STLtoday.com

hugeCardfan wrote: ↑03 Apr 2025 15:22 pm

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑16 Mar 2025 06:10 am I'm disappointed because, whether by choice or by circumstance, they still seem to be on this "middle road" between really competing (which the roster is really in no shape to this year anyway) and being committed to doing a thorough rebuild. Only this year they've edged somewhat closer to the rebuilding side of the "middle road." They are in 70 to 85 win purgatory with no clear path to get out of it other than waiting for Arenado's, Gray's, Contreras', etc. contracts to expire.

3 weeks later and 6 games down the road. Do you still feel that the roster is in no shape to compete? What is the urgency to jettison Arenado's, Gray's and Contreras' contract?

As we wait for McGreevy, Mathews, Roby, Hence, Hjerpe etc to matriculate, what is wrong with Gray, Helsley and Fedde holding down the fort? Why not compete this year?

1_12_1968 wrote: ↑03 Apr 2025 15:57 pm

hugeCardfan wrote: ↑30 Mar 2025 14:13 pm These guys may be a whole lot better than the boo birds think.

Paying for past performance after 30 is a fools errand. This may not be our year, but our younger core seems like a step in the right direction.

hugeCardfan wrote: ↑03 Apr 2025 15:03 pm

Youboughtit wrote: ↑15 Mar 2025 19:41 pm

hugeCardfan wrote: ↑15 Mar 2025 18:14 pm

Youboughtit wrote: ↑15 Mar 2025 18:05 pm

hugeCardfan wrote: ↑15 Mar 2025 17:54 pm We enter the season with question marks but not without hope. I’m comfortable with the rotation and having Mathews, Hence and Roby knocking on the door. I like the talent in the pen and believe Maton was a good add. I fully endorse the decision to keep Helsley to close and play to win. Throughout ST we have tended to walk fewer hitters than our opponents and that speaks well for our pitching as well as our hitters’ patience.

Sure the position players need to play better than last year but I have no reason to think they won’t. The look we are getting of Gorman, Scott II and Herrera is encouraging. I don’t worry about Winn or Noot. Willson will be solid at first. Looking for more from Burleson and Donovan and a spark from Walker. I think Koperniak is ready to step up and make the outfield solid at 4 levels.

Can’t wait to see how fast Davis and JJ move thru the minors. Can’t wait to see who we pick at #5 in the draft. Get a little momentum going in ‘25 and maybe Chaim comes thru in next winter’s FA market.

Listen to the naysayers if you want, this could be an encouraging year.

New too. Perfect situation for failure to force owner to spend. 60-70 wins and -2m fans will show he needs a $180-$200m payroll team with superstars to get back to the winning tradition. Nothing else will work. Has to be a disaster.

Plenty of room for Eeyores. Much rides on health and player development. I’m not against counting on a little luck, even some Cardinal pixie dust, but I don’t believe 90-100 losses for a second. Won’t happen.

Have you seen the youth? Going young with the 23rd ranked farm last year is a recipe for disaster. Teams go young when they have the Orioles type talent in the farm. You must see something no one else does.

Still denigrating the young players? Seems there is more than just a little hope for Herrera, Walker, Scott II, Gorman, Pages, Baker, etc...on top of Winn, Donovan and Nootbar.

hugeCardfan wrote: ↑03 Apr 2025 20:30 pm

1_12_1968 wrote: ↑03 Apr 2025 15:57 pm

hugeCardfan wrote: ↑30 Mar 2025 14:13 pm These guys may be a whole lot better than the boo birds think.

Paying for past performance after 30 is a fools errand. This may not be our year, but our younger core seems like a step in the right direction.

I agree. That's how I felt when we were bidding to keep AP. The sadness I felt at the time, wasn't how much he would cost but how much he would fall in his second ten years. He would have been a great 3 year deal even if he couldn't play to the level we would pay him simply because he was a Cardinal icon. But, older players are a cr@pshoot and it isn't a good bet to take them on. It was far more fun to sign him as a free agent in the 14th round and discover gold. Of course, it happens almost never, but, when it does.....

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑15 Mar 2025 18:17 pm The cardinals are a pretty badly built team. They need the hitting to be great the starters to be great and the bullpen to be lockdown in order to win 90. It’s not going to happen. They will be a if just about everything goes right like last season they will win a mediocre 80-83 games. If a few things go wrong it’s going to will be a disaster. It’s a reset but a weird reset where they aren’t trying to win or rebuild they are just coasting to mediocrity

Youboughtit wrote: ↑03 Apr 2025 21:27 pm

hugeCardfan wrote: ↑03 Apr 2025 15:03 pm

Youboughtit wrote: ↑15 Mar 2025 19:41 pm

hugeCardfan wrote: ↑15 Mar 2025 18:14 pm

Youboughtit wrote: ↑15 Mar 2025 18:05 pm

hugeCardfan wrote: ↑15 Mar 2025 17:54 pm We enter the season with question marks but not without hope. I’m comfortable with the rotation and having Mathews, Hence and Roby knocking on the door. I like the talent in the pen and believe Maton was a good add. I fully endorse the decision to keep Helsley to close and play to win. Throughout ST we have tended to walk fewer hitters than our opponents and that speaks well for our pitching as well as our hitters’ patience.

Sure the position players need to play better than last year but I have no reason to think they won’t. The look we are getting of Gorman, Scott II and Herrera is encouraging. I don’t worry about Winn or Noot. Willson will be solid at first. Looking for more from Burleson and Donovan and a spark from Walker. I think Koperniak is ready to step up and make the outfield solid at 4 levels.

Can’t wait to see how fast Davis and JJ move thru the minors. Can’t wait to see who we pick at #5 in the draft. Get a little momentum going in ‘25 and maybe Chaim comes thru in next winter’s FA market.

Listen to the naysayers if you want, this could be an encouraging year.

New too. Perfect situation for failure to force owner to spend. 60-70 wins and -2m fans will show he needs a $180-$200m payroll team with superstars to get back to the winning tradition. Nothing else will work. Has to be a disaster.

Plenty of room for Eeyores. Much rides on health and player development. I’m not against counting on a little luck, even some Cardinal pixie dust, but I don’t believe 90-100 losses for a second. Won’t happen.

Have you seen the youth? Going young with the 23rd ranked farm last year is a recipe for disaster. Teams go young when they have the Orioles type talent in the farm. You must see something no one else does.

Still denigrating the young players? Seems there is more than just a little hope for Herrera, Walker, Scott II, Gorman, Pages, Baker, etc...on top of Winn, Donovan and Nootbar.

Good role players. Add a couple legit top 3 at their position and top 20 SP and they would be fine. Adding to the top with the 100m that will be cleared after this season by signing superstars is the key. Time will tell. Otherwise it’s a .500 team trying for the last WC at best and that will not fill the stadium. Top end superstars or a WS contender will.

ecleme22 wrote: ↑04 Apr 2025 07:31 am

hugeCardfan wrote: ↑03 Apr 2025 20:30 pm

1_12_1968 wrote: ↑03 Apr 2025 15:57 pm

hugeCardfan wrote: ↑30 Mar 2025 14:13 pm These guys may be a whole lot better than the boo birds think.

Paying for past performance after 30 is a fools errand. This may not be our year, but our younger core seems like a step in the right direction.

I agree. That's how I felt when we were bidding to keep AP. The sadness I felt at the time, wasn't how much he would cost but how much he would fall in his second ten years. He would have been a great 3 year deal even if he couldn't play to the level we would pay him simply because he was a Cardinal icon. But, older players are a cr@pshoot and it isn't a good bet to take them on. It was far more fun to sign him as a free agent in the 14th round and discover gold. Of course, it happens almost never, but, when it does.....

There is a term people throw around a lot: Players aren't robots.

And in this case, I don't look at AP's output in LAA and say, "Oh wow, he would've done EXACTLY that in STL."

1. Pressure in new, bigger city.
2. Pressure of a HUGE contract at the time.
3. Pressure to perform and 'prove' himself.
4. Pressure to come back from injury.
5. Pressure to put a struggling franchise on his back.
6. Pressure to probably do too much...

Of course I don't think AP would've had a 1.000 OPS for 8 more seasons, but he probably would've had a softer landing like a Votto, Edmonds Beltran, etc.

hugeCardfan wrote: ↑04 Apr 2025 08:51 am

ecleme22 wrote: ↑04 Apr 2025 07:31 am

hugeCardfan wrote: ↑03 Apr 2025 20:30 pm

1_12_1968 wrote: ↑03 Apr 2025 15:57 pm

hugeCardfan wrote: ↑30 Mar 2025 14:13 pm These guys may be a whole lot better than the boo birds think.

Paying for past performance after 30 is a fools errand. This may not be our year, but our younger core seems like a step in the right direction.

I agree. That's how I felt when we were bidding to keep AP. The sadness I felt at the time, wasn't how much he would cost but how much he would fall in his second ten years. He would have been a great 3 year deal even if he couldn't play to the level we would pay him simply because he was a Cardinal icon. But, older players are a cr@pshoot and it isn't a good bet to take them on. It was far more fun to sign him as a free agent in the 14th round and discover gold. Of course, it happens almost never, but, when it does.....

There is a term people throw around a lot: Players aren't robots.

And in this case, I don't look at AP's output in LAA and say, "Oh wow, he would've done EXACTLY that in STL."

1. Pressure in new, bigger city.
2. Pressure of a HUGE contract at the time.
3. Pressure to perform and 'prove' himself.
4. Pressure to come back from injury.
5. Pressure to put a struggling franchise on his back.
6. Pressure to probably do too much...

Of course I don't think AP would've had a 1.000 OPS for 8 more seasons, but he probably would've had a softer landing like a Votto, Edmonds Beltran, etc.

Albert was the perfect example of warrior his first 11 years. He could strap a team on his back and the team could afford to build around him. FA changes that. Once the Morenos have a shot to swoop in and overpay, the dynamics are irreversible. A more pragmatic AP might have lapped up DeWitt’s 5 year 150M. But he wanted the most money and time to build his HOF numbers. Not blaming him, he just no longer fit snugly into a Cardinal scenario.

hugeCardfan wrote: ↑04 Apr 2025 08:33 am

Youboughtit wrote: ↑03 Apr 2025 21:27 pm

hugeCardfan wrote: ↑03 Apr 2025 15:03 pm

Youboughtit wrote: ↑15 Mar 2025 19:41 pm

hugeCardfan wrote: ↑15 Mar 2025 18:14 pm

Youboughtit wrote: ↑15 Mar 2025 18:05 pm

hugeCardfan wrote: ↑15 Mar 2025 17:54 pm We enter the season with question marks but not without hope. I’m comfortable with the rotation and having Mathews, Hence and Roby knocking on the door. I like the talent in the pen and believe Maton was a good add. I fully endorse the decision to keep Helsley to close and play to win. Throughout ST we have tended to walk fewer hitters than our opponents and that speaks well for our pitching as well as our hitters’ patience.

Sure the position players need to play better than last year but I have no reason to think they won’t. The look we are getting of Gorman, Scott II and Herrera is encouraging. I don’t worry about Winn or Noot. Willson will be solid at first. Looking for more from Burleson and Donovan and a spark from Walker. I think Koperniak is ready to step up and make the outfield solid at 4 levels.

Can’t wait to see how fast Davis and JJ move thru the minors. Can’t wait to see who we pick at #5 in the draft. Get a little momentum going in ‘25 and maybe Chaim comes thru in next winter’s FA market.

Listen to the naysayers if you want, this could be an encouraging year.

New too. Perfect situation for failure to force owner to spend. 60-70 wins and -2m fans will show he needs a $180-$200m payroll team with superstars to get back to the winning tradition. Nothing else will work. Has to be a disaster.

Plenty of room for Eeyores. Much rides on health and player development. I’m not against counting on a little luck, even some Cardinal pixie dust, but I don’t believe 90-100 losses for a second. Won’t happen.

Have you seen the youth? Going young with the 23rd ranked farm last year is a recipe for disaster. Teams go young when they have the Orioles type talent in the farm. You must see something no one else does.

Still denigrating the young players? Seems there is more than just a little hope for Herrera, Walker, Scott II, Gorman, Pages, Baker, etc...on top of Winn, Donovan and Nootbar.

Good role players. Add a couple legit top 3 at their position and top 20 SP and they would be fine. Adding to the top with the 100m that will be cleared after this season by signing superstars is the key. Time will tell. Otherwise it’s a .500 team trying for the last WC at best and that will not fill the stadium. Top end superstars or a WS contender will.

So you are still predicting a 60 to 70 win season and absolute disaster unless DeWitt quickly changes direction and spends 200M. Talk about whiplash.

I think you are mistaken on the situation and the direction the Cards will be taking, both immediate steps and down the road. I don’t think each of the players are destined to be just role players. I look forward to the snapping in of Davis, JJ, McGreevy and Mathews. A little Later Tink and Roby. Who they select with the #5 draft pick. How Chaim impacts their development.

There is no need for panic or overkill. We have good parts and the people in place to build a winner. Sorry you don’t see that yet.

11WSChamps wrote: ↑04 Apr 2025 13:30 pm The Pujols situation was soured because the team neglected Pujols while at the same time signing Holliday to a bigger deal.

Pujols saw that as a slight and I don't blame him.

The rest of what these FO boot lickers are saying is just [nonsense].

If they had taken care of Pujols first the outrageousness of the Angel money had never came about.

Cranny wrote: ↑04 Apr 2025 13:37 pm

11WSChamps wrote: ↑04 Apr 2025 13:30 pm The Pujols situation was soured because the team neglected Pujols while at the same time signing Holliday to a bigger deal.

Pujols saw that as a slight and I don't blame him.

The rest of what these FO boot lickers are saying is just [nonsense].

If they had taken care of Pujols first the outrageousness of the Angel money had never came about.

FO boot lickers? How nice. Maybe some posters are just a little more understanding of how complicated the industry is right now.

11WSChamps wrote: ↑04 Apr 2025 13:40 pm

Cranny wrote: ↑04 Apr 2025 13:37 pm

11WSChamps wrote: ↑04 Apr 2025 13:30 pm The Pujols situation was soured because the team neglected Pujols while at the same time signing Holliday to a bigger deal.

Pujols saw that as a slight and I don't blame him.

The rest of what these FO boot lickers are saying is just [nonsense].

If they had taken care of Pujols first the outrageousness of the Angel money had never came about.

FO boot lickers? How nice. Maybe some posters are just a little more understanding of how complicated the industry is right now.

I'm talking about the Pujols situation that some of you usual suspects are gaslighting people on.

Cranny wrote: ↑04 Apr 2025 14:10 pm

11WSChamps wrote: ↑04 Apr 2025 13:40 pm

Cranny wrote: ↑04 Apr 2025 13:37 pm

11WSChamps wrote: ↑04 Apr 2025 13:30 pm The Pujols situation was soured because the team neglected Pujols while at the same time signing Holliday to a bigger deal.

Pujols saw that as a slight and I don't blame him.

The rest of what these FO boot lickers are saying is just [nonsense].

If they had taken care of Pujols first the outrageousness of the Angel money had never came about.

FO boot lickers? How nice. Maybe some posters are just a little more understanding of how complicated the industry is right now.

I'm talking about the Pujols situation that some of you usual suspects are gaslighting people on.

Pujols was offered a 5 year contract so he could be a free agent again. His wife was insulted. The Cards went to a 10 year contract that was way above where they wanted to go. The Angels bypassed the agent, went right to Albert, and blew his doors off with a larger 10 year contract followed by a 10 year personals services contract.

11WSChamps wrote: ↑04 Apr 2025 14:16 pm

Cranny wrote: ↑04 Apr 2025 14:10 pm

11WSChamps wrote: ↑04 Apr 2025 13:40 pm

Cranny wrote: ↑04 Apr 2025 13:37 pm

11WSChamps wrote: ↑04 Apr 2025 13:30 pm The Pujols situation was soured because the team neglected Pujols while at the same time signing Holliday to a bigger deal.

Pujols saw that as a slight and I don't blame him.

The rest of what these FO boot lickers are saying is just [nonsense].

If they had taken care of Pujols first the outrageousness of the Angel money had never came about.

FO boot lickers? How nice. Maybe some posters are just a little more understanding of how complicated the industry is right now.

I'm talking about the Pujols situation that some of you usual suspects are gaslighting people on.

Pujols was offered a 5 year contract so he could be a free agent again. His wife was insulted. The Cards went to a 10 year contract that was way above where they wanted to go. The Angels bypassed the agent, went right to Albert, and blew his doors off with a larger 10 year contract followed by a 10 year personals services contract.

After the Holliday deal.

That was the rift.