves without that. It wasn't inside information. Everything that Army had access to was public knowledge.

The other was what he does every year he is hoping to make playoffs. He brought in a veteran defender. The first time out of 7-8 times that the ole, vet defender at deadline, worked out. So 1-8 with his annual deadline move. 7-8 times? when you desperately exaggerate just to prove your point, you come off weak. Army's previous defenseman adds were not THAT bad. Each one did improve the team from its previous position. You can only make deals for players that are made available.

The year of the cup. Everyone on the team was on the Block, the goaltender, who needed more seasoning just two months before. Came up to give us the tank. Oops. What a genius. The team was in last place in the entire league. Army said repeatedly that the team was built to compete for a cup but was seriously underperforming. How about giving him credit for making the coaching change mid season?

Honestly. If he was so great. He wouldn't need the cult to tell us all the time. And they wouldn't have to lie and call names to make his case.(not op)
Honestly, if you are ever going to create a new profile screen name...might I suggest "20 watt"? You remind me of a 20 watt light bulb, you're not very bright

[netboy65]

He won a Cup, but his talent evaluation is very sub-par.

Don't tell me about Dvorsky, etc. He is an unknown quantity. What happened to all his picks before Dvorsky that should be on the ice now?

When you compare the players on our roster that we drafted with what other teams have, it is disgusting and infuriating.

Best ever? Maybe, but we should have kicked him out in 2020 because it has been all downhill since then.

Who do you mean? Thomas? Kyrou? Snuggerud? Bolduc? Parayko? Not sure who you’re referring to.

[a smell of green grass]

He won a Cup, but his talent evaluation is very sub-par.

Don't tell me about Dvorsky, etc. He is an unknown quantity. What happened to all his picks before Dvorsky that should be on the ice now?

When you compare the players on our roster that we drafted with what other teams have, it is disgusting and infuriating.

Best ever? Maybe, but we should have kicked him out in 2020 because it has been all downhill since then.

Who do you mean? Thomas? Kyrou? Snuggerud? Bolduc? Parayko? Not sure who you’re referring to.

Im referring to the guys in the playoffs that were so silent for us. Thomas, Kyrou, Bolduc and Parayko. For homework. compare our players with what other teams have and their production in the playoffs.

[netboy65]

He won a Cup, but his talent evaluation is very sub-par.

Don't tell me about Dvorsky, etc. He is an unknown quantity. What happened to all his picks before Dvorsky that should be on the ice now?

When you compare the players on our roster that we drafted with what other teams have, it is disgusting and infuriating.

Best ever? Maybe, but we should have kicked him out in 2020 because it has been all downhill since then.

Who do you mean? Thomas? Kyrou? Snuggerud? Bolduc? Parayko? Not sure who you’re referring to.

Im referring to the guys in the playoffs that were so silent for us. Thomas, Kyrou, Bolduc and Parayko. For homework. compare our players with what other teams have and their production in the playoffs.

No you weren’t. Just moving the goalposts as usual

[seattleblue]

Ron Caron stories! The first time I left the United States it was by myself in a dying car in a Canadian blizzard to go see the Blues play the Nordiques on a Saturday Dec 14 1991. The Blues trailed 2-1 in this game and scored 2 shorthanded goals on the same penalty in the third period and won 4-2. I got there very early and among other things ran into Ron Caron in an elevator, it was just me and him talking about Dan Laperriere who was a Blues 5th round draft pick in 89, defenseman at St. Lawrence. (I did PBP in the ECAC and observed this player). It was a bit of a surreal moment, especially after just talking to Ken Wilson.

[Lone_Ranger]

Ron Caron stories! The first time I left the United States it was by myself in a dying car in a Canadian blizzard to go see the Blues play the Nordiques on a Saturday Dec 14 1991. The Blues trailed 2-1 in this game and scored 2 shorthanded goals on the same penalty in the third period and won 4-2. I got there very early and among other things ran into Ron Caron in an elevator, it was just me and him talking about Dan Laperriere who was a Blues 5th round draft pick in 89, defenseman at St. Lawrence. (I did PBP in the ECAC and observed this player). It was a bit of a surreal moment, especially after just talking to Ken Wilson.

Lucky you. Great stuff. Caron was the most talented GM we had. Could of been the best had he worked under better circumstances at the time but he was definitely gifted in putting together a hockey club.

Army does get the distinction of best GM in Blues history. You can't argue with results, we got our Cup and he's got the organization headed for another run at it.

[callitwhatyouwant]

Ron Caron stories! The first time I left the United States it was by myself in a dying car in a Canadian blizzard to go see the Blues play the Nordiques on a Saturday Dec 14 1991. The Blues trailed 2-1 in this game and scored 2 shorthanded goals on the same penalty in the third period and won 4-2. I got there very early and among other things ran into Ron Caron in an elevator, it was just me and him talking about Dan Laperriere who was a Blues 5th round draft pick in 89, defenseman at St. Lawrence. (I did PBP in the ECAC and observed this player). It was a bit of a surreal moment, especially after just talking to Ken Wilson.

dang these are the fun stories. that level of accessibility is awesome and definitely a product of the past that I wish humanity could have kept. the old dawn of the video camera in everyone's pocket really ruined that experience for the current generation. Joey Vitale talked about one of their halloween experiences with syd the kid and they basically had to stop doing the nonchalant way of carrying themselves because people would refuse to just stop videoing syd having a good time. stories like yours are few and far between because it's only capable of happening when the crazies aren't around, which seems to be very rare these days.

[blackinkbiz]

The question is simple. On the advent of Army's last year, does he go down as the best GM in Blues history? What we know he has done for the franchise. He has brought the city of St. Louis it's first Stanley Cup, He has won 1 conference title and 3 division titles. He has had 11 playoff appearances. For himself he has won a General Manager of the year award. Can't compare this to his predecessors because the award didn't exist before. The team has had 1 negative win record season under his leadership. Hockey is as big now as it ever was at any point in STL's history. You can argue that award goes to the ownership as they are responsible for fan engagement. But Army has done this all in the most competitive landscape the NHL has ever been in. Right now is the height of hockey or the "golden era" of the league. There hasn't been another time when the skill is as high as it is league wide line to line, while still maintaining physicality that other sports are lacking.

Not to mention that he just put up a General Manager of the year candidacy for this season.

What do you guys think? Does Army go down as the GOAT? I don't think statues get put up for managers, at least those that didn't play, but does Army eventually get something commemorating his commitment to the city of St. Louis and the organization? My guess is yes.

Army is not the best GM in Blues history. He's the BEST GM IN NHL HISTORY.

Every move he makes, every breath he takes, I be watchin'!

He dangled the idea of trading Schenn just to take him back from the market and BAM! woke the team up like a Tyson left hook. GENIUS!

Pure 100% unadulterated GENIUS! No one has ever been so silky smooth and hard as rock at the same time.

Makes me want to bow down to his genius and cry in thanks to any deity listening that be graced us with the ARMY!

Grab yer guns and let's get 'er done, lookout NHL, we're on an unstoppable charge. Be all you can be!

Because we got the ARMY!

[TheJackBurton]

Ron Caron stories! The first time I left the United States it was by myself in a dying car in a Canadian blizzard to go see the Blues play the Nordiques on a Saturday Dec 14 1991. The Blues trailed 2-1 in this game and scored 2 shorthanded goals on the same penalty in the third period and won 4-2. I got there very early and among other things ran into Ron Caron in an elevator, it was just me and him talking about Dan Laperriere who was a Blues 5th round draft pick in 89, defenseman at St. Lawrence. (I did PBP in the ECAC and observed this player). It was a bit of a surreal moment, especially after just talking to Ken Wilson.

dang these are the fun stories. that level of accessibility is awesome and definitely a product of the past that I wish humanity could have kept. the old dawn of the video camera in everyone's pocket really ruined that experience for the current generation. Joey Vitale talked about one of their halloween experiences with syd the kid and they basically had to stop doing the nonchalant way of carrying themselves because people would refuse to just stop videoing syd having a good time. stories like yours are few and far between because it's only capable of happening when the crazies aren't around, which seems to be very rare these days.

I agree. People just can't live their lives anymore because someone is always filming. If you are famous person? Just forget it.

[seattleblue]

Ron Caron stories! The first time I left the United States it was by myself in a dying car in a Canadian blizzard to go see the Blues play the Nordiques on a Saturday Dec 14 1991. The Blues trailed 2-1 in this game and scored 2 shorthanded goals on the same penalty in the third period and won 4-2. I got there very early and among other things ran into Ron Caron in an elevator, it was just me and him talking about Dan Laperriere who was a Blues 5th round draft pick in 89, defenseman at St. Lawrence. (I did PBP in the ECAC and observed this player). It was a bit of a surreal moment, especially after just talking to Ken Wilson.

dang these are the fun stories. that level of accessibility is awesome and definitely a product of the past that I wish humanity could have kept. the old dawn of the video camera in everyone's pocket really ruined that experience for the current generation. Joey Vitale talked about one of their halloween experiences with syd the kid and they basically had to stop doing the nonchalant way of carrying themselves because people would refuse to just stop videoing syd having a good time. stories like yours are few and far between because it's only capable of happening when the crazies aren't around, which seems to be very rare these days.

Craving significance is one of the great human dooms. Significance is a human need across the board. But the instinctive craving of it, en masse, can be warping to people. Becoming significant, staying significant. It's a lot of what we do in life isn't it?

(Film noir fans, I point you to Sunset Boulevard and Mulholland Drive as examples.)