If it were a true re-build and not a salary dump

[renostl]

If it were a true re-build and not a salary dump, they would have replaced the manager and all the coaches and started with a totally different mindset on how to start over.

Not necessarily.

True in this case. But, But, But it might have helped.

Not necessarily.

A rebuild doesn’t require a change in coaches, or at least an immediate one…

It does in any other major professional sport.

Do you think they will at .500 at All Star break?

No, I don’t think they will be .500 at the ASB.
I don’t think a different manager would make them .500 either.
I don’t care if they fire Oliver or not. I have no attachment to him. But whoever you think is the best manager isn’t making this team 500.
Now, what happens if they are at .500 at the All-Star break? Will people then praise Marmol?

Now, what happens if they are at .500 at the All-Star break? Will people then praise Marmol?

Great last hypothetical .. The Marmol detractors could not bring themselves to praising Marmol for being .500 (or even a game or two above )
My guess would be these responses ... Sure, these two players (fill in blank ) had a hot first half , no way they keep playing like that .
Oli had nothing to do with the record. In fact , he lost a couple games that they should have won ( poster cites bullpen moves that backfired ).
Another.. There are still 40 games remaining.. Oli will have this team folding down the stretch.
This team is playing .500 ball despite poor managing .
Any others ? lol

Didn't it already happen in 2025 when the team was 47-39 through June?

[ScotchMIrish]

Two theories. Either Bloom thinks Mozeliak's "game planner" was handcuffing Marmol and preventing him from achieving his potential or Bloom wants Marmol to manage through the dump part of the rebuild and will fire Marmol when it looks like the team is ready to win.

[RichieRichSTL]

Disagree...and I am NOT an Oli fan!
I think he is a below average Manager and we can certainly do better.
Having said that....Bloom has a lot on his plate with roster construction which also includes building the farm system and preparing for the upcoming draft.
So far I’m optimistic about his approach and regardless of what we think on CT “outside” experts/opinions seem very positive as the System Rating has surged.
Of course time will tell.
Again...while I rate Oli low...a Manager can only do so much.
If the players perform and the decision making from the dugout is weak it’ll stick out like a sore thumb.
THEN I would expect change.
Patience.

Established players who have the option of playing for a more competitive team, would probably choose to do so in most cases. Why is that? They are likely to be surrounded by better talent and to have a chance to make postseason.

We want an established manager with a history of success or at least a candidate that is very promising, right?!

Just like players such a candidate would be looking for a situation in which they have a good opportunity to win in the short term. A manager that we might want might not be willing to take on a team whose traditional measures of success don't look promising yet. Fast forward a year or two. If it looks like talentwise that starting in 2028 we have a legitimate shot at competing, for example, an established manager who wouldn't be in demand, might be willing to take a chance. What is the point in hiring someone who is willing to take on the job now, if you will just replace him in a year or two with one who would really want?

I dont think Oli is a great manager, but I dont think he is 2025 Colorado Rockies/2024 White Sox bad either. His job is to field to oversee the development of young MLB talent first and foremost and field a marginally competitive team in the process. If he grows and excels at it, you consider keeping him into the next window. If not, you have hopefully bought time for the team to have enough major league talent to attract the type of manager you want.

When the Rams moved, they kept Jeff Fischer the first season. Not because they thought he was a long-term solution, but because the wanted a stable presence for the 1st post move season. He provided that, but did not show that he could take them to the next level.

Baring a Rockies/White Sox disaster Oli has a 1-2 year window to prove that he has learned enough to lead a team on the rise. If, like Fischer, he hasn't shown it by the team has reestablish themselves i have no doubt Bloom will make a major upgrade.

[RichieRichSTL]

Two theories. Either Bloom thinks Mozeliak's "game planner" was handcuffing Marmol and preventing him from achieving his potential or Bloom wants Marmol to manage through the dump part of the rebuild and will fire Marmol when it looks like the team is ready to win.

I think could be 1 and definitely if nothing changes 2 is the case. What established coach wants a no-win situation?

[Cusecards]

Disagree...and I am NOT an Oli fan!
I think he is a below average Manager and we can certainly do better.
Having said that....Bloom has a lot on his plate with roster construction which also includes building the farm system and preparing for the upcoming draft.
So far I’m optimistic about his approach and regardless of what we think on CT “outside” experts/opinions seem very positive as the System Rating has surged.
Of course time will tell.
Again...while I rate Oli low...a Manager can only do so much.
If the players perform and the decision making from the dugout is weak it’ll stick out like a sore thumb.
THEN I would expect change.
Patience.

Established players who have the option of playing for a more competitive team, would probably choose to do so in most cases. Why is that? They are likely to be surrounded by better talent and to have a chance to make postseason.

We want an established manager with a history of success or at least a candidate that is very promising, right?!

Just like players such a candidate would be looking for a situation in which they have a good opportunity to win in the short term. A manager that we might want might not be willing to take on a team whose traditional measures of success don't look promising yet. Fast forward a year or two. If it looks like talentwise that starting in 2028 we have a legitimate shot at competing, for example, an established manager who wouldn't be in demand, might be willing to take a chance. What is the point in hiring someone who is willing to take on the job now, if you will just replace him in a year or two with one who would really want?

I dont think Oli is a great manager, but I dont think he is 2025 Colorado Rockies/2024 White Sox bad either. His job is to field to oversee the development of young MLB talent first and foremost and field a marginally competitive team in the process. If he grows and excels at it, you consider keeping him into the next window. If not, you have hopefully bought time for the team to have enough major league talent to attract the type of manager you want.

When the Rams moved, they kept Jeff Fischer the first season. Not because they thought he was a long-term solution, but because the wanted a stable presence for the 1st post move season. He provided that, but did not show that he could take them to the next level.

Baring a Rockies/White Sox disaster Oli has a 1-2 year window to prove that he has learned enough to lead a team on the rise. If, like Fischer, he hasn't shown it by the team has reestablish themselves i have no doubt Bloom will make a major upgrade.

All possible scenarios.
Right now I’m more focused on the roster/players.
Agree that the Manager situation will be playing out over the next year or so.
Play ball

[ScotchMIrish]

Two theories. Either Bloom thinks Mozeliak's "game planner" was handcuffing Marmol and preventing him from achieving his potential or Bloom wants Marmol to manage through the dump part of the rebuild and will fire Marmol when it looks like the team is ready to win.

I think could be 1 and definitely if nothing changes 2 is the case. What established coach wants a no-win situation?

There are only 30 MLB managerial jobs and they all pay well.

[Cardinals1964]

If it were a true re-build and not a salary dump, they would have replaced the manager and all the coaches and started with a totally different mindset on how to start over.

Not necessarily.

True in this case. But, But, But it might have helped.

Not necessarily.

A rebuild doesn’t require a change in coaches, or at least an immediate one…

It does in any other major professional sport.

Do you think they will at .500 at All Star break?

No, I don’t think they will be .500 at the ASB.
I don’t think a different manager would make them .500 either.
I don’t care if they fire Oliver or not. I have no attachment to him. But whoever you think is the best manager isn’t making this team 500.
Now, what happens if they are at .500 at the All-Star break? Will people then praise Marmol?

Now, what happens if they are at .500 at the All-Star break? Will people then praise Marmol?

Great last hypothetical .. The Marmol detractors could not bring themselves to praising Marmol for being .500 (or even a game or two above )
My guess would be these responses ... Sure, these two players (fill in blank ) had a hot first half , no way they keep playing like that .
Oli had nothing to do with the record. In fact , he lost a couple games that they should have won ( poster cites bullpen moves that backfired ).
Another.. There are still 40 games remaining.. Oli will have this team folding down the stretch.
This team is playing .500 ball despite poor managing .
Any others ? lol

You wrapped it up pretty well.
Joe Torre sucked. Went to the Yankees and became a great manager.
Is it the players or the manager?
Who hear can say the Cardinals have great talent in place this year, but the manager made us lose.
We can turn that question around. Who thinks Marmol is great but has bad players?
Be realistic.

[AZ_Cardsfan]

There is an order to these things. One of which is do not hire the manager you expect to lead you to titles when you are at the bottom of the rebuild.

You hire that guy when most of the pieces are in place. And as mentioned the looming lockout is also a factor.

As to replacing all the coaches that is a big task. I suspect there is close oversight and specialists working with the day to day coaches to improve player development and those who can't figure out the new system will be gradually replaced.

This is a process. It started in 2024 (lamely) and is now in high gear making all the right moves. Hopefully it continues and we see a powerful team emerge on the other side.

[Absolut]

What’s LaRussa doing? He worked well in Chicago…

[Cardinals1964]

If it were a true re-build and not a salary dump, they would have replaced the manager and all the coaches and started with a totally different mindset on how to start over.

Not necessarily.

True in this case. But, But, But it might have helped.

Not necessarily.

A rebuild doesn’t require a change in coaches, or at least an immediate one…

It does in any other major professional sport.

Do you think they will at .500 at All Star break?

No, I don’t think they will be .500 at the ASB.
I don’t think a different manager would make them .500 either.
I don’t care if they fire Oliver or not. I have no attachment to him. But whoever you think is the best manager isn’t making this team 500.
Now, what happens if they are at .500 at the All-Star break? Will people then praise Marmol?

Now, what happens if they are at .500 at the All-Star break? Will people then praise Marmol?

Great last hypothetical .. The Marmol detractors could not bring themselves to praising Marmol for being .500 (or even a game or two above )
My guess would be these responses ... Sure, these two players (fill in blank ) had a hot first half , no way they keep playing like that .
Oli had nothing to do with the record. In fact , he lost a couple games that they should have won ( poster cites bullpen moves that backfired ).
Another.. There are still 40 games remaining.. Oli will have this team folding down the stretch.
This team is playing .500 ball despite poor managing .
Any others ? lol

Didn't it already happen in 2025 when the team was 47-39 through June?

Bam!!!

[Cardinals1964]

Two theories. Either Bloom thinks Mozeliak's "game planner" was handcuffing Marmol and preventing him from achieving his potential or Bloom wants Marmol to manage through the dump part of the rebuild and will fire Marmol when it looks like the team is ready to win.

I think could be 1 and definitely if nothing changes 2 is the case. What established coach wants a no-win situation?

There are only 30 MLB managerial jobs and they all pay well.

I’ll do it for 1/2 price.

[Cardinals1964]

There is an order to these things. One of which is do not hire the manager you expect to lead you to titles when you are at the bottom of the rebuild.

You hire that guy when most of the pieces are in place. And as mentioned the looming lockout is also a factor.

As to replacing all the coaches that is a big task. I suspect there is close oversight and specialists working with the day to day coaches to improve player development and those who can't figure out the new system will be gradually replaced.

This is a process. It started in 2024 (lamely) and is now in high gear making all the right moves. Hopefully it continues and we see a powerful team emerge on the other side.

Is there a precedence to your statement or is this your opinion?
Why is the lockout a factor? They don’t pay anybody during a lockout.