STLtoday.com

sdaltons wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025 09:11 am

Cranny wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025 07:35 am

Bad14 wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025 07:26 am

Cranny wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025 07:16 am

ecleme22 wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025 07:05 am

Cranny wrote: ↑19 Aug 2025 22:43 pm

Poojols wrote: ↑19 Aug 2025 22:01 pm

rbirules wrote: ↑19 Aug 2025 08:55 am These are just recycled arguments of Cranny's from ~10 years ago. The threads always go the same way.

Somebody criticizes Matheny.
Cranny defends him and says he was good.
Person talks about why they think Matheny wasn't good.
Cranny brings up lack of MOTO bat in the last year's of Matheny's tenure.
People mention he was given a great roster to begin with (2012-2015).
Cranny evades this, or down plays Matheny's role in those teams not having more post season success.
Cranny brings up Matheny's Cardinals winning % and how it was higher than a few HOFs.
People mention that ignores context of not being there through a down cycle (as he was fired).
Cranny (conveniently) ignores Matheny's winning % outside of St. Louis (KC).
People push back on this and say it ignores context and you can't just use a blunt instrument to judge managers.
Cranny: "Oh well I'm not a professional manager so I cant' judge his in game tactics.
Then why did you defend him so fiercely?
Cranny: You're not a professional manager so you shouldn't be allowed to judge him either.
Can we judge GMs, POBO, players, politicians if we didn't do those jobs at the highest levels? Why does this forum even exist if we have to be a professional to comment on something (in this case Cardinals baseball)?

This is spot on. I've been in some of those "debates" over the past decade and the Matheny ball jugglers can really only point to regular season win %. I put debates in quotes as it was more of a schooling for the Crannys and ScotchMIrishs of the forum, not an actual conversation.

And let's be honest, they only love Matheny because of the Christian factor. Too biased for honesty.

That’s part of it, Poojols. Who you think played a leadership role in helping all his teammates deal with the Kile tragedy?

Oh I remember you mentioning this before. Implying he taught a young Pujols about death. lol

You’re really reaching here.

It was documented, Ecleme. A very difficult time for the players, coaches, and manager. Matheny was very helpful to a number of people.

When I think back, one of the biggest problems Matheny had was with Molina, whom he had mentored when he was a player. They got into it because Matheny wanted him to take a day off every now and then, and Molina wanted to play every day. Maybe that created his desire to improve his people skills as things became nasty and public.

You sound more ridiculous with each post.

I doubt that, Bad. What I’m talking about was public knowledge.

The poster who said he respected Matheny as a player and as a man was the closest to being accurate.
Did he have his shortcomings as a manager? Sure. He was put into a position he wasn’t trained or prepared for. He tried hard to integrate analytics into managing based upon his playing experience and fell short.
It was his demise.

Well at least we can agree that even back in 2012, Mo was making bad decisions.

sdaltons wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025 09:11 am

Cranny wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025 07:35 am

Bad14 wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025 07:26 am

Cranny wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025 07:16 am

ecleme22 wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025 07:05 am

Cranny wrote: ↑19 Aug 2025 22:43 pm

Poojols wrote: ↑19 Aug 2025 22:01 pm

rbirules wrote: ↑19 Aug 2025 08:55 am These are just recycled arguments of Cranny's from ~10 years ago. The threads always go the same way.

Somebody criticizes Matheny.
Cranny defends him and says he was good.
Person talks about why they think Matheny wasn't good.
Cranny brings up lack of MOTO bat in the last year's of Matheny's tenure.
People mention he was given a great roster to begin with (2012-2015).
Cranny evades this, or down plays Matheny's role in those teams not having more post season success.
Cranny brings up Matheny's Cardinals winning % and how it was higher than a few HOFs.
People mention that ignores context of not being there through a down cycle (as he was fired).
Cranny (conveniently) ignores Matheny's winning % outside of St. Louis (KC).
People push back on this and say it ignores context and you can't just use a blunt instrument to judge managers.
Cranny: "Oh well I'm not a professional manager so I cant' judge his in game tactics.
Then why did you defend him so fiercely?
Cranny: You're not a professional manager so you shouldn't be allowed to judge him either.
Can we judge GMs, POBO, players, politicians if we didn't do those jobs at the highest levels? Why does this forum even exist if we have to be a professional to comment on something (in this case Cardinals baseball)?

This is spot on. I've been in some of those "debates" over the past decade and the Matheny ball jugglers can really only point to regular season win %. I put debates in quotes as it was more of a schooling for the Crannys and ScotchMIrishs of the forum, not an actual conversation.

And let's be honest, they only love Matheny because of the Christian factor. Too biased for honesty.

That’s part of it, Poojols. Who you think played a leadership role in helping all his teammates deal with the Kile tragedy?

Oh I remember you mentioning this before. Implying he taught a young Pujols about death. lol

You’re really reaching here.

It was documented, Ecleme. A very difficult time for the players, coaches, and manager. Matheny was very helpful to a number of people.

When I think back, one of the biggest problems Matheny had was with Molina, whom he had mentored when he was a player. They got into it because Matheny wanted him to take a day off every now and then, and Molina wanted to play every day. Maybe that created his desire to improve his people skills as things became nasty and public.

You sound more ridiculous with each post.

I doubt that, Bad. What I’m talking about was public knowledge.

The poster who said he respected Matheny as a player and as a man was the closest to being accurate.
Did he have his shortcomings as a manager? Sure. He was put into a position he wasn’t trained or prepared for. He tried hard to integrate analytics into managing based upon his playing experience and fell short.
It was his demise.

Well at least we can agree that even back in 2012, Mo was making bad decisions.

Cranny wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025 12:06 pm

sdaltons wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025 09:11 am

Cranny wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025 07:35 am

Bad14 wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025 07:26 am

Cranny wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025 07:16 am

ecleme22 wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025 07:05 am

Cranny wrote: ↑19 Aug 2025 22:43 pm

Poojols wrote: ↑19 Aug 2025 22:01 pm

rbirules wrote: ↑19 Aug 2025 08:55 am These are just recycled arguments of Cranny's from ~10 years ago. The threads always go the same way.

Somebody criticizes Matheny.
Cranny defends him and says he was good.
Person talks about why they think Matheny wasn't good.
Cranny brings up lack of MOTO bat in the last year's of Matheny's tenure.
People mention he was given a great roster to begin with (2012-2015).
Cranny evades this, or down plays Matheny's role in those teams not having more post season success.
Cranny brings up Matheny's Cardinals winning % and how it was higher than a few HOFs.
People mention that ignores context of not being there through a down cycle (as he was fired).
Cranny (conveniently) ignores Matheny's winning % outside of St. Louis (KC).
People push back on this and say it ignores context and you can't just use a blunt instrument to judge managers.
Cranny: "Oh well I'm not a professional manager so I cant' judge his in game tactics.
Then why did you defend him so fiercely?
Cranny: You're not a professional manager so you shouldn't be allowed to judge him either.
Can we judge GMs, POBO, players, politicians if we didn't do those jobs at the highest levels? Why does this forum even exist if we have to be a professional to comment on something (in this case Cardinals baseball)?

This is spot on. I've been in some of those "debates" over the past decade and the Matheny ball jugglers can really only point to regular season win %. I put debates in quotes as it was more of a schooling for the Crannys and ScotchMIrishs of the forum, not an actual conversation.

And let's be honest, they only love Matheny because of the Christian factor. Too biased for honesty.

That’s part of it, Poojols. Who you think played a leadership role in helping all his teammates deal with the Kile tragedy?

Oh I remember you mentioning this before. Implying he taught a young Pujols about death. lol

You’re really reaching here.

It was documented, Ecleme. A very difficult time for the players, coaches, and manager. Matheny was very helpful to a number of people.

When I think back, one of the biggest problems Matheny had was with Molina, whom he had mentored when he was a player. They got into it because Matheny wanted him to take a day off every now and then, and Molina wanted to play every day. Maybe that created his desire to improve his people skills as things became nasty and public.

You sound more ridiculous with each post.

I doubt that, Bad. What I’m talking about was public knowledge.

The poster who said he respected Matheny as a player and as a man was the closest to being accurate.
Did he have his shortcomings as a manager? Sure. He was put into a position he wasn’t trained or prepared for. He tried hard to integrate analytics into managing based upon his playing experience and fell short.
It was his demise.

Well at least we can agree that even back in 2012, Mo was making bad decisions.

Some bad, some good, sdaltons. Just like almost every other GM or POBO>

sdaltons wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025 12:51 pm

Cranny wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025 12:06 pm

sdaltons wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025 09:11 am

Cranny wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025 07:35 am

Bad14 wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025 07:26 am

Cranny wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025 07:16 am

ecleme22 wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025 07:05 am

Cranny wrote: ↑19 Aug 2025 22:43 pm

Poojols wrote: ↑19 Aug 2025 22:01 pm

rbirules wrote: ↑19 Aug 2025 08:55 am These are just recycled arguments of Cranny's from ~10 years ago. The threads always go the same way.

Somebody criticizes Matheny.
Cranny defends him and says he was good.
Person talks about why they think Matheny wasn't good.
Cranny brings up lack of MOTO bat in the last year's of Matheny's tenure.
People mention he was given a great roster to begin with (2012-2015).
Cranny evades this, or down plays Matheny's role in those teams not having more post season success.
Cranny brings up Matheny's Cardinals winning % and how it was higher than a few HOFs.
People mention that ignores context of not being there through a down cycle (as he was fired).
Cranny (conveniently) ignores Matheny's winning % outside of St. Louis (KC).
People push back on this and say it ignores context and you can't just use a blunt instrument to judge managers.
Cranny: "Oh well I'm not a professional manager so I cant' judge his in game tactics.
Then why did you defend him so fiercely?
Cranny: You're not a professional manager so you shouldn't be allowed to judge him either.
Can we judge GMs, POBO, players, politicians if we didn't do those jobs at the highest levels? Why does this forum even exist if we have to be a professional to comment on something (in this case Cardinals baseball)?

This is spot on. I've been in some of those "debates" over the past decade and the Matheny ball jugglers can really only point to regular season win %. I put debates in quotes as it was more of a schooling for the Crannys and ScotchMIrishs of the forum, not an actual conversation.

And let's be honest, they only love Matheny because of the Christian factor. Too biased for honesty.

That’s part of it, Poojols. Who you think played a leadership role in helping all his teammates deal with the Kile tragedy?

Oh I remember you mentioning this before. Implying he taught a young Pujols about death. lol

You’re really reaching here.

It was documented, Ecleme. A very difficult time for the players, coaches, and manager. Matheny was very helpful to a number of people.

When I think back, one of the biggest problems Matheny had was with Molina, whom he had mentored when he was a player. They got into it because Matheny wanted him to take a day off every now and then, and Molina wanted to play every day. Maybe that created his desire to improve his people skills as things became nasty and public.

You sound more ridiculous with each post.

I doubt that, Bad. What I’m talking about was public knowledge.

The poster who said he respected Matheny as a player and as a man was the closest to being accurate.
Did he have his shortcomings as a manager? Sure. He was put into a position he wasn’t trained or prepared for. He tried hard to integrate analytics into managing based upon his playing experience and fell short.
It was his demise.

Well at least we can agree that even back in 2012, Mo was making bad decisions.

Some bad, some good, sdaltons. Just like almost every other GM or POBO>

Not one single other name in either of those categories ran their team for 18 years. And that includes people who had far more success than Mo achieved over a decade ago.

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025 07:34 am

Poojols wrote: ↑19 Aug 2025 22:01 pm

rbirules wrote: ↑19 Aug 2025 08:55 am These are just recycled arguments of Cranny's from ~10 years ago. The threads always go the same way.

Somebody criticizes Matheny.
Cranny defends him and says he was good.
Person talks about why they think Matheny wasn't good.
Cranny brings up lack of MOTO bat in the last year's of Matheny's tenure.
People mention he was given a great roster to begin with (2012-2015).
Cranny evades this, or down plays Matheny's role in those teams not having more post season success.
Cranny brings up Matheny's Cardinals winning % and how it was higher than a few HOFs.
People mention that ignores context of not being there through a down cycle (as he was fired).
Cranny (conveniently) ignores Matheny's winning % outside of St. Louis (KC).
People push back on this and say it ignores context and you can't just use a blunt instrument to judge managers.
Cranny: "Oh well I'm not a professional manager so I cant' judge his in game tactics.
Then why did you defend him so fiercely?
Cranny: You're not a professional manager so you shouldn't be allowed to judge him either.
Can we judge GMs, POBO, players, politicians if we didn't do those jobs at the highest levels? Why does this forum even exist if we have to be a professional to comment on something (in this case Cardinals baseball)?

This is spot on. I've been in some of those "debates" over the past decade and the Matheny ball jugglers can really only point to regular season win %. I put debates in quotes as it was more of a schooling for the Crannys and ScotchMIrishs of the forum, not an actual conversation.

And let's be honest, they only love Matheny because of the Christian factor. Too biased for honesty.

I think the Christian factor is why he took so much heat. Name the last manager since Matheny to win the NL without Pujols on the roster.

LaRussa's final 6 seasons with Pujols
2006 - 83
2007 - 78
2008 - 86
2009 - 91
2010 - 86
2011 - 90
________
514

Matheny's 6 seasons without Pujols
2012 - 88
2013 - 97
2014 - 90
2015 - 100
2016 - 86
2017 - 83
________
544

LaRussa's first 6 seasons without Pujols
1996 - 88
1997 - 73
1998 - 83
1999 - 75
2000 - 95
2001 - 93
________
507

6 seasons after Matheny
2019 - 91
covid 30-28 extrapolate to 162 = 84
2021 - 90
2022 - 93
2023 - 71
2024 - 83
________
512

Cranny wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025 13:08 pm You're right. BDW Jr. is a very loyal employer. He's not the type to cut people off at the knees if they don't perform.

An Old Friend wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025 14:09 pm

Cranny wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025 13:08 pm You're right. BDW Jr. is a very loyal employer. He's not the type to cut people off at the knees if they don't perform.

He’s just like Reinsdorf in that regard… he’s taken an absolute monster of a franchise & brand and made it an afterthought.

Poojols wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025 13:45 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025 07:34 am

Poojols wrote: ↑19 Aug 2025 22:01 pm

rbirules wrote: ↑19 Aug 2025 08:55 am These are just recycled arguments of Cranny's from ~10 years ago. The threads always go the same way.

Somebody criticizes Matheny.
Cranny defends him and says he was good.
Person talks about why they think Matheny wasn't good.
Cranny brings up lack of MOTO bat in the last year's of Matheny's tenure.
People mention he was given a great roster to begin with (2012-2015).
Cranny evades this, or down plays Matheny's role in those teams not having more post season success.
Cranny brings up Matheny's Cardinals winning % and how it was higher than a few HOFs.
People mention that ignores context of not being there through a down cycle (as he was fired).
Cranny (conveniently) ignores Matheny's winning % outside of St. Louis (KC).
People push back on this and say it ignores context and you can't just use a blunt instrument to judge managers.
Cranny: "Oh well I'm not a professional manager so I cant' judge his in game tactics.
Then why did you defend him so fiercely?
Cranny: You're not a professional manager so you shouldn't be allowed to judge him either.
Can we judge GMs, POBO, players, politicians if we didn't do those jobs at the highest levels? Why does this forum even exist if we have to be a professional to comment on something (in this case Cardinals baseball)?

This is spot on. I've been in some of those "debates" over the past decade and the Matheny ball jugglers can really only point to regular season win %. I put debates in quotes as it was more of a schooling for the Crannys and ScotchMIrishs of the forum, not an actual conversation.

And let's be honest, they only love Matheny because of the Christian factor. Too biased for honesty.

I think the Christian factor is why he took so much heat. Name the last manager since Matheny to win the NL without Pujols on the roster.

LaRussa's final 6 seasons with Pujols
2006 - 83
2007 - 78
2008 - 86
2009 - 91
2010 - 86
2011 - 90
________
514

Matheny's 6 seasons without Pujols
2012 - 88
2013 - 97
2014 - 90
2015 - 100
2016 - 86
2017 - 83
________
544

LaRussa's first 6 seasons without Pujols
1996 - 88
1997 - 73
1998 - 83
1999 - 75
2000 - 95
2001 - 93
________
507

6 seasons after Matheny
2019 - 91
covid 30-28 extrapolate to 162 = 84
2021 - 90
2022 - 93
2023 - 71
2024 - 83
________
512

You just did step 4 in rbirules breakdown. Regular season wins. You can't make this stuff up.

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025 14:27 pm

Poojols wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025 13:45 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025 07:34 am

Poojols wrote: ↑19 Aug 2025 22:01 pm

rbirules wrote: ↑19 Aug 2025 08:55 am These are just recycled arguments of Cranny's from ~10 years ago. The threads always go the same way.

Somebody criticizes Matheny.
Cranny defends him and says he was good.
Person talks about why they think Matheny wasn't good.
Cranny brings up lack of MOTO bat in the last year's of Matheny's tenure.
People mention he was given a great roster to begin with (2012-2015).
Cranny evades this, or down plays Matheny's role in those teams not having more post season success.
Cranny brings up Matheny's Cardinals winning % and how it was higher than a few HOFs.
People mention that ignores context of not being there through a down cycle (as he was fired).
Cranny (conveniently) ignores Matheny's winning % outside of St. Louis (KC).
People push back on this and say it ignores context and you can't just use a blunt instrument to judge managers.
Cranny: "Oh well I'm not a professional manager so I cant' judge his in game tactics.
Then why did you defend him so fiercely?
Cranny: You're not a professional manager so you shouldn't be allowed to judge him either.
Can we judge GMs, POBO, players, politicians if we didn't do those jobs at the highest levels? Why does this forum even exist if we have to be a professional to comment on something (in this case Cardinals baseball)?

This is spot on. I've been in some of those "debates" over the past decade and the Matheny ball jugglers can really only point to regular season win %. I put debates in quotes as it was more of a schooling for the Crannys and ScotchMIrishs of the forum, not an actual conversation.

And let's be honest, they only love Matheny because of the Christian factor. Too biased for honesty.

I think the Christian factor is why he took so much heat. Name the last manager since Matheny to win the NL without Pujols on the roster.

LaRussa's final 6 seasons with Pujols
2006 - 83
2007 - 78
2008 - 86
2009 - 91
2010 - 86
2011 - 90
________
514

Matheny's 6 seasons without Pujols
2012 - 88
2013 - 97
2014 - 90
2015 - 100
2016 - 86
2017 - 83
________
544

LaRussa's first 6 seasons without Pujols
1996 - 88
1997 - 73
1998 - 83
1999 - 75
2000 - 95
2001 - 93
________
507

6 seasons after Matheny
2019 - 91
covid 30-28 extrapolate to 162 = 84
2021 - 90
2022 - 93
2023 - 71
2024 - 83
________
512

You just did step 4 in rbirules breakdown. Regular season wins. You can't make this stuff up.

Can rbirules name the last manager to win the NL without Pujols on the roster?

ecleme22 wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025 14:33 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025 14:27 pm

Poojols wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025 13:45 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025 07:34 am

Poojols wrote: ↑19 Aug 2025 22:01 pm

rbirules wrote: ↑19 Aug 2025 08:55 am These are just recycled arguments of Cranny's from ~10 years ago. The threads always go the same way.

Somebody criticizes Matheny.
Cranny defends him and says he was good.
Person talks about why they think Matheny wasn't good.
Cranny brings up lack of MOTO bat in the last year's of Matheny's tenure.
People mention he was given a great roster to begin with (2012-2015).
Cranny evades this, or down plays Matheny's role in those teams not having more post season success.
Cranny brings up Matheny's Cardinals winning % and how it was higher than a few HOFs.
People mention that ignores context of not being there through a down cycle (as he was fired).
Cranny (conveniently) ignores Matheny's winning % outside of St. Louis (KC).
People push back on this and say it ignores context and you can't just use a blunt instrument to judge managers.
Cranny: "Oh well I'm not a professional manager so I cant' judge his in game tactics.
Then why did you defend him so fiercely?
Cranny: You're not a professional manager so you shouldn't be allowed to judge him either.
Can we judge GMs, POBO, players, politicians if we didn't do those jobs at the highest levels? Why does this forum even exist if we have to be a professional to comment on something (in this case Cardinals baseball)?

This is spot on. I've been in some of those "debates" over the past decade and the Matheny ball jugglers can really only point to regular season win %. I put debates in quotes as it was more of a schooling for the Crannys and ScotchMIrishs of the forum, not an actual conversation.

And let's be honest, they only love Matheny because of the Christian factor. Too biased for honesty.

I think the Christian factor is why he took so much heat. Name the last manager since Matheny to win the NL without Pujols on the roster.

LaRussa's final 6 seasons with Pujols
2006 - 83
2007 - 78
2008 - 86
2009 - 91
2010 - 86
2011 - 90
________
514

Matheny's 6 seasons without Pujols
2012 - 88
2013 - 97
2014 - 90
2015 - 100
2016 - 86
2017 - 83
________
544

LaRussa's first 6 seasons without Pujols
1996 - 88
1997 - 73
1998 - 83
1999 - 75
2000 - 95
2001 - 93
________
507

6 seasons after Matheny
2019 - 91
covid 30-28 extrapolate to 162 = 84
2021 - 90
2022 - 93
2023 - 71
2024 - 83
________
512

You just did step 4 in rbirules breakdown. Regular season wins. You can't make this stuff up.

Can rbirules name the last manager to win the NL without Pujols on the roster?

Dave Roberts

Cranny wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025 13:08 pm

sdaltons wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025 12:51 pm

Cranny wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025 12:06 pm

sdaltons wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025 09:11 am

Cranny wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025 07:35 am

Bad14 wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025 07:26 am

Cranny wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025 07:16 am

ecleme22 wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025 07:05 am

Cranny wrote: ↑19 Aug 2025 22:43 pm

Poojols wrote: ↑19 Aug 2025 22:01 pm

rbirules wrote: ↑19 Aug 2025 08:55 am These are just recycled arguments of Cranny's from ~10 years ago. The threads always go the same way.

Somebody criticizes Matheny.
Cranny defends him and says he was good.
Person talks about why they think Matheny wasn't good.
Cranny brings up lack of MOTO bat in the last year's of Matheny's tenure.
People mention he was given a great roster to begin with (2012-2015).
Cranny evades this, or down plays Matheny's role in those teams not having more post season success.
Cranny brings up Matheny's Cardinals winning % and how it was higher than a few HOFs.
People mention that ignores context of not being there through a down cycle (as he was fired).
Cranny (conveniently) ignores Matheny's winning % outside of St. Louis (KC).
People push back on this and say it ignores context and you can't just use a blunt instrument to judge managers.
Cranny: "Oh well I'm not a professional manager so I cant' judge his in game tactics.
Then why did you defend him so fiercely?
Cranny: You're not a professional manager so you shouldn't be allowed to judge him either.
Can we judge GMs, POBO, players, politicians if we didn't do those jobs at the highest levels? Why does this forum even exist if we have to be a professional to comment on something (in this case Cardinals baseball)?

This is spot on. I've been in some of those "debates" over the past decade and the Matheny ball jugglers can really only point to regular season win %. I put debates in quotes as it was more of a schooling for the Crannys and ScotchMIrishs of the forum, not an actual conversation.

And let's be honest, they only love Matheny because of the Christian factor. Too biased for honesty.

That’s part of it, Poojols. Who you think played a leadership role in helping all his teammates deal with the Kile tragedy?

Oh I remember you mentioning this before. Implying he taught a young Pujols about death. lol

You’re really reaching here.

It was documented, Ecleme. A very difficult time for the players, coaches, and manager. Matheny was very helpful to a number of people.

When I think back, one of the biggest problems Matheny had was with Molina, whom he had mentored when he was a player. They got into it because Matheny wanted him to take a day off every now and then, and Molina wanted to play every day. Maybe that created his desire to improve his people skills as things became nasty and public.

You sound more ridiculous with each post.

I doubt that, Bad. What I’m talking about was public knowledge.

The poster who said he respected Matheny as a player and as a man was the closest to being accurate.
Did he have his shortcomings as a manager? Sure. He was put into a position he wasn’t trained or prepared for. He tried hard to integrate analytics into managing based upon his playing experience and fell short.
It was his demise.

Well at least we can agree that even back in 2012, Mo was making bad decisions.

Some bad, some good, sdaltons. Just like almost every other GM or POBO>

Not one single other name in either of those categories ran their team for 18 years. And that includes people who had far more success than Mo achieved over a decade ago.

You're right. BDW Jr. is a very loyal employer. He's not the type to cut people off at the knees if they don't perform.

Bomber1 wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025 15:07 pm

Cranny wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025 13:08 pm

sdaltons wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025 12:51 pm

Cranny wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025 12:06 pm

sdaltons wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025 09:11 am

Cranny wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025 07:35 am

Bad14 wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025 07:26 am

Cranny wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025 07:16 am

ecleme22 wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025 07:05 am

Cranny wrote: ↑19 Aug 2025 22:43 pm

Poojols wrote: ↑19 Aug 2025 22:01 pm

rbirules wrote: ↑19 Aug 2025 08:55 am These are just recycled arguments of Cranny's from ~10 years ago. The threads always go the same way.

Somebody criticizes Matheny.
Cranny defends him and says he was good.
Person talks about why they think Matheny wasn't good.
Cranny brings up lack of MOTO bat in the last year's of Matheny's tenure.
People mention he was given a great roster to begin with (2012-2015).
Cranny evades this, or down plays Matheny's role in those teams not having more post season success.
Cranny brings up Matheny's Cardinals winning % and how it was higher than a few HOFs.
People mention that ignores context of not being there through a down cycle (as he was fired).
Cranny (conveniently) ignores Matheny's winning % outside of St. Louis (KC).
People push back on this and say it ignores context and you can't just use a blunt instrument to judge managers.
Cranny: "Oh well I'm not a professional manager so I cant' judge his in game tactics.
Then why did you defend him so fiercely?
Cranny: You're not a professional manager so you shouldn't be allowed to judge him either.
Can we judge GMs, POBO, players, politicians if we didn't do those jobs at the highest levels? Why does this forum even exist if we have to be a professional to comment on something (in this case Cardinals baseball)?

This is spot on. I've been in some of those "debates" over the past decade and the Matheny ball jugglers can really only point to regular season win %. I put debates in quotes as it was more of a schooling for the Crannys and ScotchMIrishs of the forum, not an actual conversation.

And let's be honest, they only love Matheny because of the Christian factor. Too biased for honesty.

That’s part of it, Poojols. Who you think played a leadership role in helping all his teammates deal with the Kile tragedy?

Oh I remember you mentioning this before. Implying he taught a young Pujols about death. lol

You’re really reaching here.

It was documented, Ecleme. A very difficult time for the players, coaches, and manager. Matheny was very helpful to a number of people.

When I think back, one of the biggest problems Matheny had was with Molina, whom he had mentored when he was a player. They got into it because Matheny wanted him to take a day off every now and then, and Molina wanted to play every day. Maybe that created his desire to improve his people skills as things became nasty and public.

You sound more ridiculous with each post.

I doubt that, Bad. What I’m talking about was public knowledge.

The poster who said he respected Matheny as a player and as a man was the closest to being accurate.
Did he have his shortcomings as a manager? Sure. He was put into a position he wasn’t trained or prepared for. He tried hard to integrate analytics into managing based upon his playing experience and fell short.
It was his demise.

Well at least we can agree that even back in 2012, Mo was making bad decisions.

Some bad, some good, sdaltons. Just like almost every other GM or POBO>

Not one single other name in either of those categories ran their team for 18 years. And that includes people who had far more success than Mo achieved over a decade ago.

You're right. BDW Jr. is a very loyal employer. He's not the type to cut people off at the knees if they don't perform.

What you actually meant Cranny was:

“Bill DeWitt Jr is a very loyal employer. He’s not the type to cut people off at the knees if they could implicate him in the HackGate fiasco.”

He didn’t mind cutting Walt off at the knees, one year after Jockety delivered the first WS win in 24 years.

ecleme22 wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025 16:31 pm Cranny: “you say MM made bad bullpen moves, but maybe all the other pitchers were feeling sick. You nor I know.”

ecleme22 wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025 16:31 pm Cranny: “you say MM made bad bullpen moves, but maybe all the other pitchers were feeling sick. You nor I know.”

Cranny wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025 16:51 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025 16:31 pm Cranny: “you say MM made bad bullpen moves, but maybe all the other pitchers were feeling sick. You nor I know.”

Ecleme - Do you know anyone in the Cardinals organization? Do you have any inside information?