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Re: Is Helsley going to turn to [shirt] like the others before we can even trade him?

Posted: 04 May 2025 13:05 pm
by Ozziesfan41
ScotchMIrish wrote: 04 May 2025 12:46 pm
Ozziesfan41 wrote: 04 May 2025 10:05 am
ScotchMIrish wrote: 04 May 2025 08:09 am
Ozziesfan41 wrote: 03 May 2025 21:40 pm
ScotchMIrish wrote: 03 May 2025 21:28 pm Why trade him for what likely would be peanuts instead of getting the draft pick for someone signing after he turns down the qualifying offer?
y

If he continues to be mediocre he would never turn it down and cards aren’t going to shell out 20
Million on a reliever no matter how good they are cards will never take the risk of giving him QO and he accepts. So if they keep him he walks for nothing
What would you give in exchange for a mediocre reliever who is a pending free agent?
Getting something for him would be better than getting nothing even if it’s no more than a decent relief pitcher prospect. Like I said Mo was dumb to not trade him in the offseason but he likes to wait until they have very little value
You would trade a decent relief pitcher prospect for a mediocre relief pitcher who is a rental?
Multiple teams will be interested in him thinking he can turn it around as long as he is healthy one will offer something decent. Not a top prospect but a decent relief prospect. Like I said Mo was dumb not trading him in the offseason but Mo does a lot of dumb things

Re: Is Helsley going to turn to [shirt] like the others before we can even trade him?

Posted: 04 May 2025 17:13 pm
by Melville
Bully4you wrote: 04 May 2025 05:22 am
Melville wrote: 03 May 2025 08:15 am
Bully4you wrote: 03 May 2025 04:37 am He's starting to slide.
Losing infects all
It's a nasty plague that infects most players
Need to trade him before he goes off the
deep end.
No, he is not starting to slide.
Yes, losing (TOXIC CULTURE) has infected the entire organization.
Yes, it is hard for any closer to harness his customary aggressiveness to pitch the 9th in a blowout loss.
No, he can't be used correctly when working for a team which rarely provides save opportunities - and that problem will only continue to get worse as long as The Marmot is allowed to remain a dead man walking because his presence serves only to remind the team that winning is not the goal, not the expectation.
Yes, at this point STL needs to trade him since they ignored the opportunity to sign him to an extension last year - which would have been the CORRECT BASEBALL DECISION as I expertly advised at the time.
Mel,

Your predictions have been subpar lately.
Just like the unicorn, everything else you've
predicted has fallen apart.
Time for you to glance in the mirror.
Just a glance, because it will be hard to do
a full stare with an ego as big as yours.
You may have confused me with someone else.
One, I am a very humble person and have no over-sized ego at all.
I merely analyze information without bias or agenda.
Two, my predictions and analysis continue to have a 90% plus success rate.
Just a few examples in this young season:
I said Lars The Human Sushi-baar would continue to be the same pedestrian (astute readers may see what I did there) player as he has been in the past - and with his current .244 BA, just 11 XBH's in 153 PA's, .682 OPS against LH pitching, and slightly below average defense, he has indeed performed as I said he would.
In various thread discussion concerning lineup construction before the season began, I said Winn fit best at the #2 spot (even though not one person agreed with me) - and sure enough his current .438/.500/.938/1.438 slash line confirms the perfection of my analysis so far.
In those same threads I also stated Donovan belonged in the 3 spot (again, there was widespread objection) - and, of course, he went into today's game at .333/.389/.438/.826 in that role.
(Note: this is the same Brendan Donovan for whom, during ST of 22, I was the only person on the planet who predicted a breakout season.)
I also said the team could surprise, but only if Contreras, Gorman, and Walker exceeded expectations to carry the offense - and yes, I have been correct about that as well.
I said Scott should be the starting CF and that Siani had no meaningful role or purpose in the team's future (most did agree with that) - and so that was ridiculously easy to be correct about.
Many opposed the move of Contreras to 1b - I said it would prove to be the right move and have been right about that.
(Note: some will recall that on the day STL signed Contreras, I was the only person on the planet who predicted he would be moved to 1B as soon as Goldschmidt's contract expired - which is precisely what happened.)
I said that even with yet another full season to prepare, Herrera's defense at C would not improve (again, many objected) - and sure enough, it did not.
We could go on, but my innate modesty recommends that I should not.
Bottom line: no one is perfect, but you will not find better analysis of the Cardinals anytime, anywhere, from anyone.

Re: Is Helsley going to turn to [shirt] like the others before we can even trade him?

Posted: 04 May 2025 17:25 pm
by govman
What, Melville "humble" ? Who knew?

Re: Is Helsley going to turn to [shirt] like the others before we can even trade him?

Posted: 04 May 2025 18:08 pm
by ScotchMIrish
Ozziesfan41 wrote: 04 May 2025 13:05 pm
ScotchMIrish wrote: 04 May 2025 12:46 pm
Ozziesfan41 wrote: 04 May 2025 10:05 am
ScotchMIrish wrote: 04 May 2025 08:09 am
Ozziesfan41 wrote: 03 May 2025 21:40 pm
ScotchMIrish wrote: 03 May 2025 21:28 pm Why trade him for what likely would be peanuts instead of getting the draft pick for someone signing after he turns down the qualifying offer?
y

If he continues to be mediocre he would never turn it down and cards aren’t going to shell out 20
Million on a reliever no matter how good they are cards will never take the risk of giving him QO and he accepts. So if they keep him he walks for nothing
What would you give in exchange for a mediocre reliever who is a pending free agent?
Getting something for him would be better than getting nothing even if it’s no more than a decent relief pitcher prospect. Like I said Mo was dumb to not trade him in the offseason but he likes to wait until they have very little value
You would trade a decent relief pitcher prospect for a mediocre relief pitcher who is a rental?
Multiple teams will be interested in him thinking he can turn it around as long as he is healthy one will offer something decent. Not a top prospect but a decent relief prospect. Like I said Mo was dumb not trading him in the offseason but Mo does a lot of dumb things
It seems your expectations are predicated on other teams having a higher opinion of Helsley than you. If he's that good only teams who need a reliever and have the cash to re-sign him would be interested. No impossible to get a quality prospect in return but unlikely.

Re: Is Helsley going to turn to [shirt] like the others before we can even trade him?

Posted: 04 May 2025 19:01 pm
by Ozziesfan41
ScotchMIrish wrote: 04 May 2025 18:08 pm
Ozziesfan41 wrote: 04 May 2025 13:05 pm
ScotchMIrish wrote: 04 May 2025 12:46 pm
Ozziesfan41 wrote: 04 May 2025 10:05 am
ScotchMIrish wrote: 04 May 2025 08:09 am
Ozziesfan41 wrote: 03 May 2025 21:40 pm
ScotchMIrish wrote: 03 May 2025 21:28 pm Why trade him for what likely would be peanuts instead of getting the draft pick for someone signing after he turns down the qualifying offer?
y

If he continues to be mediocre he would never turn it down and cards aren’t going to shell out 20
Million on a reliever no matter how good they are cards will never take the risk of giving him QO and he accepts. So if they keep him he walks for nothing
What would you give in exchange for a mediocre reliever who is a pending free agent?
Getting something for him would be better than getting nothing even if it’s no more than a decent relief pitcher prospect. Like I said Mo was dumb to not trade him in the offseason but he likes to wait until they have very little value
You would trade a decent relief pitcher prospect for a mediocre relief pitcher who is a rental?
Multiple teams will be interested in him thinking he can turn it around as long as he is healthy one will offer something decent. Not a top prospect but a decent relief prospect. Like I said Mo was dumb not trading him in the offseason but Mo does a lot of dumb things
It seems your expectations are predicated on other teams having a higher opinion of Helsley than you. If he's that good only teams who need a reliever and have the cash to re-sign him would be interested. No impossible to get a quality prospect in return but unlikely.
Well you’re of the opinion that a team will give up a draft pick for him if they will do that they will certainly trade a prospect for him

Re: Is Helsley going to turn to [shirt] like the others before we can even trade him?

Posted: 04 May 2025 21:14 pm
by ScotchMIrish
Ozziesfan41 wrote: 04 May 2025 19:01 pm
ScotchMIrish wrote: 04 May 2025 18:08 pm
Ozziesfan41 wrote: 04 May 2025 13:05 pm
ScotchMIrish wrote: 04 May 2025 12:46 pm
Ozziesfan41 wrote: 04 May 2025 10:05 am
ScotchMIrish wrote: 04 May 2025 08:09 am
Ozziesfan41 wrote: 03 May 2025 21:40 pm
ScotchMIrish wrote: 03 May 2025 21:28 pm Why trade him for what likely would be peanuts instead of getting the draft pick for someone signing after he turns down the qualifying offer?
y

If he continues to be mediocre he would never turn it down and cards aren’t going to shell out 20
Million on a reliever no matter how good they are cards will never take the risk of giving him QO and he accepts. So if they keep him he walks for nothing
What would you give in exchange for a mediocre reliever who is a pending free agent?
Getting something for him would be better than getting nothing even if it’s no more than a decent relief pitcher prospect. Like I said Mo was dumb to not trade him in the offseason but he likes to wait until they have very little value
You would trade a decent relief pitcher prospect for a mediocre relief pitcher who is a rental?
Multiple teams will be interested in him thinking he can turn it around as long as he is healthy one will offer something decent. Not a top prospect but a decent relief prospect. Like I said Mo was dumb not trading him in the offseason but Mo does a lot of dumb things
It seems your expectations are predicated on other teams having a higher opinion of Helsley than you. If he's that good only teams who need a reliever and have the cash to re-sign him would be interested. No impossible to get a quality prospect in return but unlikely.
Well you’re of the opinion that a team will give up a draft pick for him if they will do that they will certainly trade a prospect for him
assuming he is healthy he will turn down the QO. The question then becomes would we get more with the draft pick? I suppose that depends on how good Bloom is at drafting.

Re: Is Helsley going to turn to [shirt] like the others before we can even trade him?

Posted: 04 May 2025 21:42 pm
by Melville
govman wrote: 04 May 2025 17:25 pm What, Melville "humble" ? Who knew?
That surprises you?
I thought I had made it abundantly clear.

Re: Is Helsley going to turn to [shirt] like the others before we can even trade him?

Posted: 04 May 2025 21:50 pm
by Melville
ScotchMIrish wrote: 04 May 2025 21:14 pm
Ozziesfan41 wrote: 04 May 2025 19:01 pm
ScotchMIrish wrote: 04 May 2025 18:08 pm
Ozziesfan41 wrote: 04 May 2025 13:05 pm
ScotchMIrish wrote: 04 May 2025 12:46 pm
Ozziesfan41 wrote: 04 May 2025 10:05 am
ScotchMIrish wrote: 04 May 2025 08:09 am
Ozziesfan41 wrote: 03 May 2025 21:40 pm
ScotchMIrish wrote: 03 May 2025 21:28 pm Why trade him for what likely would be peanuts instead of getting the draft pick for someone signing after he turns down the qualifying offer?
y

If he continues to be mediocre he would never turn it down and cards aren’t going to shell out 20
Million on a reliever no matter how good they are cards will never take the risk of giving him QO and he accepts. So if they keep him he walks for nothing
What would you give in exchange for a mediocre reliever who is a pending free agent?
Getting something for him would be better than getting nothing even if it’s no more than a decent relief pitcher prospect. Like I said Mo was dumb to not trade him in the offseason but he likes to wait until they have very little value
You would trade a decent relief pitcher prospect for a mediocre relief pitcher who is a rental?
Multiple teams will be interested in him thinking he can turn it around as long as he is healthy one will offer something decent. Not a top prospect but a decent relief prospect. Like I said Mo was dumb not trading him in the offseason but Mo does a lot of dumb things
It seems your expectations are predicated on other teams having a higher opinion of Helsley than you. If he's that good only teams who need a reliever and have the cash to re-sign him would be interested. No impossible to get a quality prospect in return but unlikely.
Well you’re of the opinion that a team will give up a draft pick for him if they will do that they will certainly trade a prospect for him
assuming he is healthy he will turn down the QO. The question then becomes would we get more with the draft pick? I suppose that depends on how good Bloom is at drafting.
The question about the value of the compensation pick is valid.
But there is more to it than that alone.
As I have cautioned everyone several times previously, if STL is within 5-6 games of the central lead in July they will be facing an important decision.
Merely tinker with the roster to validate their original claim that they believed they could compete with the group they have - or become full sellers at the deadline.
Do not be shocked if STL chooses to hang on to Helsley under that scenario.

Re: Is Helsley going to turn to [shirt] like the others before we can even trade him?

Posted: 05 May 2025 10:03 am
by ScotchMIrish
Melville wrote: 04 May 2025 21:50 pm
ScotchMIrish wrote: 04 May 2025 21:14 pm
Ozziesfan41 wrote: 04 May 2025 19:01 pm
ScotchMIrish wrote: 04 May 2025 18:08 pm
Ozziesfan41 wrote: 04 May 2025 13:05 pm
ScotchMIrish wrote: 04 May 2025 12:46 pm
Ozziesfan41 wrote: 04 May 2025 10:05 am
ScotchMIrish wrote: 04 May 2025 08:09 am
Ozziesfan41 wrote: 03 May 2025 21:40 pm
ScotchMIrish wrote: 03 May 2025 21:28 pm Why trade him for what likely would be peanuts instead of getting the draft pick for someone signing after he turns down the qualifying offer?
y

If he continues to be mediocre he would never turn it down and cards aren’t going to shell out 20
Million on a reliever no matter how good they are cards will never take the risk of giving him QO and he accepts. So if they keep him he walks for nothing
What would you give in exchange for a mediocre reliever who is a pending free agent?
Getting something for him would be better than getting nothing even if it’s no more than a decent relief pitcher prospect. Like I said Mo was dumb to not trade him in the offseason but he likes to wait until they have very little value
You would trade a decent relief pitcher prospect for a mediocre relief pitcher who is a rental?
Multiple teams will be interested in him thinking he can turn it around as long as he is healthy one will offer something decent. Not a top prospect but a decent relief prospect. Like I said Mo was dumb not trading him in the offseason but Mo does a lot of dumb things
It seems your expectations are predicated on other teams having a higher opinion of Helsley than you. If he's that good only teams who need a reliever and have the cash to re-sign him would be interested. No impossible to get a quality prospect in return but unlikely.
Well you’re of the opinion that a team will give up a draft pick for him if they will do that they will certainly trade a prospect for him
assuming he is healthy he will turn down the QO. The question then becomes would we get more with the draft pick? I suppose that depends on how good Bloom is at drafting.
The question about the value of the compensation pick is valid.
But there is more to it than that alone.
As I have cautioned everyone several times previously, if STL is within 5-6 games of the central lead in July they will be facing an important decision.
Merely tinker with the roster to validate their original claim that they believed they could compete with the group they have - or become full sellers at the deadline.
Do not be shocked if STL chooses to hang on to Helsley under that scenario.
Hard to be full sellers when the big money players have no trade clauses.

Re: Is Helsley going to turn to [shirt] like the others before we can even trade him?

Posted: 05 May 2025 10:33 am
by renostl
ScotchMIrish wrote: 05 May 2025 10:03 am
Melville wrote: 04 May 2025 21:50 pm

The question about the value of the compensation pick is valid.
But there is more to it than that alone.
As I have cautioned everyone several times previously, if STL is within 5-6 games of the central lead in July they will be facing an important decision.
Merely tinker with the roster to validate their original claim that they believed they could compete with the group they have - or become full sellers at the deadline.
Do not be shocked if STL chooses to hang on to Helsley under that scenario.
Hard to be full sellers when the big money players have no trade clauses.
The good news is though how successful do they really need to be
at selling?
Of those NTC contracts, 3 remain in 2026 accounting for $70 million.
Dealing just one of those is good. Of the 3 NA and WC will probably still produce
at or above an average player. Gray is risky. But can he at least produce
or become a very overpaid #3-#5 and have a couple lower paid pitchers out
produce him?

This mess isn't terrible and is fixable.

Re: Is Helsley going to turn to [shirt] like the others before we can even trade him?

Posted: 05 May 2025 18:46 pm
by Melville
ScotchMIrish wrote: 05 May 2025 10:03 am
Melville wrote: 04 May 2025 21:50 pm
ScotchMIrish wrote: 04 May 2025 21:14 pm
Ozziesfan41 wrote: 04 May 2025 19:01 pm
ScotchMIrish wrote: 04 May 2025 18:08 pm
Ozziesfan41 wrote: 04 May 2025 13:05 pm
ScotchMIrish wrote: 04 May 2025 12:46 pm
Ozziesfan41 wrote: 04 May 2025 10:05 am
ScotchMIrish wrote: 04 May 2025 08:09 am
Ozziesfan41 wrote: 03 May 2025 21:40 pm
ScotchMIrish wrote: 03 May 2025 21:28 pm Why trade him for what likely would be peanuts instead of getting the draft pick for someone signing after he turns down the qualifying offer?
y

If he continues to be mediocre he would never turn it down and cards aren’t going to shell out 20
Million on a reliever no matter how good they are cards will never take the risk of giving him QO and he accepts. So if they keep him he walks for nothing
What would you give in exchange for a mediocre reliever who is a pending free agent?
Getting something for him would be better than getting nothing even if it’s no more than a decent relief pitcher prospect. Like I said Mo was dumb to not trade him in the offseason but he likes to wait until they have very little value
You would trade a decent relief pitcher prospect for a mediocre relief pitcher who is a rental?
Multiple teams will be interested in him thinking he can turn it around as long as he is healthy one will offer something decent. Not a top prospect but a decent relief prospect. Like I said Mo was dumb not trading him in the offseason but Mo does a lot of dumb things
It seems your expectations are predicated on other teams having a higher opinion of Helsley than you. If he's that good only teams who need a reliever and have the cash to re-sign him would be interested. No impossible to get a quality prospect in return but unlikely.
Well you’re of the opinion that a team will give up a draft pick for him if they will do that they will certainly trade a prospect for him
assuming he is healthy he will turn down the QO. The question then becomes would we get more with the draft pick? I suppose that depends on how good Bloom is at drafting.
The question about the value of the compensation pick is valid.
But there is more to it than that alone.
As I have cautioned everyone several times previously, if STL is within 5-6 games of the central lead in July they will be facing an important decision.
Merely tinker with the roster to validate their original claim that they believed they could compete with the group they have - or become full sellers at the deadline.
Do not be shocked if STL chooses to hang on to Helsley under that scenario.
Hard to be full sellers when the big money players have no trade clauses.
N/A, Matz, Mikolas - all ridiculously easy to move.
So also are Helsley, Maton, King, Mootbaar.

Re: Is Helsley going to turn to [shirt] like the others before we can even trade him?

Posted: 06 May 2025 10:44 am
by ScotchMIrish
Melville wrote: 05 May 2025 18:46 pm
ScotchMIrish wrote: 05 May 2025 10:03 am
Melville wrote: 04 May 2025 21:50 pm
ScotchMIrish wrote: 04 May 2025 21:14 pm
Ozziesfan41 wrote: 04 May 2025 19:01 pm
ScotchMIrish wrote: 04 May 2025 18:08 pm
Ozziesfan41 wrote: 04 May 2025 13:05 pm
ScotchMIrish wrote: 04 May 2025 12:46 pm
Ozziesfan41 wrote: 04 May 2025 10:05 am
ScotchMIrish wrote: 04 May 2025 08:09 am
Ozziesfan41 wrote: 03 May 2025 21:40 pm
ScotchMIrish wrote: 03 May 2025 21:28 pm Why trade him for what likely would be peanuts instead of getting the draft pick for someone signing after he turns down the qualifying offer?
y

If he continues to be mediocre he would never turn it down and cards aren’t going to shell out 20
Million on a reliever no matter how good they are cards will never take the risk of giving him QO and he accepts. So if they keep him he walks for nothing
What would you give in exchange for a mediocre reliever who is a pending free agent?
Getting something for him would be better than getting nothing even if it’s no more than a decent relief pitcher prospect. Like I said Mo was dumb to not trade him in the offseason but he likes to wait until they have very little value
You would trade a decent relief pitcher prospect for a mediocre relief pitcher who is a rental?
Multiple teams will be interested in him thinking he can turn it around as long as he is healthy one will offer something decent. Not a top prospect but a decent relief prospect. Like I said Mo was dumb not trading him in the offseason but Mo does a lot of dumb things
It seems your expectations are predicated on other teams having a higher opinion of Helsley than you. If he's that good only teams who need a reliever and have the cash to re-sign him would be interested. No impossible to get a quality prospect in return but unlikely.
Well you’re of the opinion that a team will give up a draft pick for him if they will do that they will certainly trade a prospect for him
assuming he is healthy he will turn down the QO. The question then becomes would we get more with the draft pick? I suppose that depends on how good Bloom is at drafting.
The question about the value of the compensation pick is valid.
But there is more to it than that alone.
As I have cautioned everyone several times previously, if STL is within 5-6 games of the central lead in July they will be facing an important decision.
Merely tinker with the roster to validate their original claim that they believed they could compete with the group they have - or become full sellers at the deadline.
Do not be shocked if STL chooses to hang on to Helsley under that scenario.
Hard to be full sellers when the big money players have no trade clauses.
N/A, Matz, Mikolas - all ridiculously easy to move.
So also are Helsley, Maton, King, Mootbaar.
Mikolas has no trade clause. They rest can be traded but for what?

Re: Is Helsley going to turn to [shirt] like the others before we can even trade him?

Posted: 06 May 2025 10:49 am
by sikeston bulldog2
ScotchMIrish wrote: 04 May 2025 18:08 pm
Ozziesfan41 wrote: 04 May 2025 13:05 pm
ScotchMIrish wrote: 04 May 2025 12:46 pm
Ozziesfan41 wrote: 04 May 2025 10:05 am
ScotchMIrish wrote: 04 May 2025 08:09 am
Ozziesfan41 wrote: 03 May 2025 21:40 pm
ScotchMIrish wrote: 03 May 2025 21:28 pm Why trade him for what likely would be peanuts instead of getting the draft pick for someone signing after he turns down the qualifying offer?
y

If he continues to be mediocre he would never turn it down and cards aren’t going to shell out 20
Million on a reliever no matter how good they are cards will never take the risk of giving him QO and he accepts. So if they keep him he walks for nothing
What would you give in exchange for a mediocre reliever who is a pending free agent?
Getting something for him would be better than getting nothing even if it’s no more than a decent relief pitcher prospect. Like I said Mo was dumb to not trade him in the offseason but he likes to wait until they have very little value
You would trade a decent relief pitcher prospect for a mediocre relief pitcher who is a rental?
Multiple teams will be interested in him thinking he can turn it around as long as he is healthy one will offer something decent. Not a top prospect but a decent relief prospect. Like I said Mo was dumb not trading him in the offseason but Mo does a lot of dumb things
It seems your expectations are predicated on other teams having a higher opinion of Helsley than you. If he's that good only teams who need a reliever and have the cash to re-sign him would be interested. No impossible to get a quality prospect in return but unlikely.
I think he’s a league top closer. And if he is on it, icing on the cake.
As mentioned the other team has a say. But that works both ways. Depending their level of desperation and zeal to win, I’d see the return at least a level more than currently valued.