STLtoday.com

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 08:04 am

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 08:00 am

Cranny wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 07:56 am

OldRed wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 06:19 am

WLTFE wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 20:12 pm

OldRed wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 19:03 pm

Cranny wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 19:02 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 18:08 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 16:55 pm After some searching, was able to track down the piece in Viva el birdos where it compared Matheny’s bullpen management to the rest of the league, and he graded out very well (including measuring better than Bochy & Francona).

https://www.vivaelbirdos.com/2016/11/5/ ... efficiency

The majority of media who cover (covered) the Cardinals were eager to parrot the same Matheny narratives over and over, but a deep data dive showed that much of that criticism was likely off target and unfair.

His bullpen management was bad. That’s documented.

Did you read An Old Friend's post and the attached link from VEB? Are you sure your "opinion" is correct?

Give it UP.

Reminds me me of your Cards AAA and Saggese threads...just relentless and having to have the last word...harmless and sad

Yes it is.

Very simple, Red. You and your tag team troll partner should just stay off a thread if you don’t like it.

I do take a particular enjoyment in the folks who want to dispute the piece that I posted but their debate points are basically "just because". People are generally challenged when data doesn't align with their preconceived opinions... and then they react emotionally instead of rationally or cordially.

Sounds like you’re talking about yourself because that’s exactly what you do

Exactly. OldFriend has it in his mind that the Matheny criticism should've been directed at Mo. So he found a Viva article (even though he [shirt] talked the site earlier in this thread) and is getting chummy with Cranny.

It's well documented that Matheny's bullpen use was reactive, random and widely called into question for years. Along with the way he ran the clubhouse, weirdly favored certain players, etc.

OldRed wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 08:00 am

Cranny wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 07:56 am

OldRed wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 06:19 am

WLTFE wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 20:12 pm

OldRed wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 19:03 pm

Cranny wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 19:02 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 18:08 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 16:55 pm After some searching, was able to track down the piece in Viva el birdos where it compared Matheny’s bullpen management to the rest of the league, and he graded out very well (including measuring better than Bochy & Francona).

https://www.vivaelbirdos.com/2016/11/5/ ... efficiency

The majority of media who cover (covered) the Cardinals were eager to parrot the same Matheny narratives over and over, but a deep data dive showed that much of that criticism was likely off target and unfair.

His bullpen management was bad. That’s documented.

Did you read An Old Friend's post and the attached link from VEB? Are you sure your "opinion" is correct?

Give it UP.

Reminds me me of your Cards AAA and Saggese threads...just relentless and having to have the last word...harmless and sad

Yes it is.

Very simple, Red. You and your tag team troll partner should just stay off a thread if you don’t like it.

Very simple, don't tell he how to post. Either that or just report me like you do others.

Apparently there are different rules. i.e....when I'm told to put someone on ignore., I do so.. I certainly wouldn't say I had and lie..and I wouldn't tell others how to post...so I guess I'll get reported...again!

ecleme22 wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 08:11 am

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 08:04 am

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 08:00 am

Cranny wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 07:56 am

OldRed wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 06:19 am

WLTFE wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 20:12 pm

OldRed wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 19:03 pm

Cranny wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 19:02 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 18:08 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 16:55 pm After some searching, was able to track down the piece in Viva el birdos where it compared Matheny’s bullpen management to the rest of the league, and he graded out very well (including measuring better than Bochy & Francona).

https://www.vivaelbirdos.com/2016/11/5/ ... efficiency

The majority of media who cover (covered) the Cardinals were eager to parrot the same Matheny narratives over and over, but a deep data dive showed that much of that criticism was likely off target and unfair.

His bullpen management was bad. That’s documented.

Did you read An Old Friend's post and the attached link from VEB? Are you sure your "opinion" is correct?

Give it UP.

Reminds me me of your Cards AAA and Saggese threads...just relentless and having to have the last word...harmless and sad

Yes it is.

Very simple, Red. You and your tag team troll partner should just stay off a thread if you don’t like it.

I do take a particular enjoyment in the folks who want to dispute the piece that I posted but their debate points are basically "just because". People are generally challenged when data doesn't align with their preconceived opinions... and then they react emotionally instead of rationally or cordially.

Sounds like you’re talking about yourself because that’s exactly what you do

Exactly. OldFriend has it in his mind that the Matheny criticism should've been directed at Mo. So he found a Viva article (even though he [shirt] talked the site earlier in this thread) and is getting chummy with Cranny.

It's well documented that Matheny's bullpen use was reactive, random and widely called into question for years. Along with the way he ran the clubhouse, weirdly favored certain players, etc.

Right. It has nothing to do with a lineup containing Gyorko, Piscotty, Grichuk, Martinez, Greg Garcia, Voit, Peralta, Moss,
Adams, Hazelbaker, etc.

Or a rotation in 2016 of -

Martinez - 3.04 ERA
Waino - 4.62 ERA
Leake - 4.69 ERA
Garcia - 4.67 ERA
Wacha - 5.09 ERA

So basically from 2012 to 2018, when the Cardinals had a good roster, they put up good results, and when they had a not so good roster, they put up not so good results. Doesn't seem like the manager had much of an impact at all.

20 page thread over!

Cranny wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 07:53 am

desertrat23 wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 22:30 pm

Cranny wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 22:12 pm

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 21:07 pm

Cranny wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 20:24 pm

desertrat23 wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 20:10 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 20:03 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 19:28 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 19:03 pm

Cranny wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 19:02 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 18:08 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 16:55 pm After some searching, was able to track down the piece in Viva el birdos where it compared Matheny’s bullpen management to the rest of the league, and he graded out very well (including measuring better than Bochy & Francona).

https://www.vivaelbirdos.com/2016/11/5/ ... efficiency

The majority of media who cover (covered) the Cardinals were eager to parrot the same Matheny narratives over and over, but a deep data dive showed that much of that criticism was likely off target and unfair.

His bullpen management was bad. That’s documented.

Did you read An Old Friend's post and the attached link from VEB? Are you sure your "opinion" is correct?

It’s not an opinion. It’s a fact and well documented.

What specifically do you disagree with in the linked piece? Why didn’t you answer as to whether or not you’d read it?

I did read it.

It’s well documented his bullpen management was bad.

I read it as well. “Other than Kevin Siegrist….” He ended Kevin Siegrist’s career. And Seth Maness’. And Matt Bowman.

Absolute baloney re Siegrist, Maness, and Bowman. You have zero proof of that. It’s just the opinion of an amateur fan.
.

your opinions are an amateur fans opinions also

How many years has Bowman been pitching professionally?
And what possible proof do you have that Matheny “ruined”
Siegrist and Maness? That’s right ………none.

You’re angry. Too emotionally tied to this and to Matheny to have an objective conversation. It’s OK to admit it.

If I’m angry, it’s because a poster makes a claim as a fact that is only an opinion. Matt Bowman, for instance is still pitching professionally today.

Very well. I will amend. Mike Matheny ruined Matt Bowman’s CARDINAL career and the pro careers of Siegrist and Maness.

Cranny wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 08:25 am

ecleme22 wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 08:11 am

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 08:04 am

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 08:00 am

Cranny wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 07:56 am

OldRed wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 06:19 am

WLTFE wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 20:12 pm

OldRed wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 19:03 pm

Cranny wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 19:02 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 18:08 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 16:55 pm After some searching, was able to track down the piece in Viva el birdos where it compared Matheny’s bullpen management to the rest of the league, and he graded out very well (including measuring better than Bochy & Francona).

https://www.vivaelbirdos.com/2016/11/5/ ... efficiency

The majority of media who cover (covered) the Cardinals were eager to parrot the same Matheny narratives over and over, but a deep data dive showed that much of that criticism was likely off target and unfair.

His bullpen management was bad. That’s documented.

Did you read An Old Friend's post and the attached link from VEB? Are you sure your "opinion" is correct?

Give it UP.

Reminds me me of your Cards AAA and Saggese threads...just relentless and having to have the last word...harmless and sad

Yes it is.

Very simple, Red. You and your tag team troll partner should just stay off a thread if you don’t like it.

I do take a particular enjoyment in the folks who want to dispute the piece that I posted but their debate points are basically "just because". People are generally challenged when data doesn't align with their preconceived opinions... and then they react emotionally instead of rationally or cordially.

Sounds like you’re talking about yourself because that’s exactly what you do

Exactly. OldFriend has it in his mind that the Matheny criticism should've been directed at Mo. So he found a Viva article (even though he [shirt] talked the site earlier in this thread) and is getting chummy with Cranny.

It's well documented that Matheny's bullpen use was reactive, random and widely called into question for years. Along with the way he ran the clubhouse, weirdly favored certain players, etc.

Right. It has nothing to do with a lineup containing Gyorko, Piscotty, Grichuk, Martinez, Greg Garcia, Voit, Peralta, Moss,
Adams, Hazelbaker, etc.

Or a rotation in 2016 of -

Martinez - 3.04 ERA
Waino - 4.62 ERA
Leake - 4.69 ERA
Garcia - 4.67 ERA
Wacha - 5.09 ERA

Then maybe the guy who put the weak rosters together shouldn’t still be here almost a decade later.

Cranny wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 08:25 am

ecleme22 wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 08:11 am

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 08:04 am

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 08:00 am

Cranny wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 07:56 am

OldRed wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 06:19 am

WLTFE wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 20:12 pm

OldRed wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 19:03 pm

Cranny wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 19:02 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 18:08 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 16:55 pm After some searching, was able to track down the piece in Viva el birdos where it compared Matheny’s bullpen management to the rest of the league, and he graded out very well (including measuring better than Bochy & Francona).

https://www.vivaelbirdos.com/2016/11/5/ ... efficiency

The majority of media who cover (covered) the Cardinals were eager to parrot the same Matheny narratives over and over, but a deep data dive showed that much of that criticism was likely off target and unfair.

His bullpen management was bad. That’s documented.

Did you read An Old Friend's post and the attached link from VEB? Are you sure your "opinion" is correct?

Give it UP.

Reminds me me of your Cards AAA and Saggese threads...just relentless and having to have the last word...harmless and sad

Yes it is.

Very simple, Red. You and your tag team troll partner should just stay off a thread if you don’t like it.

I do take a particular enjoyment in the folks who want to dispute the piece that I posted but their debate points are basically "just because". People are generally challenged when data doesn't align with their preconceived opinions... and then they react emotionally instead of rationally or cordially.

Sounds like you’re talking about yourself because that’s exactly what you do

Exactly. OldFriend has it in his mind that the Matheny criticism should've been directed at Mo. So he found a Viva article (even though he [shirt] talked the site earlier in this thread) and is getting chummy with Cranny.

It's well documented that Matheny's bullpen use was reactive, random and widely called into question for years. Along with the way he ran the clubhouse, weirdly favored certain players, etc.

Right. It has nothing to do with a lineup containing Gyorko, Piscotty, Grichuk, Martinez, Greg Garcia, Voit, Peralta, Moss,
Adams, Hazelbaker, etc.

Or a rotation in 2016 of -

Martinez - 3.04 ERA
Waino - 4.62 ERA
Leake - 4.69 ERA
Garcia - 4.67 ERA
Wacha - 5.09 ERA

Some Cards offense numbers in 2016:

Garcia: .393 obp
Molina: .787 ops
Adams: .780 ops
Hazel: .775 ops
Diaz: .879 ops!
Carp: .885 ops
Piscotty: .800 ops
Gyroko: .801 ops

6 players hit 20 or more HR.


Do some research next time…

desertrat23 wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 08:36 am

Cranny wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 08:25 am

ecleme22 wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 08:11 am

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 08:04 am

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 08:00 am

Cranny wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 07:56 am

OldRed wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 06:19 am

WLTFE wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 20:12 pm

OldRed wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 19:03 pm

Cranny wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 19:02 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 18:08 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 16:55 pm After some searching, was able to track down the piece in Viva el birdos where it compared Matheny’s bullpen management to the rest of the league, and he graded out very well (including measuring better than Bochy & Francona).

https://www.vivaelbirdos.com/2016/11/5/ ... efficiency

The majority of media who cover (covered) the Cardinals were eager to parrot the same Matheny narratives over and over, but a deep data dive showed that much of that criticism was likely off target and unfair.

His bullpen management was bad. That’s documented.

Did you read An Old Friend's post and the attached link from VEB? Are you sure your "opinion" is correct?

Give it UP.

Reminds me me of your Cards AAA and Saggese threads...just relentless and having to have the last word...harmless and sad

Yes it is.

Very simple, Red. You and your tag team troll partner should just stay off a thread if you don’t like it.

I do take a particular enjoyment in the folks who want to dispute the piece that I posted but their debate points are basically "just because". People are generally challenged when data doesn't align with their preconceived opinions... and then they react emotionally instead of rationally or cordially.

Sounds like you’re talking about yourself because that’s exactly what you do

Exactly. OldFriend has it in his mind that the Matheny criticism should've been directed at Mo. So he found a Viva article (even though he [shirt] talked the site earlier in this thread) and is getting chummy with Cranny.

It's well documented that Matheny's bullpen use was reactive, random and widely called into question for years. Along with the way he ran the clubhouse, weirdly favored certain players, etc.

Right. It has nothing to do with a lineup containing Gyorko, Piscotty, Grichuk, Martinez, Greg Garcia, Voit, Peralta, Moss,
Adams, Hazelbaker, etc.

Or a rotation in 2016 of -

Martinez - 3.04 ERA
Waino - 4.62 ERA
Leake - 4.69 ERA
Garcia - 4.67 ERA
Wacha - 5.09 ERA

Then maybe the guy who put the weak rosters together shouldn’t still be here almost a decade later.

Longest leash of any top executive in the league. Inexplicable.

sdaltons wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 08:47 am

desertrat23 wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 08:36 am

Cranny wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 08:25 am

ecleme22 wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 08:11 am

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 08:04 am

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 08:00 am

Cranny wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 07:56 am

OldRed wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 06:19 am

WLTFE wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 20:12 pm

OldRed wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 19:03 pm

Cranny wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 19:02 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 18:08 pm

His bullpen management was bad. That’s documented.

Did you read An Old Friend's post and the attached link from VEB? Are you sure your "opinion" is correct?

Give it UP.

Reminds me me of your Cards AAA and Saggese threads...just relentless and having to have the last word...harmless and sad

Yes it is.

Very simple, Red. You and your tag team troll partner should just stay off a thread if you don’t like it.

I do take a particular enjoyment in the folks who want to dispute the piece that I posted but their debate points are basically "just because". People are generally challenged when data doesn't align with their preconceived opinions... and then they react emotionally instead of rationally or cordially.

Sounds like you’re talking about yourself because that’s exactly what you do

Exactly. OldFriend has it in his mind that the Matheny criticism should've been directed at Mo. So he found a Viva article (even though he [shirt] talked the site earlier in this thread) and is getting chummy with Cranny.

It's well documented that Matheny's bullpen use was reactive, random and widely called into question for years. Along with the way he ran the clubhouse, weirdly favored certain players, etc.

Right. It has nothing to do with a lineup containing Gyorko, Piscotty, Grichuk, Martinez, Greg Garcia, Voit, Peralta, Moss,
Adams, Hazelbaker, etc.

Or a rotation in 2016 of -

Martinez - 3.04 ERA
Waino - 4.62 ERA
Leake - 4.69 ERA
Garcia - 4.67 ERA
Wacha - 5.09 ERA

Then maybe the guy who put the weak rosters together shouldn’t still be here almost a decade later.

Longest leash of any top executive in the league. Inexplicable.

I’m still trying to wrap my head around Cranny, CTs biggest Mo defender, shoving him under the bus to defend MIKE MATHENY?

Cranny wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 08:25 am

ecleme22 wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 08:11 am

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 08:04 am

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 08:00 am

Cranny wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 07:56 am

OldRed wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 06:19 am

WLTFE wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 20:12 pm

OldRed wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 19:03 pm

Cranny wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 19:02 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 18:08 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 16:55 pm After some searching, was able to track down the piece in Viva el birdos where it compared Matheny’s bullpen management to the rest of the league, and he graded out very well (including measuring better than Bochy & Francona).

https://www.vivaelbirdos.com/2016/11/5/ ... efficiency

The majority of media who cover (covered) the Cardinals were eager to parrot the same Matheny narratives over and over, but a deep data dive showed that much of that criticism was likely off target and unfair.

His bullpen management was bad. That’s documented.

Did you read An Old Friend's post and the attached link from VEB? Are you sure your "opinion" is correct?

Give it UP.

Reminds me me of your Cards AAA and Saggese threads...just relentless and having to have the last word...harmless and sad

Yes it is.

Very simple, Red. You and your tag team troll partner should just stay off a thread if you don’t like it.

I do take a particular enjoyment in the folks who want to dispute the piece that I posted but their debate points are basically "just because". People are generally challenged when data doesn't align with their preconceived opinions... and then they react emotionally instead of rationally or cordially.

Sounds like you’re talking about yourself because that’s exactly what you do

Exactly. OldFriend has it in his mind that the Matheny criticism should've been directed at Mo. So he found a Viva article (even though he [shirt] talked the site earlier in this thread) and is getting chummy with Cranny.

It's well documented that Matheny's bullpen use was reactive, random and widely called into question for years. Along with the way he ran the clubhouse, weirdly favored certain players, etc.

Right. It has nothing to do with a lineup containing Gyorko, Piscotty, Grichuk, Martinez, Greg Garcia, Voit, Peralta, Moss,
Adams, Hazelbaker, etc.

Or a rotation in 2016 of -

Martinez - 3.04 ERA
Waino - 4.62 ERA
Leake - 4.69 ERA
Garcia - 4.67 ERA
Wacha - 5.09 ERA

2016 Cardinals:
Team WAR: 39.4 (9th in MLB)
779 runs scored, 712 runs allowed, +67 run differential
X-W/L: 88-74
Actual W/L: 86-76

Once again, you keep listing a bunch of cherry-picked names--as if that's some kind of compelling argument--without noting the actual underlying production of the players on the roster. The reality is the 2016 Cardinals were a good--not great--team that performed pretty much in-line with their underlying raw production. So why do you persist in trying to weave this utter fiction that Matheny somehow magically made chicken salad out of chicken-s?

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 08:04 am

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 08:00 am

Cranny wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 07:56 am

OldRed wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 06:19 am

WLTFE wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 20:12 pm

OldRed wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 19:03 pm

Cranny wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 19:02 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 18:08 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 16:55 pm After some searching, was able to track down the piece in Viva el birdos where it compared Matheny’s bullpen management to the rest of the league, and he graded out very well (including measuring better than Bochy & Francona).

https://www.vivaelbirdos.com/2016/11/5/ ... efficiency

The majority of media who cover (covered) the Cardinals were eager to parrot the same Matheny narratives over and over, but a deep data dive showed that much of that criticism was likely off target and unfair.

His bullpen management was bad. That’s documented.

Did you read An Old Friend's post and the attached link from VEB? Are you sure your "opinion" is correct?

Give it UP.

Reminds me me of your Cards AAA and Saggese threads...just relentless and having to have the last word...harmless and sad

Yes it is.

Very simple, Red. You and your tag team troll partner should just stay off a thread if you don’t like it.

I do take a particular enjoyment in the folks who want to dispute the piece that I posted but their debate points are basically "just because". People are generally challenged when data doesn't align with their preconceived opinions... and then they react emotionally instead of rationally or cordially.

Sounds like you’re talking about yourself because that’s exactly what you do

That's funny. I don't know why you think that - I'm literally the one that POSTED THE DATA.

NYCardsFan wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 08:52 am

Cranny wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 08:25 am

ecleme22 wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 08:11 am

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 08:04 am

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 08:00 am

Cranny wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 07:56 am

OldRed wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 06:19 am

WLTFE wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 20:12 pm

OldRed wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 19:03 pm

Cranny wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 19:02 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 18:08 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 16:55 pm After some searching, was able to track down the piece in Viva el birdos where it compared Matheny’s bullpen management to the rest of the league, and he graded out very well (including measuring better than Bochy & Francona).

https://www.vivaelbirdos.com/2016/11/5/ ... efficiency

The majority of media who cover (covered) the Cardinals were eager to parrot the same Matheny narratives over and over, but a deep data dive showed that much of that criticism was likely off target and unfair.

His bullpen management was bad. That’s documented.

Did you read An Old Friend's post and the attached link from VEB? Are you sure your "opinion" is correct?

Give it UP.

Reminds me me of your Cards AAA and Saggese threads...just relentless and having to have the last word...harmless and sad

Yes it is.

Very simple, Red. You and your tag team troll partner should just stay off a thread if you don’t like it.

I do take a particular enjoyment in the folks who want to dispute the piece that I posted but their debate points are basically "just because". People are generally challenged when data doesn't align with their preconceived opinions... and then they react emotionally instead of rationally or cordially.

Sounds like you’re talking about yourself because that’s exactly what you do

Exactly. OldFriend has it in his mind that the Matheny criticism should've been directed at Mo. So he found a Viva article (even though he [shirt] talked the site earlier in this thread) and is getting chummy with Cranny.

It's well documented that Matheny's bullpen use was reactive, random and widely called into question for years. Along with the way he ran the clubhouse, weirdly favored certain players, etc.

Right. It has nothing to do with a lineup containing Gyorko, Piscotty, Grichuk, Martinez, Greg Garcia, Voit, Peralta, Moss,
Adams, Hazelbaker, etc.

Or a rotation in 2016 of -

Martinez - 3.04 ERA
Waino - 4.62 ERA
Leake - 4.69 ERA
Garcia - 4.67 ERA
Wacha - 5.09 ERA

2016 Cardinals:
Team WAR: 39.4 (9th in MLB)
779 runs scored, 712 runs allowed, +67 run differential
X-W/L: 88-74
Actual W/L: 86-76

Once again, you keep listing a bunch of cherry-picked names--as if that's supposed to be some kind of compelling argument--without noting the actual underlying production of the players on the roster. The reality is the 2016 Cardinals were a good--not great--team that performed pretty much in-line with their underlying raw production. So why do you persist in trying to weave this utter fiction that Matheny somehow magically transformed chicken-s into chicken salad?

I’m not weaving anything. I’m just saying he did fairly well with some of the average players on the roster. He sure didn’t have All Stars at every position and a bunch of Cy Young candidates in the rotation. If that’s “cherry picking” so be it.

ecleme22 wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 08:11 am Exactly. OldFriend has it in his mind that the Matheny criticism should've been directed at Mo.

Wait... so you're so biased against ME that you're going to say Mozeliak has done a good job and that Matheny was the problem?

That's amazing.

Take a step back, dude. You sound like you're drunk and it's way too early for that, even on a Friday.

Cranny wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 09:04 am

NYCardsFan wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 08:52 am

Cranny wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 08:25 am

ecleme22 wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 08:11 am

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 08:04 am

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 08:00 am

Cranny wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 07:56 am

OldRed wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 06:19 am

WLTFE wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 20:12 pm

OldRed wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 19:03 pm

Cranny wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 19:02 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 18:08 pm

His bullpen management was bad. That’s documented.

Did you read An Old Friend's post and the attached link from VEB? Are you sure your "opinion" is correct?

Give it UP.

Reminds me me of your Cards AAA and Saggese threads...just relentless and having to have the last word...harmless and sad

Yes it is.

Very simple, Red. You and your tag team troll partner should just stay off a thread if you don’t like it.

I do take a particular enjoyment in the folks who want to dispute the piece that I posted but their debate points are basically "just because". People are generally challenged when data doesn't align with their preconceived opinions... and then they react emotionally instead of rationally or cordially.

Sounds like you’re talking about yourself because that’s exactly what you do

Exactly. OldFriend has it in his mind that the Matheny criticism should've been directed at Mo. So he found a Viva article (even though he [shirt] talked the site earlier in this thread) and is getting chummy with Cranny.

It's well documented that Matheny's bullpen use was reactive, random and widely called into question for years. Along with the way he ran the clubhouse, weirdly favored certain players, etc.

Right. It has nothing to do with a lineup containing Gyorko, Piscotty, Grichuk, Martinez, Greg Garcia, Voit, Peralta, Moss,
Adams, Hazelbaker, etc.

Or a rotation in 2016 of -

Martinez - 3.04 ERA
Waino - 4.62 ERA
Leake - 4.69 ERA
Garcia - 4.67 ERA
Wacha - 5.09 ERA

2016 Cardinals:
Team WAR: 39.4 (9th in MLB)
779 runs scored, 712 runs allowed, +67 run differential
X-W/L: 88-74
Actual W/L: 86-76

Once again, you keep listing a bunch of cherry-picked names--as if that's supposed to be some kind of compelling argument--without noting the actual underlying production of the players on the roster. The reality is the 2016 Cardinals were a good--not great--team that performed pretty much in-line with their underlying raw production. So why do you persist in trying to weave this utter fiction that Matheny somehow magically transformed chicken-s into chicken salad?

I’m not weaving anything. I’m just saying he did fairly well with some of the average players on the roster. He sure didn’t have All Stars at every position and a bunch of Cy Young candidates in the rotation. If that’s “cherry picking” so be it.

Some Cards offense numbers in 2016:

Garcia: .393 obp
Molina: .787 ops
Adams: .780 ops
Hazel: .775 ops
Diaz: .879 ops!
Carp: .885 ops
Piscotty: .800 ops
Gyroko: .801 ops

6 players hit 20 or more HR.

Also, no team has an all star at every position.

ecleme22 wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 09:08 am

Cranny wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 09:04 am

NYCardsFan wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 08:52 am

Cranny wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 08:25 am

ecleme22 wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 08:11 am

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 08:04 am

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 08:00 am

Cranny wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 07:56 am

OldRed wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 06:19 am

WLTFE wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 20:12 pm

OldRed wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 19:03 pm

Cranny wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 19:02 pm

Did you read An Old Friend's post and the attached link from VEB? Are you sure your "opinion" is correct?

Give it UP.

Reminds me me of your Cards AAA and Saggese threads...just relentless and having to have the last word...harmless and sad

Yes it is.

Very simple, Red. You and your tag team troll partner should just stay off a thread if you don’t like it.

I do take a particular enjoyment in the folks who want to dispute the piece that I posted but their debate points are basically "just because". People are generally challenged when data doesn't align with their preconceived opinions... and then they react emotionally instead of rationally or cordially.

Sounds like you’re talking about yourself because that’s exactly what you do

Exactly. OldFriend has it in his mind that the Matheny criticism should've been directed at Mo. So he found a Viva article (even though he [shirt] talked the site earlier in this thread) and is getting chummy with Cranny.

It's well documented that Matheny's bullpen use was reactive, random and widely called into question for years. Along with the way he ran the clubhouse, weirdly favored certain players, etc.

Right. It has nothing to do with a lineup containing Gyorko, Piscotty, Grichuk, Martinez, Greg Garcia, Voit, Peralta, Moss,
Adams, Hazelbaker, etc.

Or a rotation in 2016 of -

Martinez - 3.04 ERA
Waino - 4.62 ERA
Leake - 4.69 ERA
Garcia - 4.67 ERA
Wacha - 5.09 ERA

2016 Cardinals:
Team WAR: 39.4 (9th in MLB)
779 runs scored, 712 runs allowed, +67 run differential
X-W/L: 88-74
Actual W/L: 86-76

Once again, you keep listing a bunch of cherry-picked names--as if that's supposed to be some kind of compelling argument--without noting the actual underlying production of the players on the roster. The reality is the 2016 Cardinals were a good--not great--team that performed pretty much in-line with their underlying raw production. So why do you persist in trying to weave this utter fiction that Matheny somehow magically transformed chicken-s into chicken salad?

I’m not weaving anything. I’m just saying he did fairly well with some of the average players on the roster. He sure didn’t have All Stars at every position and a bunch of Cy Young candidates in the rotation. If that’s “cherry picking” so be it.

Some Cards offense numbers in 2016:

Garcia: .393 obp
Molina: .787 ops
Adams: .780 ops
Hazel: .775 ops
Diaz: .879 ops!
Carp: .885 ops
Piscotty: .800 ops
Gyroko: .801 ops

6 players hit 20 or more HR.

Also, no team has an all star at every position.

Wait. You mean he and his staff brought out some good things from average players?

Cranny wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 09:04 am

NYCardsFan wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 08:52 am

Cranny wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 08:25 am

ecleme22 wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 08:11 am

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 08:04 am

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 08:00 am

Cranny wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 07:56 am

OldRed wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 06:19 am

WLTFE wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 20:12 pm

OldRed wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 19:03 pm

Cranny wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 19:02 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 18:08 pm

His bullpen management was bad. That’s documented.

Did you read An Old Friend's post and the attached link from VEB? Are you sure your "opinion" is correct?

Give it UP.

Reminds me me of your Cards AAA and Saggese threads...just relentless and having to have the last word...harmless and sad

Yes it is.

Very simple, Red. You and your tag team troll partner should just stay off a thread if you don’t like it.

I do take a particular enjoyment in the folks who want to dispute the piece that I posted but their debate points are basically "just because". People are generally challenged when data doesn't align with their preconceived opinions... and then they react emotionally instead of rationally or cordially.

Sounds like you’re talking about yourself because that’s exactly what you do

Exactly. OldFriend has it in his mind that the Matheny criticism should've been directed at Mo. So he found a Viva article (even though he [shirt] talked the site earlier in this thread) and is getting chummy with Cranny.

It's well documented that Matheny's bullpen use was reactive, random and widely called into question for years. Along with the way he ran the clubhouse, weirdly favored certain players, etc.

Right. It has nothing to do with a lineup containing Gyorko, Piscotty, Grichuk, Martinez, Greg Garcia, Voit, Peralta, Moss,
Adams, Hazelbaker, etc.

Or a rotation in 2016 of -

Martinez - 3.04 ERA
Waino - 4.62 ERA
Leake - 4.69 ERA
Garcia - 4.67 ERA
Wacha - 5.09 ERA

2016 Cardinals:
Team WAR: 39.4 (9th in MLB)
779 runs scored, 712 runs allowed, +67 run differential
X-W/L: 88-74
Actual W/L: 86-76

Once again, you keep listing a bunch of cherry-picked names--as if that's supposed to be some kind of compelling argument--without noting the actual underlying production of the players on the roster. The reality is the 2016 Cardinals were a good--not great--team that performed pretty much in-line with their underlying raw production. So why do you persist in trying to weave this utter fiction that Matheny somehow magically transformed chicken-s into chicken salad?

I’m not weaving anything. I’m just saying he did fairly well with some of the average players on the roster. He sure didn’t have All Stars at every position and a bunch of Cy Young candidates in the rotation. If that’s “cherry picking” so be it.

No, you have compared him favorably to other Cardinals managers such as Joe Torre and Tony LaRussa based solely on the records of the teams they managed, which is beyond simplistic. In fact, you have asserted that those W/L records "speak for themselves" in evaluating managerial performance, which is of course absurd. And you have clearly asserted--without evidence--that Matheny outperformed the quality of the rosters he was given.

As for your last throw-away observation: during all those years, what teams DID have "All Stars at every position and a bunch of Cy Young candidates in the rotation"? I could go down the rosters of all the other teams and cherry-pick their role players and replacement-level players, but that doesn't mean those names are representative of the overall productivity of the rosters.