In my opinion it's defense first

[Cranny]

With the Cardinals lack of good starting pitching in my opinion any trade they make should be for defense first, then hitting second.

MAYBE we can start over.

Please join in the discussion of what the best infield defense up the middle would be, under the scenarios of Arenado and/or Donovan being traded or not being traded.

[OldRed]

With the Cardinals lack of good starting pitching in my opinion any trade they make should be for defense first, then hitting second.

MAYBE we can start over.

With lack of good starting pitching, which I do not fully agree with, leads to the need for a stellar defense. Question chicken or the egg- does good pitching make defense better, or does good defense enhance the pitching.

Not even a question. Good defense always good pitch or any pitching better.

[OldRed]

With the Cardinals lack of good starting pitching in my opinion any trade they make should be for defense first, then hitting second.

MAYBE we can start over.

Please join in the discussion of what the best infield defense up the middle would be, under the scenarios of Arenado and/or Donovan being traded or not being traded.

I'm on topic and you are not. Start you own thread and quit changing others.

[sikeston bulldog2]

With the Cardinals lack of good starting pitching in my opinion any trade they make should be for defense first, then hitting second.

MAYBE we can start over.

With lack of good starting pitching, which I do not fully agree with, leads to the need for a stellar defense. Question chicken or the egg- does good pitching make defense better, or does good defense enhance the pitching.

Not even a question. Good defense always good pitch or any pitching better.

Defense never takes a night off.

[Cranny]

With the Cardinals lack of good starting pitching in my opinion any trade they make should be for defense first, then hitting second.

MAYBE we can start over.

Please join in the discussion of what the best infield defense up the middle would be, under the scenarios of Arenado and/or Donovan being traded or not being traded.

I'm on topic and you are not. Start you own thread and quit changing others.

I thought this thread was about how important defense is.
And I was on topic.

[OldRed]

With the Cardinals lack of good starting pitching in my opinion any trade they make should be for defense first, then hitting second.

MAYBE we can start over.

Please join in the discussion of what the best infield defense up the middle would be, under the scenarios of Arenado and/or Donovan being traded or not being traded.

I'm on topic and you are not. Start you own thread and quit changing others.

I thought this thread was about how important defense is.
And I was on topic.

Again, you are off topic.

[Goldfan]

Reading about a possible trade with Seattle, with both Lazaro Montes and Jurrangelo Cijntje coming to the Cardinals is exciting. But would the Mariners do it for just Donovan? For the Mariners, it would be their #3 and #7 prospects.

My take on Montes is too slow. And not a good fielder. We can do better. Remember. We need athletes. The better the atheletic ability the more flexibility gained.

If Montes is truly a MOT0 bat, can't you afford to have him in LF, ala Holliday? Especially if Scott is in CF, with his range.

Most would do that. You know my deal. Defense first. Poor fielders get hurt, get found in the field per game, and are a pitchers nightmare.

More at stake that just hitting.

BD, we a cleanup hitter who had a bad throwing arm when MO traded for him well into the season where he couldn’t even throw the ball in the air to the cutoff man. The same fella more than once started climbing the OF wall to catch a ball that landed at the front of warning track. For those here who think defense trumps offense on ML baseball diamond you must have a bad memory. If a team had the ability to have 8 guys play in the field who hit 35HR each with 100RBIS but had stones for hands…..you’d see that lineup every game.

Yes sir if all had those offensive numbers they would score a lot. But with those hands they would give away a lot. It will be at that moment defense wins based on its sustainability. Offense, even eight with tour numbers, takes nights off and can be tamed either way stellar pitching.

You put your best offense on the field and then fill in with gloves around them. The best of both worlds is a player with both but when is a .900 OPS guy on the bench so a .200 hitting glove man can play?

Dale Maxvill. But I hear ya. But let’s trim it down to four studs on offense. Wouldn’t you want your other four to handle the defense part.

I’m not stating this team will anytime soon have to make that decision This team has ONE player, Herrera who apparently will be installed at the most difficult defensive position on the field…..because his bat plays there. That’s not a D first decision

[sikeston bulldog2]

With the Cardinals lack of good starting pitching in my opinion any trade they make should be for defense first, then hitting second.

MAYBE we can start over.

Please join in the discussion of what the best infield defense up the middle would be, under the scenarios of Arenado and/or Donovan being traded or not being traded.

I'm on topic and you are not. Start you own thread and quit changing others.

I thought this thread was about how important defense is.
And I was on topic.

Again, you are off topic.

Confusing is a moving target. What is the focus of your intent- trade- lack of good pitching- need for defense. A combination of.

[Goldfan]

With the Cardinals lack of good starting pitching in my opinion any trade they make should be for defense first, then hitting second.

MAYBE we can start over.

With lack of good starting pitching, which I do not fully agree with, leads to the need for a stellar defense. Question chicken or the egg- does good pitching make defense better, or does good defense enhance the pitching.

Not even a question. Good defense always good pitch or any pitching better.

Fellas, it doesn’t really matter if your team is posting a goose egg…..

[sikeston bulldog2]

Reading about a possible trade with Seattle, with both Lazaro Montes and Jurrangelo Cijntje coming to the Cardinals is exciting. But would the Mariners do it for just Donovan? For the Mariners, it would be their #3 and #7 prospects.

My take on Montes is too slow. And not a good fielder. We can do better. Remember. We need athletes. The better the atheletic ability the more flexibility gained.

If Montes is truly a MOT0 bat, can't you afford to have him in LF, ala Holliday? Especially if Scott is in CF, with his range.

Most would do that. You know my deal. Defense first. Poor fielders get hurt, get found in the field per game, and are a pitchers nightmare.

More at stake that just hitting.

BD, we a cleanup hitter who had a bad throwing arm when MO traded for him well into the season where he couldn’t even throw the ball in the air to the cutoff man. The same fella more than once started climbing the OF wall to catch a ball that landed at the front of warning track. For those here who think defense trumps offense on ML baseball diamond you must have a bad memory. If a team had the ability to have 8 guys play in the field who hit 35HR each with 100RBIS but had stones for hands…..you’d see that lineup every game.

Yes sir if all had those offensive numbers they would score a lot. But with those hands they would give away a lot. It will be at that moment defense wins based on its sustainability. Offense, even eight with tour numbers, takes nights off and can be tamed either way stellar pitching.

You put your best offense on the field and then fill in with gloves around them. The best of both worlds is a player with both but when is a .900 OPS guy on the bench so a .200 hitting glove man can play?

Dale Maxvill. But I hear ya. But let’s trim it down to four studs on offense. Wouldn’t you want your other four to handle the defense part.

I’m not stating this team will anytime soon have to make that decision This team has ONE player, Herrera who apparently will be installed at the most difficult defensive position on the field…..because his bat plays there. That’s not a D first decision

You are right there. I’d groom him for left. Kinda like the first base on the infield. Dumping/training positions.

[WLTFE]

With the Cardinals lack of good starting pitching in my opinion any trade they make should be for defense first, then hitting second.

MAYBE we can start over.

Please join in the discussion of what the best infield defense up the middle would be, under the scenarios of Arenado and/or Donovan being traded or not being traded.

I'm on topic and you are not. Start you own thread and quit changing others.

I thought this thread was about how important defense is.
And I was on topic.

Again, you are off topic.

Sigh...looks like Baghdad Bob is highjacking another thread...

[riff raff]

Bring out the simp !

[WLTFE]

Bring out the simp !

[WLTFE]

Bring out the simp !

sock apparently in the house!

[renostl]

Not an overall bad write. Your bottom six lines are valid. Using - petty little kick, snark, diminishes that message.

Okay, SB, good idea. Let's get back on track. With the Cards adding Fitts and hopefully May to the rotation, and Kent and Pushard to the bullpen, what do you emphasize in a trade with either the Giants or the Mariners? Another starter or a position player (hopefully power corner outfielder)? Or both, if you need to add another player on top of Donovan to go to Seattle.

Also, with Red talking about defense, if Donovan is traded, what's your best up the middle (infield) defense? Winn and JJ? Or put JJ at third and play Saggese at second?

Superb write. One of your best.

Ok I don’t know if I can emphasize a return physically, but I do believe I can emphasize an intent. Your right. What it might be? I’m thinking pitching.

I’m stead fast- with Arenado it’s arenado Winn JJ and some body at first.

Without arenado it’s JJ Winn ?? At second somebody at first.

If Arenado isn't traded, the picture is pretty clear with JJ at 2B. But if Arenado is traded (which Bloom is pretty sure he will be), then decisions have to be made. What gives you the best defense up the middle, as Red is asking for? JJ at 2B? JJ at 3B and Saggese or Fermin at 2B? If that's the case, who's the better defender at 2B between Saggese and Fermin?

JJ at second reminds me of Herr and Ozzie. If we have no Nado then second becomes arbitrary and I’d try JJ at third.

As for the other two at second. They would degrade the up the middle from the afore mentioned set up, but how much? If minimal either can play it.

How about going with JJ at 2B and Saggese at 3B?

How many baseballs are hit to 2B vs 3B? How many balls does a step in range make a difference?
Which one has that step? When the ball isn't converted is it a single or a double? Which position
is it more difficult to find average hitting in regard to that position?
Where is the better organizational depth 2B or 3B. JJ gets the longest runway IMO.
Arm, I see scout reports that JJ has an average arm for SS. Assuming that is true, IMO, he'd have the better arm.
With all of that in the thoughts, I'd be tempted to put JJ at 3B and leave him alone. Saggese may or
may not win a starting position, either way he can spell JJ at 3B.

[Cranny]

"Granny"? LOL. You're classless, Zuke.

Classless says the guy who hasn't called my name right once since you were proven so wrong! Isn't it past bed time for you? Did you miss your nap today? My goodness! You made a statement that was proven false, you won't admit you're wrong, and you just continue to pout like a baby! It is a baseball forum, not life or death "Granny"!

Making a mountain out of a mole hole and calling people names is totally classless, zuck. And now you talk about bed time and taking a nap? Adding more insults? Seriously, don't you have better things to do than to snark up an anonymous baseball forum? Why don't you get off your petty little kick and talk some baseball. Like when the next trade may occur. Whom we might get for Donovan. Comment on the possible Giants or Mariners trade. Top prospects that may come back, as suggested by other posters. Stuff like that.

Not an overall bad write. Your bottom six lines are valid. Using - petty little kick, snark, diminishes that message.

Okay, SB, good idea. Let's get back on track. With the Cards adding Fitts and hopefully May to the rotation, and Kent and Pushard to the bullpen, what do you emphasize in a trade with either the Giants or the Mariners? Another starter or a position player (hopefully power corner outfielder)? Or both, if you need to add another player on top of Donovan to go to Seattle.

Also, with Red talking about defense, if Donovan is traded, what's your best up the middle (infield) defense? Winn and JJ? Or put JJ at third and play Saggese at second?

Superb write. One of your best.

Ok I don’t know if I can emphasize a return physically, but I do believe I can emphasize an intent. Your right. What it might be? I’m thinking pitching.



I’m stead fast- with Arenado it’s arenado Winn JJ and some body at first.

Without arenado it’s JJ Winn ?? At second somebody at first.

If Arenado isn't traded, the picture is pretty clear with JJ at 2B. But if Arenado is traded (which Bloom is pretty sure he will be), then decisions have to be made. What gives you the best defense up the middle, as Red is asking for? JJ at 2B? JJ at 3B and Saggese or Fermin at 2B? If that's the case, who's the better defender at 2B between Saggese and Fermin?

JJ at second reminds me of Herr and Ozzie. If we have no Nado then second becomes arbitrary and I’d try JJ at third.

As for the other two at second. They would degrade the up the middle from the afore mentioned set up, but how much? If minimal either can play it.

How about going with JJ at 2B and Saggese at 3B?

I’m sure that will suffice. And should seal the middle. But Saggese at the corner is a power hole which we are defiency in.

On his way up, Saggese had 26 home runs at AAA in 780 PAs. Would 20 home runs at the 3B position suffice, if he can deliver that?

Tommy has 3HR in 325 ML at bats……that equates to about 6HR in a full season…..heck we’ll give him 7…..

A lot of hitters have struggled when first brought up.