STLtoday.com

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 07:21 am

CorneliusWolfe wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 07:12 am

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 07:03 am

CorneliusWolfe wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 06:49 am

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 06:15 am

BleedingBleu wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 06:07 am I don’t think that’s the case at all. The Cardinals made lots of bad decisions that lead to their current demise. It wasn’t because they were trying to keep up with the Jones, it’s because they were paralyzed to make the right move when they realized how far behind the right-ball their front office had become.

1.) Luhnow humiliated them.
Not only did they get caught “hacking” his database in Houston, but they arrogant outed themselves.

Then, Luhnow started winning and baseball became overly interested in what he had to say, like trimming down the farm. So, the Cardinals, who made their nut as a franchise because they basically invented the farm and at one point had THIRTY-THREE teams under their umbrella, followed that philosophy by cutting an entire level off.

2.) The Cardinals refused to offer mega contracts to the 26 Year Old Star Free Agents, instead choosing to… trade asset for older veterans.

So, rather than sign Bryce Harper at 26 (who eventually agreed to a $330M/13), they traded for 31 year old Paul Goldschmidt for $130M/5. Bryce Harper just now turned 33.

3.) They traded 2 OUTSTANDING COST CONTROLLED PITCHERS for a Left Fielder with a shoulder injury and the mental capacity of an 11 year old. Those two pitchers would be in constant discussion for Cy Young. Their LFer was known for a Strip Club brawl and one of the more hilarious blooper plays of all time.

4.) Rather than invest in star players, they overcompensated by overpaying on complimentary players like Dexter Fowler.

5.) They were so paralyzed by their ineptitude, they kept handing out extensions to their own players like Matt Carpenter, Miles Mikolas, Adam Wainwright, etc.

6.) Everyone was fleecing this Front Office because they were so inadequate that they not only couldn’t properly evaluate their own players in-house, but they couldn’t properly develop the ones they had. It became a running joke when players would go elsewhere and thrive.

7.) Choosing Rookie Managers over proven World Series pedigree

8.) Nerds w/access databases unable to evaluate nor develop their own players ousting proven veteran scouts and coaches in the minors

Being an “mid-market” team isn’t an excuse for having operational malfeasance in your front office.

None of that really has much to do with the point made in the OP.

But, sure, more than one thing can be true. The Cardinals have been, until Bloom, pursuing a poorly constructed philosophy AND doing it badly.

You have to be the most smug poster ever. Your OP is simply a false explanation of what you THINK those who disagree with your tired narrative thinks.

Newsflash…no one on this board knows [shirt] about running an MLB team. If we did, we’d be doing it. We’re are FANS, nothing more nothing less. Some more delusional than others.

Some want to spend on experienced and more talented players. Some desire only precious prospects. And guess what…some want a balanced mix of both. Why does that torment your soul?

It doesn't. At all. Why do you keep insisting that it does?

As I note above, and have noted every time this comes up, the Cardinals WILL NEED TO SPEND on expensive veterans - and spend more than a Milwaukee or Cleveland - to fill gaps on their roster. I keep having to repeat that over and over again, apparently.

The ONLY thing I reject is the mind-numbing petulance that they MUST SPEND TO THEIR LIMIT RIGHT NOW for 2026. 2026 is a moot point. It's dead, IMO. And that's OK.

The only way they can spend to their $170, $180, etc. million limit RIGHT NOW isn't by sensibly signing Dustin Mays to short 1 or 2 year deals. They can only spend to their $170, $180, etc. million limit RIGHT NOW by going out and chaining themselves to more really expensive veterans on longer term contracts. Right now, those are almost certainly NOT going to be wise investments for a team in no position to be competitive in 2026 (or probably 2027) anyway.

Why do keep telling the other half how they think? Your OP was not accurate at all, and you can definitely count me in as the other half.

Not only was it inaccurate, it intentionally paints a picture of stupidity and short sightedness that YOU think those of us who disagree possess.

There is a lot of room for independent thought in the vast space between your delusional perceptions and the mindset of the blind big spender crowd.

It is certainly what gets reflected every time CT is aghast at the idea that the Cardinals could ever think about modelling their approach on what Milwaukee, Cleveland, etc. do - but do it better by ultimately being able to spend somewhat more.

It is certainly what gets reflected every time CT insists that - even if the team is bad/mediocre - they MUST spend a lot on some "stars" anyway so fans have someone to come watch and jerseys to buy.

It is certainly what gets reflected every time CT insists that the Cardinals can follow the same systematic approach they did 20, 25, etc. years ago when the likes of the Dodgers were outspending them by $20 million instead of the $120+ million they can, and do, outspend them by today.

Etc. - It all fits.

Banner29 wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 07:33 am It doesn’t need to be either or. Every team in this league regardless of their money situation should be putting HEAVY emphasis on their player development. It should be the engine on any team.

Not every team though can be even “light” versions of the Dodgers, Phillies etc but the Cardinals can. They can still spend and combine the 2 into making a pretty solid franchise that puts out constant winning baseball and legit World Series aspirations.

I don’t know why people feel like they need to pick sides. And stick to it and curse the other point of view. That seems to be the trend these days for a lot of things. But I won’t get into that too much and risk the mods pooping their pants in anger

Jatalk wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 07:32 am Big market teams are spending more. That’s why I support not only a ceiling on spending but also a floor.

However that has absolutely nothing to do with the Cardinal issues. ITS POOR DECISIOM MAKING!!! Poor talent evaluation. Poor development. Poor spending habits. Poor revenue management, ie TV deal. Poor planning. Poor focus.

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 07:03 am

CorneliusWolfe wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 06:49 am

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 06:15 am

BleedingBleu wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 06:07 am I don’t think that’s the case at all. The Cardinals made lots of bad decisions that lead to their current demise. It wasn’t because they were trying to keep up with the Jones, it’s because they were paralyzed to make the right move when they realized how far behind the right-ball their front office had become.

1.) Luhnow humiliated them.
Not only did they get caught “hacking” his database in Houston, but they arrogant outed themselves.

Then, Luhnow started winning and baseball became overly interested in what he had to say, like trimming down the farm. So, the Cardinals, who made their nut as a franchise because they basically invented the farm and at one point had THIRTY-THREE teams under their umbrella, followed that philosophy by cutting an entire level off.

2.) The Cardinals refused to offer mega contracts to the 26 Year Old Star Free Agents, instead choosing to… trade asset for older veterans.

So, rather than sign Bryce Harper at 26 (who eventually agreed to a $330M/13), they traded for 31 year old Paul Goldschmidt for $130M/5. Bryce Harper just now turned 33.

3.) They traded 2 OUTSTANDING COST CONTROLLED PITCHERS for a Left Fielder with a shoulder injury and the mental capacity of an 11 year old. Those two pitchers would be in constant discussion for Cy Young. Their LFer was known for a Strip Club brawl and one of the more hilarious blooper plays of all time.

4.) Rather than invest in star players, they overcompensated by overpaying on complimentary players like Dexter Fowler.

5.) They were so paralyzed by their ineptitude, they kept handing out extensions to their own players like Matt Carpenter, Miles Mikolas, Adam Wainwright, etc.

6.) Everyone was fleecing this Front Office because they were so inadequate that they not only couldn’t properly evaluate their own players in-house, but they couldn’t properly develop the ones they had. It became a running joke when players would go elsewhere and thrive.

7.) Choosing Rookie Managers over proven World Series pedigree

8.) Nerds w/access databases unable to evaluate nor develop their own players ousting proven veteran scouts and coaches in the minors

Being an “mid-market” team isn’t an excuse for having operational malfeasance in your front office.

None of that really has much to do with the point made in the OP.

But, sure, more than one thing can be true. The Cardinals have been, until Bloom, pursuing a poorly constructed philosophy AND doing it badly.

You have to be the most smug poster ever. Your OP is simply a false explanation of what you THINK those who disagree with your tired narrative thinks.

Newsflash…no one on this board knows [shirt] about running an MLB team. If we did, we’d be doing it. We’re are FANS, nothing more nothing less. Some more delusional than others.

Some want to spend on experienced and more talented players. Some desire only precious prospects. And guess what…some want a balanced mix of both. Why does that torment your soul?

It doesn't. At all. Why do you keep insisting that it does?

As I note above, and have noted every time this comes up, the Cardinals WILL NEED TO SPEND on expensive veterans - and spend more than a Milwaukee or Cleveland - to fill gaps on their roster. I keep having to repeat that over and over again, apparently. It is literally right in the OP:

...a foundation of young, cost controlled players and less dependence on expensive veterans, but still able to spend more on such veterans than teams like Milwaukee.

The ONLY thing I reject is the mind-numbing petulance that they MUST SPEND TO THEIR LIMIT RIGHT NOW for 2026. 2026 is a moot point. It's dead, IMO. And that's OK.

The only way they can spend to their $170, $180, etc. million limit RIGHT NOW isn't by sensibly signing Dustin Mays to short 1 or 2 year deals. They can only spend to their $170, $180, etc. million limit RIGHT NOW by going out and chaining themselves to more really expensive veterans on longer term contracts. Right now, those are almost certainly NOT going to be wise investments for a team in no position to be competitive in 2026 (or probably 2027) anyway. There is no reason to take on another "Nolan Arenado" contract right now.

The issue isn't how much they are, or are not, spending in 2026. The issue is WHO they would have to commit themselves to for 3, 4, 5 years down the road in order to spend as much as you demand they spend right now.

CorneliusWolfe wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 07:41 am

Jatalk wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 07:32 am Big market teams are spending more. That’s why I support not only a ceiling on spending but also a floor.

However that has absolutely nothing to do with the Cardinal issues. ITS POOR DECISIOM MAKING!!! Poor talent evaluation. Poor development. Poor spending habits. Poor revenue management, ie TV deal. Poor planning. Poor focus.

Well stated. This teardown/rebuild would've been completely unnecessary with a just reasonable level of competence.

CorneliusWolfe wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 07:41 am

Jatalk wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 07:32 am Big market teams are spending more. That’s why I support not only a ceiling on spending but also a floor.

However that has absolutely nothing to do with the Cardinal issues. ITS POOR DECISIOM MAKING!!! Poor talent evaluation. Poor development. Poor spending habits. Poor revenue management, ie TV deal. Poor planning. Poor focus.

Well stated. This teardown/rebuild would've been completely unnecessary with a just reasonable level of competence.

CorneliusWolfe wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 07:41 am

Jatalk wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 07:32 am Big market teams are spending more. That’s why I support not only a ceiling on spending but also a floor.

However that has absolutely nothing to do with the Cardinal issues. ITS POOR DECISIOM MAKING!!! Poor talent evaluation. Poor development. Poor spending habits. Poor revenue management, ie TV deal. Poor planning. Poor focus.

Well stated. This teardown/rebuild would've been completely unnecessary with a just reasonable level of competence.

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 08:00 am

CorneliusWolfe wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 07:41 am

Jatalk wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 07:32 am Big market teams are spending more. That’s why I support not only a ceiling on spending but also a floor.

However that has absolutely nothing to do with the Cardinal issues. ITS POOR DECISIOM MAKING!!! Poor talent evaluation. Poor development. Poor spending habits. Poor revenue management, ie TV deal. Poor planning. Poor focus.

Well stated. This teardown/rebuild would've been completely unnecessary with a just reasonable level of competence.

Well, sure, IF the player development system had:

- Walker being a 4+ fWAR player going into his fourth ML season
- Gorman being a 3+ fWAR player going into this fifth ML season
- Liberatore being a #2 SP going into his fifth ML season

etc.

we probably wouldn't need to be talking about a comprehensive teardown/rebuild.

But none of those things are true. So we have to talk about a comprehensive teardown/rebuild (the process of gathering more prospects) so that the Cardinals organization can ultimately develop a 4+ fWAR player (Wetherholt?), a #2 SP (Doyle?), another 3+ fWAR player (?, some prospect they acquire by trade this offseason), etc. and then be able to compete.

They are where they are and have to do what they have to do because of it.

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 06:15 am

BleedingBleu wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 06:07 am I don’t think that’s the case at all. The Cardinals made lots of bad decisions that lead to their current demise. It wasn’t because they were trying to keep up with the Jones, it’s because they were paralyzed to make the right move when they realized how far behind the right-ball their front office had become.

1.) Luhnow humiliated them.
Not only did they get caught “hacking” his database in Houston, but they arrogant outed themselves.

Then, Luhnow started winning and baseball became overly interested in what he had to say, like trimming down the farm. So, the Cardinals, who made their nut as a franchise because they basically invented the farm and at one point had THIRTY-THREE teams under their umbrella, followed that philosophy by cutting an entire level off.

2.) The Cardinals refused to offer mega contracts to the 26 Year Old Star Free Agents, instead choosing to… trade asset for older veterans.

So, rather than sign Bryce Harper at 26 (who eventually agreed to a $330M/13), they traded for 31 year old Paul Goldschmidt for $130M/5. Bryce Harper just now turned 33.

3.) They traded 2 OUTSTANDING COST CONTROLLED PITCHERS for a Left Fielder with a shoulder injury and the mental capacity of an 11 year old. Those two pitchers would be in constant discussion for Cy Young. Their LFer was known for a Strip Club brawl and one of the more hilarious blooper plays of all time.

4.) Rather than invest in star players, they overcompensated by overpaying on complimentary players like Dexter Fowler.

5.) They were so paralyzed by their ineptitude, they kept handing out extensions to their own players like Matt Carpenter, Miles Mikolas, Adam Wainwright, etc.

6.) Everyone was fleecing this Front Office because they were so inadequate that they not only couldn’t properly evaluate their own players in-house, but they couldn’t properly develop the ones they had. It became a running joke when players would go elsewhere and thrive.

7.) Choosing Rookie Managers over proven World Series pedigree

8.) Nerds w/access databases unable to evaluate nor develop their own players ousting proven veteran scouts and coaches in the minors

Being an “mid-market” team isn’t an excuse for having operational malfeasance in your front office.

None of that really has much to do with the point made in the OP.

But, sure, more than one thing can be true. The Cardinals have been, until Bloom, pursuing a poorly constructed philosophy AND doing it badly.

3dender wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 08:04 am

CorneliusWolfe wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 07:41 am

Jatalk wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 07:32 am Big market teams are spending more. That’s why I support not only a ceiling on spending but also a floor.

However that has absolutely nothing to do with the Cardinal issues. ITS POOR DECISIOM MAKING!!! Poor talent evaluation. Poor development. Poor spending habits. Poor revenue management, ie TV deal. Poor planning. Poor focus.

Well stated. This teardown/rebuild would've been completely unnecessary with a just reasonable level of competence.

Back to the OP, the entire problem with trying to be a "light" version of the big spenders is that a mid market team has no room for ANY errors, let alone the multiple errors that Mo committed in his last decade. The big market teams can absorb those errors and just spend more money, but they are crippling for a team like the Cards.

That's why to be successful smaller markets have to build a team cheaply that can compete even without those big contracts, which is what TB, Cleveland, and lately Milwaukee have been able to do consistently.

Imagine Milwaukee or Cleveland in this year's playoffs if they had had Alonso at 1B or Bregman at 3B, or Blake Snell or Max Fried. All mattmitch is saying is that's what the Cards should aspire to be.

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 05:20 am Based on a lot of recent threads, there continues to be the CT philosophical divide which revolves around the notion that the Cardinals not only have to win, they have to win "the right way."

We know the Cardinals are a middle market team. They aren't the Dodgers, Yankees, Mets, etc. on one end. Nor are they the Rays, Pirates, As, etc. on the other.

CorneliusWolfe wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 08:11 am

3dender wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 08:04 am

CorneliusWolfe wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 07:41 am

Jatalk wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 07:32 am Big market teams are spending more. That’s why I support not only a ceiling on spending but also a floor.

However that has absolutely nothing to do with the Cardinal issues. ITS POOR DECISIOM MAKING!!! Poor talent evaluation. Poor development. Poor spending habits. Poor revenue management, ie TV deal. Poor planning. Poor focus.

Well stated. This teardown/rebuild would've been completely unnecessary with a just reasonable level of competence.

Back to the OP, the entire problem with trying to be a "light" version of the big spenders is that a mid market team has no room for ANY errors, let alone the multiple errors that Mo committed in his last decade. The big market teams can absorb those errors and just spend more money, but they are crippling for a team like the Cards.

That's why to be successful smaller markets have to build a team cheaply that can compete even without those big contracts, which is what TB, Cleveland, and lately Milwaukee have been able to do consistently.

Imagine Milwaukee or Cleveland in this year's playoffs if they had had Alonso at 1B or Bregman at 3B, or Blake Snell or Max Fried. All mattmitch is saying is that's what the Cards should aspire to be.

He says it every hour on the hour. Most of us don't want to be "light big spenders". We realize the pile of bad decision making has led to a period where the farm needed attention. I, and many others, reject the notion that no other moves should be considered in the name of tanking. When opportunity knocks, and if it does not entail mortgaging the future, then it should at least be considered.

I'd also add that the TB, Milwaukee, Cleveland model has netter zero world series titles, which is the primary justification those like him use for the teardown/rebuild. We need our own plan...not theirs.

What annoys me with this poster is his insistence on writing these narratives telling us how we think.

3dender wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 08:04 am

CorneliusWolfe wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 07:41 am

Jatalk wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 07:32 am Big market teams are spending more. That’s why I support not only a ceiling on spending but also a floor.

However that has absolutely nothing to do with the Cardinal issues. ITS POOR DECISIOM MAKING!!! Poor talent evaluation. Poor development. Poor spending habits. Poor revenue management, ie TV deal. Poor planning. Poor focus.

Well stated. This teardown/rebuild would've been completely unnecessary with a just reasonable level of competence.

Back to the OP, the entire problem with trying to be a "light" version of the big spenders is that a mid market team has no room for ANY errors, let alone the multiple errors that Mo committed in his last decade. The big market teams can absorb those errors and just spend more money, but they are crippling for a team like the Cards.

That's why to be successful smaller markets have to build a team cheaply that can compete even without those big contracts, which is what TB, Cleveland, and lately Milwaukee have been able to do consistently.

Imagine Milwaukee or Cleveland in this year's playoffs if they had had Alonso at 1B or Bregman at 3B, or Blake Snell or Max Fried. All mattmitch is saying is that's what the Cards should aspire to be.

Goldfan wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 08:21 am

CorneliusWolfe wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 08:11 am

3dender wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 08:04 am

CorneliusWolfe wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 07:41 am

Jatalk wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 07:32 am Big market teams are spending more. That’s why I support not only a ceiling on spending but also a floor.

However that has absolutely nothing to do with the Cardinal issues. ITS POOR DECISIOM MAKING!!! Poor talent evaluation. Poor development. Poor spending habits. Poor revenue management, ie TV deal. Poor planning. Poor focus.

Well stated. This teardown/rebuild would've been completely unnecessary with a just reasonable level of competence.

Back to the OP, the entire problem with trying to be a "light" version of the big spenders is that a mid market team has no room for ANY errors, let alone the multiple errors that Mo committed in his last decade. The big market teams can absorb those errors and just spend more money, but they are crippling for a team like the Cards.

That's why to be successful smaller markets have to build a team cheaply that can compete even without those big contracts, which is what TB, Cleveland, and lately Milwaukee have been able to do consistently.

Imagine Milwaukee or Cleveland in this year's playoffs if they had had Alonso at 1B or Bregman at 3B, or Blake Snell or Max Fried. All mattmitch is saying is that's what the Cards should aspire to be.

He says it every hour on the hour. Most of us don't want to be "light big spenders". We realize the pile of bad decision making has led to a period where the farm needed attention. I, and many others, reject the notion that no other moves should be considered in the name of tanking. When opportunity knocks, and if it does not entail mortgaging the future, then it should at least be considered.

I'd also add that the TB, Milwaukee, Cleveland model has netter zero world series titles, which is the primary justification those like him use for the teardown/rebuild. We need our own plan...not theirs.

What annoys me with this poster is his insistence on writing these narratives telling us how we think.

The Cleveland, TB model lives off of under 2mil attendance. Mil is well under the 3.2-3.5 attendance afforded to BDW for 25yr. Fine if you want to emulate their development model but completely disregarding the STL Revenue is asinine. If $$$ isn’t spent on ML payroll FANS WILL NOT RETURN

CorneliusWolfe wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 07:41 am

Jatalk wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 07:32 am Big market teams are spending more. That’s why I support not only a ceiling on spending but also a floor.

However that has absolutely nothing to do with the Cardinal issues. ITS POOR DECISIOM MAKING!!! Poor talent evaluation. Poor development. Poor spending habits. Poor revenue management, ie TV deal. Poor planning. Poor focus.

Well stated. This teardown/rebuild would've been completely unnecessary with a just reasonable level of competence.