The Marmot: same blunder 2 nights in a row

[Cusecards]

Using Helsley in the 9th inning of a tie game at home is utter stupidity.
I said it last night.
I'm saying it again tonight.
Makes zero sense strategically to use your best strikeout pitcher in the 9th when you know that if there is a 10th inning the opposition with start with a runner in scoring position - which is when the strikeouts will be needed.
It is one thing to make such a silly mistake.
It is quite another to repeat it the very next game.
The Marmot just isn't very bright.

It’s the correct place to pitch your closer at home. Most teams do it. Give yourself a chance to walk it off in the ninth.

And make it highly probable you will lose in extra innings by surrendering the advantage the home team has, if you don't score in the 9th.
Again, not scoring in a tie game at home in the bottom of the 9th does not harm a team at all.
But surrendering a clear advantage in the 10th most certainly does.
And did.
Two nights in a row.
The only defensible reason for STL to pitch Helsley in the 9th in that situation is if the manager's priority is to save the BP from covering innings rather than prioritizing winning the game.
And I have no doubt that is exactly how The Marmot thinks.

How do you surrender the advantage the home team has? You’re basically doing the same thing the visiting team is doing. Your advantage is you CAN use your best reliever in the 9th inning and give yourself a better chance to walk off BEFORE the 10th inning. If you don’t use your reliever, then you’re doing just what the visiting team is doing and you give yourself a chance that you might not use your best reliever.

It’s pure sophistry—the OP’s specialty.

Is that the word for it???
I guess we can add imbecile to:
Narcissist
Liar
Hypocrite

[11WSChamps]

Kind of a catch 22.

You have to get to the 10th inning first.

If you don't use your best (if available) in the 9th and get beat then people will question that move.

I can see both sides of it but you have to play the inning you're in first.

That misses 2 key points.
One, you are playing the 9th on an even field.
But you play the 10th with an advantage to the home team.
Always place the bet when the odds are in your favor.
Two, as a manager, you know for a fact that you will need K's more in extra innings which begin with a runner in scoring position, than in the 9th inning which starts with no runner on base.
Worth noting that Roycroft and Hernandez did not K a single hitter in the 9th and 10th (following Romero not recording a K in the 10th last night).
Helsley has 6 in 3 innings this year.
This is not even a close call.

I guarantee you if the Angels score in the 9th with Fernandez on the mound the forum zealots would be out in full force.

Like I said I can see both sides of the coin here.

[JohnnyMO]

I agree with Melville in principle, but I put this more on Helsley. This was reported on before last year I think. Helsley wanted to know exactly when he was going to be used and not deviate. I remember the broadcasters mentioning early last year that the Cards had came to an agreement to use him in the 9th with a lead or tie, end of story.

[No-Mo-Mo]

Using Helsley in the 9th inning of a tie game at home is utter stupidity.
I said it last night.
I'm saying it again tonight.
Makes zero sense strategically to use your best strikeout pitcher in the 9th when you know that if there is a 10th inning the opposition with start with a runner in scoring position - which is when the strikeouts will be needed.
It is one thing to make such a silly mistake.
It is quite another to repeat it the very next game.
The Marmot just isn't very bright.

Thats why Melville is one of the smartest minds on this forum. !00% correct.

[icon]

Look, Melville is a bombastic blowhard among other things, but to defend Marmol with the notion that everybody does what Marmol did the last 2 games isn't that great of an argument. Maybe one size does not fit all. The Cardinals have the best closer in MLB. So he seems to be a better candidate in a more difficult setting with a gift runner. Why not take your chances in the 9th with a lesser reliever and no gift runner?

Just to dismiss that idea doesn't necessarily mean it fails to deserve consideration at least. I actually think Melville makes a good argument this time.

[spfldan]

I agree with Melville in principle, but I put this more on Helsley. This was reported on before last year I think. Helsley wanted to know exactly when he was going to be used and not deviate. I remember the broadcasters mentioning early last year that the Cards had came to an agreement to use him in the 9th with a lead or tie, end of story.

I said earlier I agree with Mel's take, but you have just hit on the reason why Oli uses Helsley in the 9th. Something about wanting him to come only into a "clean" inning sort of thing, which the decision even more questionable.

[Futuregm2]

Look, Melville is a bombastic blowhard among other things, but to defend Marmol with the notion that everybody does what Marmol did the last 2 games isn't that great of an argument. Maybe one size does not fit all. The Cardinals have the best closer in MLB. So he seems to be a better candidate in a more difficult setting with a gift runner. Why not take your chances in the 9th with a lesser reliever and no gift runner?

Just to dismiss that idea doesn't necessarily mean it fails to deserve consideration at least. I actually think Melville makes a good argument this time.

Again, as someone else pointed out, they were facing the 2-3-4 hitters in the 9th inning. I don’t want my lesser reliever facing Trout with the game on the line. It’s like saving your best hitter on the bench for another situation just because you might need him later on.

[Futuregm2]

And look I’m not an Oli fan, but he does what any manager does or should do in that situation. He puts his best reliever in to face their best hitters in the 9th to give the team the best chance to walk it off in the 9th. And then once he got to the 10th he put in our best K pitcher left. And then once it got to the 11th he did the next best one.

Our last 2 pitchers didn’t have good outings, unfortunately.

[bakker]

No issue at all with using RH in the top of the ninth in a tie game. The trolling isn't even that good anymore.

[Red7]

And look I’m not an Oli fan, but he does what any manager does or should do in that situation. He puts his best reliever in to face their best hitters in the 9th to give the team the best chance to walk it off in the 9th. And then once he got to the 10th he put in our best K pitcher left. And then once it got to the 11th he did the next best one.

Our last 2 pitchers didn’t have good outings, unfortunately.

Neither did the offense in the 9th innings.

[acousticglue]

I've just never felt Fernandez and Roycroft are able to get good results. Whether that be them or coaching. They look good at times yes but results do not stack up.

[BrummerStealsHome]

Using Helsley in the 9th inning of a tie game at home is utter stupidity.
I said it last night.
I'm saying it again tonight.
Makes zero sense strategically to use your best strikeout pitcher in the 9th when you know that if there is a 10th inning the opposition with start with a runner in scoring position - which is when the strikeouts will be needed.
It is one thing to make such a silly mistake.
It is quite another to repeat it the very next game.
The Marmot just isn't very bright.

The Angels using Jansen in the 9th was stupider IMO.

Every manager in baseball uses their closer in the 9th in a tie game when they are the home team. If that's an Oli blunder, then that's an every manager blunder.

Then it's time for some manager to think outside the box and adapt to a recent rule change. Bring your STRIKEOUT guy into the 10th rather than the 9th because doing so lowers the chance on the guy from 2nd scoring.

[Melville]

I agree with Melville in principle, but I put this more on Helsley. This was reported on before last year I think. Helsley wanted to know exactly when he was going to be used and not deviate. I remember the broadcasters mentioning early last year that the Cards had came to an agreement to use him in the 9th with a lead or tie, end of story.

If true, that is even worse on the part of The Marmot.

[Melville]

Using Helsley in the 9th inning of a tie game at home is utter stupidity.
I said it last night.
I'm saying it again tonight.
Makes zero sense strategically to use your best strikeout pitcher in the 9th when you know that if there is a 10th inning the opposition with start with a runner in scoring position - which is when the strikeouts will be needed.
It is one thing to make such a silly mistake.
It is quite another to repeat it the very next game.
The Marmot just isn't very bright.

Thats why Melville is one of the smartest minds on this forum. !00% correct.

Kind words sir!
I enjoy the observation and conversation of the intricacies of the game.
Those critically important details and decisions which never fully show up in a box score - but which have huge impact.
It makes baseball different from, and superior to, all other sports.
We will never know if STL wins those games with a different decision concerning Helsley.
But we know for a fact that The Marmot is 0-2 with that specific decision (while I am 2-0).

[Melville]

Look, Melville is a bombastic blowhard among other things, but to defend Marmol with the notion that everybody does what Marmol did the last 2 games isn't that great of an argument. Maybe one size does not fit all. The Cardinals have the best closer in MLB. So he seems to be a better candidate in a more difficult setting with a gift runner. Why not take your chances in the 9th with a lesser reliever and no gift runner?

Just to dismiss that idea doesn't necessarily mean it fails to deserve consideration at least. I actually think Melville makes a good argument this time.

(Mostly) kind words, sir!
You clearly understand this game well enough to understand the merits of situation-based decision making, rather than (to borrow your apt phrase) to robotically act as if one size fits all teams, players, and situations.

[Melville]

Using Helsley in the 9th inning of a tie game at home is utter stupidity.
I said it last night.
I'm saying it again tonight.
Makes zero sense strategically to use your best strikeout pitcher in the 9th when you know that if there is a 10th inning the opposition with start with a runner in scoring position - which is when the strikeouts will be needed.
It is one thing to make such a silly mistake.
It is quite another to repeat it the very next game.
The Marmot just isn't very bright.

The Angels using Jansen in the 9th was stupider IMO.

Every manager in baseball uses their closer in the 9th in a tie game when they are the home team. If that's an Oli blunder, then that's an every manager blunder.

Then it's time for some manager to think outside the box and adapt to a recent rule change. Bring your STRIKEOUT guy into the 10th rather than the 9th because doing so lowers the chance on the guy from 2nd scoring.

That is EXACTLY the point.
The rules are dramatically different in extra innings than in the 9th.
Which means a manager must look at his roster and adjust how he manages those innings based on the personnel he has available.
There is no logical defense of refusing to use your highest strikeout reliever in the precise situation which most requires a strikeout.
This is not even a close call.