Going to WAR...for Classic0

[Quincy Varnish]

You understand the symphony of baseball, whereas others are reading a note on a page.
Of course the 2025 debacle of trying to force Herrera behind the plate, or continuing the quexottic foolishness of Mootbaar as a high value line-up fixture, or the wreckage of jamming Mikolas into the rotation is not something WAR ever reflect - nor its adherents ever grasp.
WAR is a fiction story filled with invisible friends.

Quixotic is the word you were shooting for?

Thank you.
Autofill on my phone
Should have spotted that.
Much like WAR.
Incorrect autofill.

You’re telling me your phone autofilled an imaginary word spelled “quexottic”?

Okay.

quix·ot·ic
/kwikˈsädik/
adjective
adjective: quixotic
exceedingly idealistic; unrealistic and impractical.

It’s another name for WAR
Quinc…..and you’re calling out everyone’s level of understanding

Dude…. you aren’t getting it, at all. Like anything.

Quinc….you might need some of BD homegrown….you ever just have a little fun….or always full blown attitude??

I am all the fun.

[An Old Friend]

still crickets from Melville. Awkward.

[Melville]

WAR is imperfect because it assigns an arbitrary number to each position on defense. It also fails to value correctly players who DH because they are poor fielders.

Herrera has a 1.2 WAR. Pages has a .2 WAR. Some would say catcher is the most valuable on defense of the position players but Herrera has a higher WAR despite the fact that he is a liability on defense. I would say Pages is more valuable because without him Herrera would be catching every game.


https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/STL/2025.shtml

Let's not forget that catcher is a weighted position.
Pages gets his 0.2 because he performs there.

You can only be judged on where you play.

Herrera gets a higher WAR because they can hide him at DH where his defense doesn't drive down his number. Numbers while hitting in the DH spot should not be calculated.

On the topic of the DH and more offense the flip side is without the DH Herrera would be playing defense and the other team's offense would benefit.

Herrera doesn't get a higher WAR because he can DH. He has to hit enough to overcome the massive positional adjustment for the DH (-17.5 runs) compared to catcher (+12.5 runs) over a full season. That's 30 runs or 3 WAR he loses if he hit exactly the same over a full season playing DH vs. playing catcher. Is his defense at catcher -30 runs bad? We don't know. For his career he has -10 DRS at catcher, in 721 innings (80 games) which is about half a season, if catcher's played all 162 games, which they don't. If you merely extrapolated his defensive metrics across a full season he'd come out ahead as a catcher by 10 runs (+30 positional adjustment, -20 DRS), or 1 WAR.

Statcast defensive metrics have him at -3 runs over his career (80 games) so he'd be losing even more value at DH if you don't trust DRS.

Herrera's numbers while in the DH spot should absolutely be counted. He if played half a year at DH and half at catcher he'd get half the DH positional adjustment (-17.5/2 = -9 runs) and half the catcher positional adjustment (+12.5/2 = +6 runs) for a total positional adjustment of -3 runs (-2.5 to be exact).

Things that aid the other teams offense (stealing bases, advancing on passed balls, etc.) are factored into the catching defense portion of WAR.

DH receives a positional adjustment from what position? It appears all positions are assigned different # of RUNS?

It's not relative to a certain position. Each position gets a positional adjustment (scaled to a full season), and a player's season positional adjustment is a weighted average of all the positions they played and how often they played them.

Positional adjustments (all are per 162 defensive games):
Catcher: +12.5 runs
First Base: -12.5 runs
Second Base: +2.5 runs
Third Base: +2.5 runs
Shortstop: +7.5 runs
Left Field: -7.5 runs
Center Field: +2.5 runs
Right Field: -7.5 runs
Designated Hitter: -17.5 runs

So a DH who never takes the field costs his team -17.5 runs??!!??
Oh my.
You couldn't make up such nonsense if you tried.
WAR, of course, does exactly that.

Geesh, I'd have to think it's prorated dependent on how much you DH.
That's w/o looking up or reading about it, just a bit of common sense. You should try it some time.

WAR automatically assigns a -17.5 runs value to the DH spot over a full year.
Yep - WAR states a player who never puts on a glove will lose a team exactly 17.5 runs per season.
Not sure how exactly -17.5 runs are subjectively assigned, rather than 16, or 18, or 20.
Not sure how anyone who never plays defense can allow -17.5 runs.

[Melville]

still crickets from Melville. Awkward.

Sorry to keep you waiting, my old friend.
Unlike many here, I am not retired (though I am old enough to do so I suppose, I believe it is immoral to retire while one can still contribute to society at a high level).
I enjoy the competition of outperforming folks half my age - and enjoy even more how much I can teach (much like I do here).
Still have a few more years to put in before I move on to the next phase of life.
Which means, that while I am fully aware that many hang on my every word and am always willing to fulfill that need, sometimes folks simply need to be patient.
Sometimes hours.
Sometimes days.
Now, how can I help you?

[Goldfan]

WAR is imperfect because it assigns an arbitrary number to each position on defense. It also fails to value correctly players who DH because they are poor fielders.

Herrera has a 1.2 WAR. Pages has a .2 WAR. Some would say catcher is the most valuable on defense of the position players but Herrera has a higher WAR despite the fact that he is a liability on defense. I would say Pages is more valuable because without him Herrera would be catching every game.


https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/STL/2025.shtml

Let's not forget that catcher is a weighted position.
Pages gets his 0.2 because he performs there.

You can only be judged on where you play.

Herrera gets a higher WAR because they can hide him at DH where his defense doesn't drive down his number. Numbers while hitting in the DH spot should not be calculated.

On the topic of the DH and more offense the flip side is without the DH Herrera would be playing defense and the other team's offense would benefit.

Herrera doesn't get a higher WAR because he can DH. He has to hit enough to overcome the massive positional adjustment for the DH (-17.5 runs) compared to catcher (+12.5 runs) over a full season. That's 30 runs or 3 WAR he loses if he hit exactly the same over a full season playing DH vs. playing catcher. Is his defense at catcher -30 runs bad? We don't know. For his career he has -10 DRS at catcher, in 721 innings (80 games) which is about half a season, if catcher's played all 162 games, which they don't. If you merely extrapolated his defensive metrics across a full season he'd come out ahead as a catcher by 10 runs (+30 positional adjustment, -20 DRS), or 1 WAR.

Statcast defensive metrics have him at -3 runs over his career (80 games) so he'd be losing even more value at DH if you don't trust DRS.

Herrera's numbers while in the DH spot should absolutely be counted. He if played half a year at DH and half at catcher he'd get half the DH positional adjustment (-17.5/2 = -9 runs) and half the catcher positional adjustment (+12.5/2 = +6 runs) for a total positional adjustment of -3 runs (-2.5 to be exact).

Things that aid the other teams offense (stealing bases, advancing on passed balls, etc.) are factored into the catching defense portion of WAR.

DH receives a positional adjustment from what position? It appears all positions are assigned different # of RUNS?

It's not relative to a certain position. Each position gets a positional adjustment (scaled to a full season), and a player's season positional adjustment is a weighted average of all the positions they played and how often they played them.

Positional adjustments (all are per 162 defensive games):
Catcher: +12.5 runs
First Base: -12.5 runs
Second Base: +2.5 runs
Third Base: +2.5 runs
Shortstop: +7.5 runs
Left Field: -7.5 runs
Center Field: +2.5 runs
Right Field: -7.5 runs
Designated Hitter: -17.5 runs

So a DH who never takes the field costs his team -17.5 runs??!!??
Oh my.
You couldn't make up such nonsense if you tried.
WAR, of course, does exactly that.

Geesh, I'd have to think it's prorated dependent on how much you DH.
That's w/o looking up or reading about it, just a bit of common sense. You should try it some time.

WAR automatically assigns a -17.5 runs value to the DH spot over a full year.
Yep - WAR states a player he never puts on a glove will lose a team exactly 17.5 runs per season.
Not sure how exactly -17.5 runs is subjectively assigned, rather than 16, or 18, or 20.
Not sure how anyone who never plays defense can allow -17.5 runs.

Mel…..Mel….you’re just suppose to accept that these numbers mean something…..if you don’t you’re obviously too dumb to understand WAR

[An Old Friend]

still crickets from Melville. Awkward.

Sorry to keep you waiting, my old friend.
Unlike many here, I am not retired (though I am old enough to do so I suppose, I believe it is immoral to retire while one can still contribute to society at a high level).
I enjoy the competition of outperforming folks half my age - and enjoy even more how much I can teach (much like I do here).
Still have a few more years to put in before I move on to the next phase of life.
Which means, that while I am fully aware that many hang on my every word and am always willing to fulfill that need, sometimes folks simply need to be patient.
Sometimes hours.
Sometimes days.
Now, how can I help you?

Who are you taking?
Player A - 34 HR, 133 RBI, 104 Runs, 6 SB, 321 total bases in 151 games
Player B - 26 HR, 84 RBI, 97 Runs, 24 SB, 286 total bases in 162 games

[Melville]

WAR is imperfect because it assigns an arbitrary number to each position on defense. It also fails to value correctly players who DH because they are poor fielders.

Herrera has a 1.2 WAR. Pages has a .2 WAR. Some would say catcher is the most valuable on defense of the position players but Herrera has a higher WAR despite the fact that he is a liability on defense. I would say Pages is more valuable because without him Herrera would be catching every game.


https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/STL/2025.shtml

Let's not forget that catcher is a weighted position.
Pages gets his 0.2 because he performs there.

You can only be judged on where you play.

Herrera gets a higher WAR because they can hide him at DH where his defense doesn't drive down his number. Numbers while hitting in the DH spot should not be calculated.

On the topic of the DH and more offense the flip side is without the DH Herrera would be playing defense and the other team's offense would benefit.

Herrera doesn't get a higher WAR because he can DH. He has to hit enough to overcome the massive positional adjustment for the DH (-17.5 runs) compared to catcher (+12.5 runs) over a full season. That's 30 runs or 3 WAR he loses if he hit exactly the same over a full season playing DH vs. playing catcher. Is his defense at catcher -30 runs bad? We don't know. For his career he has -10 DRS at catcher, in 721 innings (80 games) which is about half a season, if catcher's played all 162 games, which they don't. If you merely extrapolated his defensive metrics across a full season he'd come out ahead as a catcher by 10 runs (+30 positional adjustment, -20 DRS), or 1 WAR.

Statcast defensive metrics have him at -3 runs over his career (80 games) so he'd be losing even more value at DH if you don't trust DRS.

Herrera's numbers while in the DH spot should absolutely be counted. He if played half a year at DH and half at catcher he'd get half the DH positional adjustment (-17.5/2 = -9 runs) and half the catcher positional adjustment (+12.5/2 = +6 runs) for a total positional adjustment of -3 runs (-2.5 to be exact).

Things that aid the other teams offense (stealing bases, advancing on passed balls, etc.) are factored into the catching defense portion of WAR.

DH receives a positional adjustment from what position? It appears all positions are assigned different # of RUNS?

It's not relative to a certain position. Each position gets a positional adjustment (scaled to a full season), and a player's season positional adjustment is a weighted average of all the positions they played and how often they played them.

Positional adjustments (all are per 162 defensive games):
Catcher: +12.5 runs
First Base: -12.5 runs
Second Base: +2.5 runs
Third Base: +2.5 runs
Shortstop: +7.5 runs
Left Field: -7.5 runs
Center Field: +2.5 runs
Right Field: -7.5 runs
Designated Hitter: -17.5 runs

So a DH who never takes the field costs his team -17.5 runs??!!??
Oh my.
You couldn't make up such nonsense if you tried.
WAR, of course, does exactly that.

Geesh, I'd have to think it's prorated dependent on how much you DH.
That's w/o looking up or reading about it, just a bit of common sense. You should try it some time.

WAR automatically assigns a -17.5 runs value to the DH spot over a full year.
Yep - WAR states a player who never puts on a glove will lose a team exactly 17.5 runs per season.
Not sure how exactly -17.5 runs are subjectively assigned, rather than 16, or 18, or 20.
Not sure how anyone who never plays defense can allow -17.5 runs.

Mel…..Mel….you’re just suppose to accept that these numbers mean something…..if you don’t you’re obviously too dumb to understand WAR

I understand perfectly.
An imaginary friend (let's call him a Designated Hitter), will lose exactly -17.5 runs defensively for his team, right in-line with what would be expected from another imaginary friend (let's call him a Replacement Level Designated Hitter) - which exactly 5 runs worse than if the imaginary friend DH was instead an imaginary friend First Basemen, despite the fact that the imaginary friend DH never makes a single play on defense.
Surely you can follow that, right?

[An Old Friend]

Designated hitters don’t lose runs. My gawd.

[ClassicO]

Designated hitters don’t lose runs. My gawd.

And they do nothing to prevent runs (another important aspect of the game). And the positional +/- is all about comparisons.
Is a LF as valuable overall as a SS - or DH?

[Melville]

still crickets from Melville. Awkward.

Sorry to keep you waiting, my old friend.
Unlike many here, I am not retired (though I am old enough to do so I suppose, I believe it is immoral to retire while one can still contribute to society at a high level).
I enjoy the competition of outperforming folks half my age - and enjoy even more how much I can teach (much like I do here).
Still have a few more years to put in before I move on to the next phase of life.
Which means, that while I am fully aware that many hang on my every word and am always willing to fulfill that need, sometimes folks simply need to be patient.
Sometimes hours.
Sometimes days.
Now, how can I help you?

Who are you taking?
Player A - 34 HR, 133 RBI, 104 Runs, 6 SB, 321 total bases in 151 games
Player B - 26 HR, 84 RBI, 97 Runs, 24 SB, 286 total bases in 162 games

That is easy.
What position does each play?
And at which of those 2 positions do I have a need on my roster?
What is the age of each?
How many years of control do I get from either one?
Are both FA's - or can I trade for one?
If the answers are exactly the same for both, I take A.
But if neither fit what my roster needs, I don't take either one.
Worth noting that WAR is of zero help with any of those questions.

[Melville]

Designated hitters don’t lose runs. My gawd.

WAR says they do.
They lose exactly 17.5 runs per year, it is claimed.

[Melville]

Designated hitters don’t lose runs. My gawd.

And they do nothing to prevent runs (another important aspect of the game). And the positional +/- is all about comparisons.
Is a LF as valuable overall as a SS - or DH?

I think most folks understand that would depend entirely on who, specifically, the LF or the SS or the DH is.

[ClassicO]

Designated hitters don’t lose runs. My gawd.

And they do nothing to prevent runs (another important aspect of the game). And the positional +/- is all about comparisons.
Is a LF as valuable overall as a SS - or DH?

I think most folks understand that would depend entirely on who, specifically, the LF or the SS or the DH is.

Don’t be so obtuse. Would you rather have a league average defensive, league average base runner as a left fielder or shortstop if they each have .800 OPS? It’s not complex, so keep it brief.

[Melville]

Designated hitters don’t lose runs. My gawd.

And they do nothing to prevent runs (another important aspect of the game). And the positional +/- is all about comparisons.
Is a LF as valuable overall as a SS - or DH?

I think most folks understand that would depend entirely on who, specifically, the LF or the SS or the DH is.

Don’t be so obtuse. Would you rather have a league average defensive, league average base runner as a left fielder or shortstop if they each have .800 OPS? It’s not complex, so keep it brief.

Depends on who I have at each of those spots currently.
Right now, if I was in charge of the Cardinals, I would pick the LF because I have Winn at SS and a revolving door at both corner outfield spots.
On the other hand, if I were running a team and needed to fill both spots, I would pick the SS.

[An Old Friend]

still crickets from Melville. Awkward.

Sorry to keep you waiting, my old friend.
Unlike many here, I am not retired (though I am old enough to do so I suppose, I believe it is immoral to retire while one can still contribute to society at a high level).
I enjoy the competition of outperforming folks half my age - and enjoy even more how much I can teach (much like I do here).
Still have a few more years to put in before I move on to the next phase of life.
Which means, that while I am fully aware that many hang on my every word and am always willing to fulfill that need, sometimes folks simply need to be patient.
Sometimes hours.
Sometimes days.
Now, how can I help you?

Who are you taking?
Player A - 34 HR, 133 RBI, 104 Runs, 6 SB, 321 total bases in 151 games
Player B - 26 HR, 84 RBI, 97 Runs, 24 SB, 286 total bases in 162 games

That is easy.
What position does each play?
And at which of those 2 positions do I have a need on my roster?
What is the age of each?
How many years of control do I get from either one?
Are both FA's - or can I trade for one?
If the answers are exactly the same for both, I take A.
But if neither fit what my roster needs, I don't take either one.
Worth noting that WAR is of zero help with any of those questions.

So you changed your answer from before.

They’re both outfielders.

I have you down for A.

Player A is 1999 Dante Bichette, -2.3 bWAR
Player B is 1999 Andruw Jones, 7.1 bWAR

So you both took a player who was nearly 9 WAR less valuable.

Thank you for playing.

[Quincy Varnish]

Mel…..Mel….you’re just suppose to accept that these numbers mean something…..if you don’t you’re obviously too dumb to understand WAR

I understand perfectly.
An imaginary friend (let's call him a Designated Hitter), will lose exactly -17.5 runs defensively for his team, right in-line with what would be expected from another imaginary friend (let's call him a Replacement Level Designated Hitter) - which exactly 5 runs worse than if the imaginary friend DH was instead an imaginary friend First Basemen, despite the fact that the imaginary friend DH never makes a single play on defense.
Surely you can follow that, right?

Goldfan might be on to something.

The adjustment for DH is to account for the lack of defense contribution.