For the Matheny haters

[Ozziesfan41]

Let's not forget Shelby 'in MM's doghouse' Miller was allowed to be on the WS roster too.

I remember game 6 of the 2013 WS. Wacha is getting rocked in the 4th. Who does Matheny bring in? Freakin starter Lance Lynn.

2015 NLDS: Garcia knocked around. Who does Matheny bring in in the 2nd inning? Starter Lance Lynn.

I have many other "wtf are you doing that" examples. I'm guessing Matheny thought Miller and Mujica's spots were NBD. Why? Because Matheny just had his 2-3 relievers he leaned on. All others were inconsequential filler.

You have deep seeded issues. And an unhealthy obsession of hate.
Literally not one thing you've posted constitutes proof Matheny was a bad manager.

Not one.

And your moronic take that Matheny should have played a blind player, is more than enough proof that your takes aren't even opinions. They are just stupid.

No one on Cards Talk has ever suggested something more ridiculous, more stupid, than claiming Matheny is bad because he didn't play a blind player more in Sept 2016.

That takes the cake as the most insane thing anyone has ever claimed.

I do appreciate you revealing yourself in this topic though.

Saves everyone time from taking anything you say seriously ever again

Pham 2015: .824 OPS
Pham in August, 2016: .843 OPS
Pham end of August, 2016: .813 OPS
Pham 2017: .931 OPS

You: "But he wus blind in da month of Septembu, 2016!"

Got it.

My opinion your opinion and their opinions don’t matter. But 30 teams including 2 who already fired him don’t think he should be a manager that should count for something. And on top of that when MM was hired in KC he said he worked on his people skills and on embracing analytics two things that contributed to his St. Louis firing you would think they would at least believe Matheny himself but they dont want to be wrong so bad they wont even believe him that’s hilarious

Are you recognizing his health issue?

He’s working at various executive coaching roles right now so if he’s working at that I don’t see why he wouldn’t take a managing job if offered

[Poojols]

These are just recycled arguments of Cranny's from ~10 years ago. The threads always go the same way.

Somebody criticizes Matheny.
Cranny defends him and says he was good.
Person talks about why they think Matheny wasn't good.
Cranny brings up lack of MOTO bat in the last year's of Matheny's tenure.
People mention he was given a great roster to begin with (2012-2015).
Cranny evades this, or down plays Matheny's role in those teams not having more post season success.
Cranny brings up Matheny's Cardinals winning % and how it was higher than a few HOFs.
People mention that ignores context of not being there through a down cycle (as he was fired).
Cranny (conveniently) ignores Matheny's winning % outside of St. Louis (KC).
People push back on this and say it ignores context and you can't just use a blunt instrument to judge managers.
Cranny: "Oh well I'm not a professional manager so I cant' judge his in game tactics.
Then why did you defend him so fiercely?
Cranny: You're not a professional manager so you shouldn't be allowed to judge him either.
Can we judge GMs, POBO, players, politicians if we didn't do those jobs at the highest levels? Why does this forum even exist if we have to be a professional to comment on something (in this case Cardinals baseball)?

This is spot on. I've been in some of those "debates" over the past decade and the Matheny ball jugglers can really only point to regular season win %. I put debates in quotes as it was more of a schooling for the Crannys and ScotchMIrishs of the forum, not an actual conversation.

And let's be honest, they only love Matheny because of the Christian factor. Too biased for honesty.

[Cranny]

These are just recycled arguments of Cranny's from ~10 years ago. The threads always go the same way.

Somebody criticizes Matheny.
Cranny defends him and says he was good.
Person talks about why they think Matheny wasn't good.
Cranny brings up lack of MOTO bat in the last year's of Matheny's tenure.
People mention he was given a great roster to begin with (2012-2015).
Cranny evades this, or down plays Matheny's role in those teams not having more post season success.
Cranny brings up Matheny's Cardinals winning % and how it was higher than a few HOFs.
People mention that ignores context of not being there through a down cycle (as he was fired).
Cranny (conveniently) ignores Matheny's winning % outside of St. Louis (KC).
People push back on this and say it ignores context and you can't just use a blunt instrument to judge managers.
Cranny: "Oh well I'm not a professional manager so I cant' judge his in game tactics.
Then why did you defend him so fiercely?
Cranny: You're not a professional manager so you shouldn't be allowed to judge him either.
Can we judge GMs, POBO, players, politicians if we didn't do those jobs at the highest levels? Why does this forum even exist if we have to be a professional to comment on something (in this case Cardinals baseball)?

This is spot on. I've been in some of those "debates" over the past decade and the Matheny ball jugglers can really only point to regular season win %. I put debates in quotes as it was more of a schooling for the Crannys and ScotchMIrishs of the forum, not an actual conversation.

And let's be honest, they only love Matheny because of the Christian factor. Too biased for honesty.

That’s part of it, Poojols. Who you think played a leadership role in helping all his teammates deal with the Kile tragedy?

[sdaltons]

If Marmol would just pray a bit more, we might not be in this predicament!

[Poojols]

These are just recycled arguments of Cranny's from ~10 years ago. The threads always go the same way.

Somebody criticizes Matheny.
Cranny defends him and says he was good.
Person talks about why they think Matheny wasn't good.
Cranny brings up lack of MOTO bat in the last year's of Matheny's tenure.
People mention he was given a great roster to begin with (2012-2015).
Cranny evades this, or down plays Matheny's role in those teams not having more post season success.
Cranny brings up Matheny's Cardinals winning % and how it was higher than a few HOFs.
People mention that ignores context of not being there through a down cycle (as he was fired).
Cranny (conveniently) ignores Matheny's winning % outside of St. Louis (KC).
People push back on this and say it ignores context and you can't just use a blunt instrument to judge managers.
Cranny: "Oh well I'm not a professional manager so I cant' judge his in game tactics.
Then why did you defend him so fiercely?
Cranny: You're not a professional manager so you shouldn't be allowed to judge him either.
Can we judge GMs, POBO, players, politicians if we didn't do those jobs at the highest levels? Why does this forum even exist if we have to be a professional to comment on something (in this case Cardinals baseball)?

This is spot on. I've been in some of those "debates" over the past decade and the Matheny ball jugglers can really only point to regular season win %. I put debates in quotes as it was more of a schooling for the Crannys and ScotchMIrishs of the forum, not an actual conversation.

And let's be honest, they only love Matheny because of the Christian factor. Too biased for honesty.

That’s part of it, Poojols. Who you think played a leadership role in helping all his teammates deal with the Kile tragedy?

Matheny was certainly important during that tragedy. No denying that. I was a big fan of Mike the player, just not when he was manager. I remember in 2012 thinking he would be a great fit, but saw more and more in game management issues as the years went by. He was too loyal to some undeserving players and too stubborn to adjust.

[WLTFE]

If Marmol would just pray a bit more, we might not be in this predicament!

.....

[ecleme22]

These are just recycled arguments of Cranny's from ~10 years ago. The threads always go the same way.

Somebody criticizes Matheny.
Cranny defends him and says he was good.
Person talks about why they think Matheny wasn't good.
Cranny brings up lack of MOTO bat in the last year's of Matheny's tenure.
People mention he was given a great roster to begin with (2012-2015).
Cranny evades this, or down plays Matheny's role in those teams not having more post season success.
Cranny brings up Matheny's Cardinals winning % and how it was higher than a few HOFs.
People mention that ignores context of not being there through a down cycle (as he was fired).
Cranny (conveniently) ignores Matheny's winning % outside of St. Louis (KC).
People push back on this and say it ignores context and you can't just use a blunt instrument to judge managers.
Cranny: "Oh well I'm not a professional manager so I cant' judge his in game tactics.
Then why did you defend him so fiercely?
Cranny: You're not a professional manager so you shouldn't be allowed to judge him either.
Can we judge GMs, POBO, players, politicians if we didn't do those jobs at the highest levels? Why does this forum even exist if we have to be a professional to comment on something (in this case Cardinals baseball)?

This is spot on. I've been in some of those "debates" over the past decade and the Matheny ball jugglers can really only point to regular season win %. I put debates in quotes as it was more of a schooling for the Crannys and ScotchMIrishs of the forum, not an actual conversation.

And let's be honest, they only love Matheny because of the Christian factor. Too biased for honesty.

That’s part of it, Poojols. Who you think played a leadership role in helping all his teammates deal with the Kile tragedy?

Oh I remember you mentioning this before. Implying he taught a young Pujols about death. lol

You’re really reaching here.

[Cranny]

These are just recycled arguments of Cranny's from ~10 years ago. The threads always go the same way.

Somebody criticizes Matheny.
Cranny defends him and says he was good.
Person talks about why they think Matheny wasn't good.
Cranny brings up lack of MOTO bat in the last year's of Matheny's tenure.
People mention he was given a great roster to begin with (2012-2015).
Cranny evades this, or down plays Matheny's role in those teams not having more post season success.
Cranny brings up Matheny's Cardinals winning % and how it was higher than a few HOFs.
People mention that ignores context of not being there through a down cycle (as he was fired).
Cranny (conveniently) ignores Matheny's winning % outside of St. Louis (KC).
People push back on this and say it ignores context and you can't just use a blunt instrument to judge managers.
Cranny: "Oh well I'm not a professional manager so I cant' judge his in game tactics.
Then why did you defend him so fiercely?
Cranny: You're not a professional manager so you shouldn't be allowed to judge him either.
Can we judge GMs, POBO, players, politicians if we didn't do those jobs at the highest levels? Why does this forum even exist if we have to be a professional to comment on something (in this case Cardinals baseball)?

This is spot on. I've been in some of those "debates" over the past decade and the Matheny ball jugglers can really only point to regular season win %. I put debates in quotes as it was more of a schooling for the Crannys and ScotchMIrishs of the forum, not an actual conversation.

And let's be honest, they only love Matheny because of the Christian factor. Too biased for honesty.

That’s part of it, Poojols. Who you think played a leadership role in helping all his teammates deal with the Kile tragedy?

Oh I remember you mentioning this before. Implying he taught a young Pujols about death. lol

You’re really reaching here.

It was documented, Ecleme. A very difficult time for the players, coaches, and manager. Matheny was very helpful to a number of people.

When I think back, one of the biggest problems Matheny had was with Molina, whom he had mentored when he was a player. They got into it because Matheny wanted him to take a day off every now and then, and Molina wanted to play every day. Maybe that created his desire to improve his people skills as things became nasty and public.

[ecleme22]

These are just recycled arguments of Cranny's from ~10 years ago. The threads always go the same way.

Somebody criticizes Matheny.
Cranny defends him and says he was good.
Person talks about why they think Matheny wasn't good.
Cranny brings up lack of MOTO bat in the last year's of Matheny's tenure.
People mention he was given a great roster to begin with (2012-2015).
Cranny evades this, or down plays Matheny's role in those teams not having more post season success.
Cranny brings up Matheny's Cardinals winning % and how it was higher than a few HOFs.
People mention that ignores context of not being there through a down cycle (as he was fired).
Cranny (conveniently) ignores Matheny's winning % outside of St. Louis (KC).
People push back on this and say it ignores context and you can't just use a blunt instrument to judge managers.
Cranny: "Oh well I'm not a professional manager so I cant' judge his in game tactics.
Then why did you defend him so fiercely?
Cranny: You're not a professional manager so you shouldn't be allowed to judge him either.
Can we judge GMs, POBO, players, politicians if we didn't do those jobs at the highest levels? Why does this forum even exist if we have to be a professional to comment on something (in this case Cardinals baseball)?

This is spot on. I've been in some of those "debates" over the past decade and the Matheny ball jugglers can really only point to regular season win %. I put debates in quotes as it was more of a schooling for the Crannys and ScotchMIrishs of the forum, not an actual conversation.

And let's be honest, they only love Matheny because of the Christian factor. Too biased for honesty.

That’s part of it, Poojols. Who you think played a leadership role in helping all his teammates deal with the Kile tragedy?

Oh I remember you mentioning this before. Implying he taught a young Pujols about death. lol

You’re really reaching here.

It was documented, Ecleme. A very difficult time for the players, coaches, and manager. Matheny was very helpful to a number of people.

When I think back, one of the biggest problems Matheny had was with Molina, whom he had mentored when he was a player. They got into it because Matheny wanted him to take a day off every now and then, and Molina wanted to play every day. Maybe that created his desire to improve his people skills as things became nasty and public.

No, Matheny’s biggest problem was his lack of desire to grow as a manager and relate to those players different from himself.

The quote about Molina to the media was just stupid.

[Bad14]

These are just recycled arguments of Cranny's from ~10 years ago. The threads always go the same way.

Somebody criticizes Matheny.
Cranny defends him and says he was good.
Person talks about why they think Matheny wasn't good.
Cranny brings up lack of MOTO bat in the last year's of Matheny's tenure.
People mention he was given a great roster to begin with (2012-2015).
Cranny evades this, or down plays Matheny's role in those teams not having more post season success.
Cranny brings up Matheny's Cardinals winning % and how it was higher than a few HOFs.
People mention that ignores context of not being there through a down cycle (as he was fired).
Cranny (conveniently) ignores Matheny's winning % outside of St. Louis (KC).
People push back on this and say it ignores context and you can't just use a blunt instrument to judge managers.
Cranny: "Oh well I'm not a professional manager so I cant' judge his in game tactics.
Then why did you defend him so fiercely?
Cranny: You're not a professional manager so you shouldn't be allowed to judge him either.
Can we judge GMs, POBO, players, politicians if we didn't do those jobs at the highest levels? Why does this forum even exist if we have to be a professional to comment on something (in this case Cardinals baseball)?

This is spot on. I've been in some of those "debates" over the past decade and the Matheny ball jugglers can really only point to regular season win %. I put debates in quotes as it was more of a schooling for the Crannys and ScotchMIrishs of the forum, not an actual conversation.

And let's be honest, they only love Matheny because of the Christian factor. Too biased for honesty.

That’s part of it, Poojols. Who you think played a leadership role in helping all his teammates deal with the Kile tragedy?

Oh I remember you mentioning this before. Implying he taught a young Pujols about death. lol

You’re really reaching here.

It was documented, Ecleme. A very difficult time for the players, coaches, and manager. Matheny was very helpful to a number of people.

When I think back, one of the biggest problems Matheny had was with Molina, whom he had mentored when he was a player. They got into it because Matheny wanted him to take a day off every now and then, and Molina wanted to play every day. Maybe that created his desire to improve his people skills as things became nasty and public.

You sound more ridiculous with each post.

[sikeston bulldog2]

These are just recycled arguments of Cranny's from ~10 years ago. The threads always go the same way.

Somebody criticizes Matheny.
Cranny defends him and says he was good.
Person talks about why they think Matheny wasn't good.
Cranny brings up lack of MOTO bat in the last year's of Matheny's tenure.
People mention he was given a great roster to begin with (2012-2015).
Cranny evades this, or down plays Matheny's role in those teams not having more post season success.
Cranny brings up Matheny's Cardinals winning % and how it was higher than a few HOFs.
People mention that ignores context of not being there through a down cycle (as he was fired).
Cranny (conveniently) ignores Matheny's winning % outside of St. Louis (KC).
People push back on this and say it ignores context and you can't just use a blunt instrument to judge managers.
Cranny: "Oh well I'm not a professional manager so I cant' judge his in game tactics.
Then why did you defend him so fiercely?
Cranny: You're not a professional manager so you shouldn't be allowed to judge him either.
Can we judge GMs, POBO, players, politicians if we didn't do those jobs at the highest levels? Why does this forum even exist if we have to be a professional to comment on something (in this case Cardinals baseball)?

This is spot on. I've been in some of those "debates" over the past decade and the Matheny ball jugglers can really only point to regular season win %. I put debates in quotes as it was more of a schooling for the Crannys and ScotchMIrishs of the forum, not an actual conversation.

And let's be honest, they only love Matheny because of the Christian factor. Too biased for honesty.

That’s part of it, Poojols. Who you think played a leadership role in helping all his teammates deal with the Kile tragedy?

Oh I remember you mentioning this before. Implying he taught a young Pujols about death. lol

You’re really reaching here.

It was documented, Ecleme. A very difficult time for the players, coaches, and manager. Matheny was very helpful to a number of people.

When I think back, one of the biggest problems Matheny had was with Molina, whom he had mentored when he was a player. They got into it because Matheny wanted him to take a day off every now and then, and Molina wanted to play every day. Maybe that created his desire to improve his people skills as things became nasty and public.

You sound more ridiculous with each post.

Here I thought it was me.

[sikeston bulldog2]

These are just recycled arguments of Cranny's from ~10 years ago. The threads always go the same way.

Somebody criticizes Matheny.
Cranny defends him and says he was good.
Person talks about why they think Matheny wasn't good.
Cranny brings up lack of MOTO bat in the last year's of Matheny's tenure.
People mention he was given a great roster to begin with (2012-2015).
Cranny evades this, or down plays Matheny's role in those teams not having more post season success.
Cranny brings up Matheny's Cardinals winning % and how it was higher than a few HOFs.
People mention that ignores context of not being there through a down cycle (as he was fired).
Cranny (conveniently) ignores Matheny's winning % outside of St. Louis (KC).
People push back on this and say it ignores context and you can't just use a blunt instrument to judge managers.
Cranny: "Oh well I'm not a professional manager so I cant' judge his in game tactics.
Then why did you defend him so fiercely?
Cranny: You're not a professional manager so you shouldn't be allowed to judge him either.
Can we judge GMs, POBO, players, politicians if we didn't do those jobs at the highest levels? Why does this forum even exist if we have to be a professional to comment on something (in this case Cardinals baseball)?

This is spot on. I've been in some of those "debates" over the past decade and the Matheny ball jugglers can really only point to regular season win %. I put debates in quotes as it was more of a schooling for the Crannys and ScotchMIrishs of the forum, not an actual conversation.

And let's be honest, they only love Matheny because of the Christian factor. Too biased for honesty.

That’s part of it, Poojols. Who you think played a leadership role in helping all his teammates deal with the Kile tragedy?

Oh I remember you mentioning this before. Implying he taught a young Pujols about death. lol

You’re really reaching here.

It was documented, Ecleme. A very difficult time for the players, coaches, and manager. Matheny was very helpful to a number of people.

When I think back, one of the biggest problems Matheny had was with Molina, whom he had mentored when he was a player. They got into it because Matheny wanted him to take a day off every now and then, and Molina wanted to play every day. Maybe that created his desire to improve his people skills as things became nasty and public.

I’m not seeing it. MM was hard headed. His fight with Molina didn’t trigger any desires to get better. The fight continued. That change happened years later if at ll.

[ScotchMIrish]

These are just recycled arguments of Cranny's from ~10 years ago. The threads always go the same way.

Somebody criticizes Matheny.
Cranny defends him and says he was good.
Person talks about why they think Matheny wasn't good.
Cranny brings up lack of MOTO bat in the last year's of Matheny's tenure.
People mention he was given a great roster to begin with (2012-2015).
Cranny evades this, or down plays Matheny's role in those teams not having more post season success.
Cranny brings up Matheny's Cardinals winning % and how it was higher than a few HOFs.
People mention that ignores context of not being there through a down cycle (as he was fired).
Cranny (conveniently) ignores Matheny's winning % outside of St. Louis (KC).
People push back on this and say it ignores context and you can't just use a blunt instrument to judge managers.
Cranny: "Oh well I'm not a professional manager so I cant' judge his in game tactics.
Then why did you defend him so fiercely?
Cranny: You're not a professional manager so you shouldn't be allowed to judge him either.
Can we judge GMs, POBO, players, politicians if we didn't do those jobs at the highest levels? Why does this forum even exist if we have to be a professional to comment on something (in this case Cardinals baseball)?

This is spot on. I've been in some of those "debates" over the past decade and the Matheny ball jugglers can really only point to regular season win %. I put debates in quotes as it was more of a schooling for the Crannys and ScotchMIrishs of the forum, not an actual conversation.

And let's be honest, they only love Matheny because of the Christian factor. Too biased for honesty.

I think the Christian factor is why he took so much heat. Name the last manager since Matheny to win the NL without Pujols on the roster.

LaRussa's final 6 seasons with Pujols
2006 - 83
2007 - 78
2008 - 86
2009 - 91
2010 - 86
2011 - 90
________
514

Matheny's 6 seasons without Pujols
2012 - 88
2013 - 97
2014 - 90
2015 - 100
2016 - 86
2017 - 83
________
544

LaRussa's first 6 seasons without Pujols
1996 - 88
1997 - 73
1998 - 83
1999 - 75
2000 - 95
2001 - 93
________
507

6 seasons after Matheny
2019 - 91
covid 30-28 extrapolate to 162 = 84
2021 - 90
2022 - 93
2023 - 71
2024 - 83
________
512

[Cranny]

These are just recycled arguments of Cranny's from ~10 years ago. The threads always go the same way.

Somebody criticizes Matheny.
Cranny defends him and says he was good.
Person talks about why they think Matheny wasn't good.
Cranny brings up lack of MOTO bat in the last year's of Matheny's tenure.
People mention he was given a great roster to begin with (2012-2015).
Cranny evades this, or down plays Matheny's role in those teams not having more post season success.
Cranny brings up Matheny's Cardinals winning % and how it was higher than a few HOFs.
People mention that ignores context of not being there through a down cycle (as he was fired).
Cranny (conveniently) ignores Matheny's winning % outside of St. Louis (KC).
People push back on this and say it ignores context and you can't just use a blunt instrument to judge managers.
Cranny: "Oh well I'm not a professional manager so I cant' judge his in game tactics.
Then why did you defend him so fiercely?
Cranny: You're not a professional manager so you shouldn't be allowed to judge him either.
Can we judge GMs, POBO, players, politicians if we didn't do those jobs at the highest levels? Why does this forum even exist if we have to be a professional to comment on something (in this case Cardinals baseball)?

This is spot on. I've been in some of those "debates" over the past decade and the Matheny ball jugglers can really only point to regular season win %. I put debates in quotes as it was more of a schooling for the Crannys and ScotchMIrishs of the forum, not an actual conversation.

And let's be honest, they only love Matheny because of the Christian factor. Too biased for honesty.

That’s part of it, Poojols. Who you think played a leadership role in helping all his teammates deal with the Kile tragedy?

Oh I remember you mentioning this before. Implying he taught a young Pujols about death. lol

You’re really reaching here.

It was documented, Ecleme. A very difficult time for the players, coaches, and manager. Matheny was very helpful to a number of people.

When I think back, one of the biggest problems Matheny had was with Molina, whom he had mentored when he was a player. They got into it because Matheny wanted him to take a day off every now and then, and Molina wanted to play every day. Maybe that created his desire to improve his people skills as things became nasty and public.

You sound more ridiculous with each post.

I doubt that, Bad. What I’m talking about was public knowledge.

The poster who said he respected Matheny as a player and as a man was the closest to being accurate.
Did he have his shortcomings as a manager? Sure. He was put into a position he wasn’t trained or prepared for. He tried hard to integrate analytics into managing based upon his playing experience and fell short.
It was his demise.

[Cranny]

These are just recycled arguments of Cranny's from ~10 years ago. The threads always go the same way.

Somebody criticizes Matheny.
Cranny defends him and says he was good.
Person talks about why they think Matheny wasn't good.
Cranny brings up lack of MOTO bat in the last year's of Matheny's tenure.
People mention he was given a great roster to begin with (2012-2015).
Cranny evades this, or down plays Matheny's role in those teams not having more post season success.
Cranny brings up Matheny's Cardinals winning % and how it was higher than a few HOFs.
People mention that ignores context of not being there through a down cycle (as he was fired).
Cranny (conveniently) ignores Matheny's winning % outside of St. Louis (KC).
People push back on this and say it ignores context and you can't just use a blunt instrument to judge managers.
Cranny: "Oh well I'm not a professional manager so I cant' judge his in game tactics.
Then why did you defend him so fiercely?
Cranny: You're not a professional manager so you shouldn't be allowed to judge him either.
Can we judge GMs, POBO, players, politicians if we didn't do those jobs at the highest levels? Why does this forum even exist if we have to be a professional to comment on something (in this case Cardinals baseball)?

This is spot on. I've been in some of those "debates" over the past decade and the Matheny ball jugglers can really only point to regular season win %. I put debates in quotes as it was more of a schooling for the Crannys and ScotchMIrishs of the forum, not an actual conversation.

And let's be honest, they only love Matheny because of the Christian factor. Too biased for honesty.

I think the Christian factor is why he took so much heat. Name the last manager since Matheny to win the NL without Pujols on the roster.

LaRussa's final 6 seasons with Pujols
2006 - 83
2007 - 78
2008 - 86
2009 - 91
2010 - 86
2011 - 90
________
514

Matheny's 6 seasons without Pujols
2012 - 88
2013 - 97
2014 - 90
2015 - 100
2016 - 86
2017 - 83
________
544

LaRussa's first 6 seasons without Pujols
1996 - 88
1997 - 73
1998 - 83
1999 - 75
2000 - 95
2001 - 93
________
507

6 seasons after Matheny
2019 - 91
covid 30-28 extrapolate to 162 = 84
2021 - 90
2022 - 93
2023 - 71
2024 - 83
________
512

That factor you mention has always been a big factor on the Cardinals, among many Cardinal players. As it is on most major league teams.

[sdaltons]

These are just recycled arguments of Cranny's from ~10 years ago. The threads always go the same way.

Somebody criticizes Matheny.
Cranny defends him and says he was good.
Person talks about why they think Matheny wasn't good.
Cranny brings up lack of MOTO bat in the last year's of Matheny's tenure.
People mention he was given a great roster to begin with (2012-2015).
Cranny evades this, or down plays Matheny's role in those teams not having more post season success.
Cranny brings up Matheny's Cardinals winning % and how it was higher than a few HOFs.
People mention that ignores context of not being there through a down cycle (as he was fired).
Cranny (conveniently) ignores Matheny's winning % outside of St. Louis (KC).
People push back on this and say it ignores context and you can't just use a blunt instrument to judge managers.
Cranny: "Oh well I'm not a professional manager so I cant' judge his in game tactics.
Then why did you defend him so fiercely?
Cranny: You're not a professional manager so you shouldn't be allowed to judge him either.
Can we judge GMs, POBO, players, politicians if we didn't do those jobs at the highest levels? Why does this forum even exist if we have to be a professional to comment on something (in this case Cardinals baseball)?

This is spot on. I've been in some of those "debates" over the past decade and the Matheny ball jugglers can really only point to regular season win %. I put debates in quotes as it was more of a schooling for the Crannys and ScotchMIrishs of the forum, not an actual conversation.

And let's be honest, they only love Matheny because of the Christian factor. Too biased for honesty.

That’s part of it, Poojols. Who you think played a leadership role in helping all his teammates deal with the Kile tragedy?

Oh I remember you mentioning this before. Implying he taught a young Pujols about death. lol

You’re really reaching here.

It was documented, Ecleme. A very difficult time for the players, coaches, and manager. Matheny was very helpful to a number of people.

When I think back, one of the biggest problems Matheny had was with Molina, whom he had mentored when he was a player. They got into it because Matheny wanted him to take a day off every now and then, and Molina wanted to play every day. Maybe that created his desire to improve his people skills as things became nasty and public.

You sound more ridiculous with each post.

I doubt that, Bad. What I’m talking about was public knowledge.

The poster who said he respected Matheny as a player and as a man was the closest to being accurate.
Did he have his shortcomings as a manager? Sure. He was put into a position he wasn’t trained or prepared for. He tried hard to integrate analytics into managing based upon his playing experience and fell short.
It was his demise.

Well at least we can agree that even back in 2012, Mo was making bad decisions.