A "star" is not the answer

[zuck698]

Buying a Fa player for millions of dollars will not change this team. Some player who hits 30HR and drives in 90 RBIs while the team loses 90 games will not improve attendance. I want a team that will be a WS contender and not just a team that can compete for a Central Division Wild Card spot. That plan goes keeps you stuck in the middle.
Baseball is broken. The mid-market teams will rebuild every 3 to 5 years because the large markets will take their stars when they become FAs. Want an example, Winn. You can keep Winn, JJ and Doyle and add the missing pieces and compete for a couple of years. Then you can trade them at the five or six year point for a group of players that lets you rebuild over a couple years before repeating the process.
I don't understand why the 22 small or mid-market teams don't force a salary cap and floor and spread the money thru the league. The players still get paid, but it will be in Tampa or KC or STL and baseball leadership will determine the WS winner instead of just who spends the most money.

One reason they don't do this, is because all of those 22 teams that you mention, still make a ton of money. Daddy Bill can cry that baseball isn't profitable all he wants, but I can't remember the last baseball team to go belly up because they went broke. All the talk of "dry powder", "small market payroll", "prudent moves" , "time the payroll", etc.., over the years, has slowly absorbed into many fans thinking that Bill doesn't have the resources. They think Bill isn't making money on Cards baseball, but I will bet everything I have, that Bill makes plenty, regardless if 40K show up or if only 20K show up. The difference in that profit may exist, but make no mistake, it is still profit! Its like certain people watch certain news channels, and only hear one side of the story. Over time, they observe the story they hear all the time, to be the only truth. It isn't, there is usually 2 sides of every coin. That is why many here think that it is feasible to rebuild the organization and spend Bill's money to be competitive at the same time. We really can do both now, if the desire to do so was there. That being said, where we are currently, due to the many years of neglect to the minor leagues, poor coaching, bad signings and trades, it may be wise to wait a year before spending on free agents, due to the lack of readiness of our minor league support players. So I am ok with Bloom's or Dewitt's strategy for this year. Next year though, the built in reasoning of not spending towards fielding a roster that can compete, should be minimized, in my opinion. Unless people enjoy baseball teams that have absolutely no chance of winning for the next how many years?

[Cranny]

The Cardinals are going to need to grow their own superstars. They aren't going to pay big market type FA contracts, and
if they trade for a superstar from another team, they're going to need to include top prospects, which defeats their own purpose.

"Grow their own superstars" is not a plan.
It is a crapshoot with long odds.
Did LA "grow" the superstars?
No.
They bought every one of them.

Sorry, small to mid market teams can't pay huge super star contracts. And if the try it, they will have too many eggs in one basket.

[CorneliusWolfe]

Buying a Fa player for millions of dollars will not change this team. Some player who hits 30HR and drives in 90 RBIs while the team loses 90 games will not improve attendance. I want a team that will be a WS contender and not just a team that can compete for a Central Division Wild Card spot. That plan goes keeps you stuck in the middle.
Baseball is broken. The mid-market teams will rebuild every 3 to 5 years because the large markets will take their stars when they become FAs. Want an example, Winn. You can keep Winn, JJ and Doyle and add the missing pieces and compete for a couple of years. Then you can trade them at the five or six year point for a group of players that lets you rebuild over a couple years before repeating the process.
I don't understand why the 22 small or mid-market teams don't force a salary cap and floor and spread the money thru the league. The players still get paid, but it will be in Tampa or KC or STL and baseball leadership will determine the WS winner instead of just who spends the most money.

One reason they don't do this, is because all of those 22 teams that you mention, still make a ton of money. Daddy Bill can cry that baseball isn't profitable all he wants, but I can't remember the last baseball team to go belly up because they went broke. All the talk of "dry powder", "small market payroll", "prudent moves" , "time the payroll", etc.., over the years, has slowly absorbed into many fans thinking that Bill doesn't have the resources. They think Bill isn't making money on Cards baseball, but I will bet everything I have, that Bill makes plenty, regardless if 40K show up or if only 20K show up. The difference in that profit may exist, but make no mistake, it is still profit! Its like certain people watch certain news channels, and only hear one side of the story. Over time, they observe the story they hear all the time, to be the only truth. It isn't, there is usually 2 sides of every coin. That is why many here think that it is feasible to rebuild the organization and spend Bill's money to be competitive at the same time. We really can do both now, if the desire to do so was there. That being said, where we are currently, due to the many years of neglect to the minor leagues, poor coaching, bad signings and trades, it may be wise to wait a year before spending on free agents, due to the lack of readiness of our minor league support players. So I am ok with Bloom's or Dewitt's strategy for this year. Next year though, the built in reasoning of not spending towards fielding a roster that can compete, should be minimized, in my opinion. Unless people enjoy baseball teams that have absolutely no chance of winning for the next how many years?

A small difference in profit does exist, but is now being made up for in revenue sharing payouts. The ones dumb enough to buy this poor Bill narrative will never see things differently.

They can look at what he bought the team for and what it’s worth now and still buy the narrative.

[Melville]

The Cardinals are going to need to grow their own superstars. They aren't going to pay big market type FA contracts, and
if they trade for a superstar from another team, they're going to need to include top prospects, which defeats their own purpose.

"Grow their own superstars" is not a plan.
It is a crapshoot with long odds.
Did LA "grow" the superstars?
No.
They bought every one of them.

Sorry, small to mid market teams can't pay huge super star contracts. And if the try it, they will have too many eggs in one basket.

Sure they can.
STL was paying both N/A and Goldschmidt at the peak of their careers.
And the team was making money faster than they could count it.
The issue was Super Slo Mo's and The Marmot's utter stupidity and incompetence in managing the rest of the roster - starting with the lunacy of retaining Molina, Wainwright, and Pujols.
That was the TOXIC decision which collapsed the franchise.

[TheFantasyStud]

Okay Melvin,
I’ll buy in to your strategy. I know your not a Nootbaar fan but I think our lineup will meet you outline if Walker, Scott and Gorman begin to reach their potential. If they don’t we have Torres, Baez and free agency to replace them.

3 big bats
Herrera, Burleson and Walker
2 quality OBP bats in front
Nootbaar and Donavan
4 quality bats at the end
Winn, Wetherholt, Gorman, Scott II

Once Arenado is traded we just need a combo of two or three top of the rotation starters. Valdez, Suarez, Gallen, Szcherzer.

We are closer than people think and some of the markets might come down the closer we get to spring training.
I also think Bader would make a great 4th outfielder and potentially replace Nootbaar if we trade him mid season.

[mattmitchl44]

Once Arenado is traded we just need a combo of two or three top of the rotation starters. Valdez, Suarez, Gallen, Szcherzer.

"Just" need Valdez, Suarez, Gallen, etc.

[Cardinals4Life]

Buying a Fa player for millions of dollars will not change this team. Some player who hits 30HR and drives in 90 RBIs while the team loses 90 games will not improve attendance. I want a team that will be a WS contender and not just a team that can compete for a Central Division Wild Card spot. That plan goes keeps you stuck in the middle.
Baseball is broken. The mid-market teams will rebuild every 3 to 5 years because the large markets will take their stars when they become FAs. Want an example, Winn. You can keep Winn, JJ and Doyle and add the missing pieces and compete for a couple of years. Then you can trade them at the five or six year point for a group of players that lets you rebuild over a couple years before repeating the process.
I don't understand why the 22 small or mid-market teams don't force a salary cap and floor and spread the money thru the league. The players still get paid, but it will be in Tampa or KC or STL and baseball leadership will determine the WS winner instead of just who spends the most money.

We’ve been around .500 with none of the type of players you mention. Why would we lose 90 games with a couple of those type of players?

I do agree on the cap/floor thing though but it probably won’t happen.

Front offices like to say “it’s a business” in response to call for increased spending, but it works both ways. The players are businessmen too, and they’re the ones who are actually entertaining the audience, and they don’t want caps. Some owners don’t either. There already seems to be a majority opposition.

Great question, CW!

Now obviously after trading away Gray and Contreras, will put us further away from .500, but if they would've kept them, they ABSOLUTELY could've been competitive.

They could've added an ace, a big bat, plus the arrival of J.J. very well would have made them competitive.

They didn't have the will or the desire to do so, though. Easier just to save money and not try.

[CorneliusWolfe]

Buying a Fa player for millions of dollars will not change this team. Some player who hits 30HR and drives in 90 RBIs while the team loses 90 games will not improve attendance. I want a team that will be a WS contender and not just a team that can compete for a Central Division Wild Card spot. That plan goes keeps you stuck in the middle.
Baseball is broken. The mid-market teams will rebuild every 3 to 5 years because the large markets will take their stars when they become FAs. Want an example, Winn. You can keep Winn, JJ and Doyle and add the missing pieces and compete for a couple of years. Then you can trade them at the five or six year point for a group of players that lets you rebuild over a couple years before repeating the process.
I don't understand why the 22 small or mid-market teams don't force a salary cap and floor and spread the money thru the league. The players still get paid, but it will be in Tampa or KC or STL and baseball leadership will determine the WS winner instead of just who spends the most money.

We’ve been around .500 with none of the type of players you mention. Why would we lose 90 games with a couple of those type of players?

I do agree on the cap/floor thing though but it probably won’t happen.

Front offices like to say “it’s a business” in response to call for increased spending, but it works both ways. The players are businessmen too, and they’re the ones who are actually entertaining the audience, and they don’t want caps. Some owners don’t either. There already seems to be a majority opposition.

Great question, CW!

Now obviously after trading away Gray and Contreras, will put us further away from .500, but if they would've kept them, they ABSOLUTELY could've been competitive.

They could've added an ace, a big bat, plus the arrival of J.J. very well would have made them competitive.

They didn't have the will or the desire to do so, though. Easier just to save money and not try.

Yep. Easy playoff team, but I guess that doesn’t matter. We need to sit around and wait for an overnight miracle. Cheap [nonsense] is all it is.

[Cardinals4Life]

The Cardinals are going to need to grow their own superstars. They aren't going to pay big market type FA contracts, and
if they trade for a superstar from another team, they're going to need to include top prospects, which defeats their own purpose.

"Grow their own superstars" is not a plan.
It is a crapshoot with long odds.
Did LA "grow" the superstars?
No.
They bought every one of them.

Sorry, small to mid market teams can't pay huge super star contracts. And if the try it, they will have too many eggs in one basket.

Sure they can.
STL was paying both N/A and Goldschmidt at the peak of their careers.
And the team was making money faster than they could count it.
The issue was Super Slo Mo's and The Marmot's utter stupidity and incompetence in managing the rest of the roster - starting with the lunacy of retaining Molina, Wainwright, and Pujols.
That was the TOXIC decision which collapsed the franchise.

Agree. STL can easily afford a few superstar players. Easily.

Pujols wasn't a bad decision at all. Great final year for minimal $.
Yadi's multiple legacy contracts were ludicrous. Him and Waino, if brought back, should have been back on 1 year, minimal $ amounts, since they were no longer producing at the levels the Cards chose to play them at. No problem with them on the team, but the $ was a big waste.

[Cardinals4Life]

Once Arenado is traded we just need a combo of two or three top of the rotation starters. Valdez, Suarez, Gallen, Szcherzer.

"Just" need Valdez, Suarez, Gallen, etc.

That's why a rotation of Valdez, Gray, Liberatore, McGreevy, and May (or a traded for P) would have certainly been competitive. Now that we've shipped off Gray/Contreras we are even further away from being competitive.

[Melville]

The Cardinals are going to need to grow their own superstars. They aren't going to pay big market type FA contracts, and
if they trade for a superstar from another team, they're going to need to include top prospects, which defeats their own purpose.

"Grow their own superstars" is not a plan.
It is a crapshoot with long odds.
Did LA "grow" the superstars?
No.
They bought every one of them.

Sorry, small to mid market teams can't pay huge super star contracts. And if the try it, they will have too many eggs in one basket.

Sure they can.
STL was paying both N/A and Goldschmidt at the peak of their careers.
And the team was making money faster than they could count it.
The issue was Super Slo Mo's and The Marmot's utter stupidity and incompetence in managing the rest of the roster - starting with the lunacy of retaining Molina, Wainwright, and Pujols.
That was the TOXIC decision which collapsed the franchise.

Agree. STL can easily afford a few superstar players. Easily.

Pujols wasn't a bad decision at all. Great final year for minimal $.
Yadi's multiple legacy contracts were ludicrous. Him and Waino, if brought back, should have been back on 1 year, minimal $ amounts, since they were no longer producing at the levels the Cards chose to play them at. No problem with them on the team, but the $ was a big waste.

It wasn't just the dollars.
The playtime time - very valuable developmental opportunity - those3 took from younger, better players was inexcusable.
Ruined the franchise for several years.
And I was the only person on the planet who correctly predicted the inevitable disaster at the time.

[Cardinals4Life]

The Cardinals are going to need to grow their own superstars. They aren't going to pay big market type FA contracts, and
if they trade for a superstar from another team, they're going to need to include top prospects, which defeats their own purpose.

"Grow their own superstars" is not a plan.
It is a crapshoot with long odds.
Did LA "grow" the superstars?
No.
They bought every one of them.

Sorry, small to mid market teams can't pay huge super star contracts. And if the try it, they will have too many eggs in one basket.

Sure they can.
STL was paying both N/A and Goldschmidt at the peak of their careers.
And the team was making money faster than they could count it.
The issue was Super Slo Mo's and The Marmot's utter stupidity and incompetence in managing the rest of the roster - starting with the lunacy of retaining Molina, Wainwright, and Pujols.
That was the TOXIC decision which collapsed the franchise.

Agree. STL can easily afford a few superstar players. Easily.

Pujols wasn't a bad decision at all. Great final year for minimal $.
Yadi's multiple legacy contracts were ludicrous. Him and Waino, if brought back, should have been back on 1 year, minimal $ amounts, since they were no longer producing at the levels the Cards chose to play them at. No problem with them on the team, but the $ was a big waste.

It wasn't just the dollars.
The playtime time - very valuable developmental opportunity - those3 took from younger, better players was inexcusable.
Ruined the franchise for several years.
And I was the only person on the planet who correctly predicted the inevitable disaster at the time.

Who were they preventing from developing?

[Rojo Johnson]

The Cardinals are going to need to grow their own superstars. They aren't going to pay big market type FA contracts, and
if they trade for a superstar from another team, they're going to need to include top prospects, which defeats their own purpose.

Everyone knows that growing your own superstars is as easy as 1, 2, 3. I mean look at the OF. Why, we’ve grown a score of super stars in the OF over the last decade, right Cranley?

[Melville]

The Cardinals are going to need to grow their own superstars. They aren't going to pay big market type FA contracts, and
if they trade for a superstar from another team, they're going to need to include top prospects, which defeats their own purpose.

"Grow their own superstars" is not a plan.
It is a crapshoot with long odds.
Did LA "grow" the superstars?
No.
They bought every one of them.

Sorry, small to mid market teams can't pay huge super star contracts. And if the try it, they will have too many eggs in one basket.

Sure they can.
STL was paying both N/A and Goldschmidt at the peak of their careers.
And the team was making money faster than they could count it.
The issue was Super Slo Mo's and The Marmot's utter stupidity and incompetence in managing the rest of the roster - starting with the lunacy of retaining Molina, Wainwright, and Pujols.
That was the TOXIC decision which collapsed the franchise.

Agree. STL can easily afford a few superstar players. Easily.

Pujols wasn't a bad decision at all. Great final year for minimal $.
Yadi's multiple legacy contracts were ludicrous. Him and Waino, if brought back, should have been back on 1 year, minimal $ amounts, since they were no longer producing at the levels the Cards chose to play them at. No problem with them on the team, but the $ was a big waste.

It wasn't just the dollars.
The playtime time - very valuable developmental opportunity - those3 took from younger, better players was inexcusable.
Ruined the franchise for several years.
And I was the only person on the planet who correctly predicted the inevitable disaster at the time.

Who were they preventing from developing?

In 2022 Wainwright had the worst season in MLB history by a pitcher with 21 or more starts.
Every pitch he threw was a pitch denied to every other, younger pitcher on the 40 man.
Molina was, charitably, the 3rd best catcher and took playing time from younger, better options.
But, there were records to set and that is all Mo cared about.
Further, without those 2 on the roster, there would have been 2 more spots available to acquire and play even more young players.
Finally, 2022 told every coach, every player on the MLB roster, every prospect in the minors, every staff person in the entire organization that there was zero interest in winning, zero accountability for performance.
It was all theatre - merely going through the motions.
It poisoned every person associated with the organization - and the result has been devastating.

[ClassicO]

I DO NOT want to just make the playoffs. I want them to build a team that is a serious contender for the WS. Not some team that gets bounced out in the first round. They need much more than a "star" to be in that category.

Agree, but at some point when -- if -- they can build a solid core and find some international FAs, they'll have to spend for a star, IF they want to be a serious contender. This may be 2-4 years away if we're lucky.

[craviduce]

The Cardinals are going to need to grow their own superstars. They aren't going to pay big market type FA contracts, and
if they trade for a superstar from another team, they're going to need to include top prospects, which defeats their own purpose.

Everyone knows that growing your own superstars is as easy as 1, 2, 3. I mean look at the OF. Why, we’ve grown a score of super stars in the OF over the last decade, right Cranley?

I believe we'll have to go outside the organization for several bats. Outside of Wetherholt, we may be able to grow 2 stars. You can't count on every one of Padilla, Rodrigues, Baez, Mitchell, Bernal, Crooks, etc to become stars...I think 2 of them make it and become stars (become at least 3 WAR players). We'll trade from our Pitching depth in the minors. And we'll trying to sign a player or two each year.