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Carp4Cy wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 22:38 pm

renostl wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 22:31 pm

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 22:01 pm

Hoosier59 wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 21:57 pm I’ve been steadfast in my opinion on not trading Donovan. I still do not want him traded, however, Bernie makes some good points as why they should. The reality is that the Cardinals aren’t going to suddenly change their minds and go for it all in 2026. They just aren’t! As bad as some us want them to and think they should, they aren’t going to do so. Bill DeWitt is determined to cut payroll to Historic lows! He is not going to try and compete in the current conditions that exist in MLB! His heart isn’t in it to spend that much money. If, a big if, the collect bargaining agreement is changed to more align with Bill’s way of thinking, then he may consider to start trying to win again. If there aren’t enough changes to suit him, then I think he sells the team, at least his part.
Now, back to Brendan Donovan, if then, the Cardinals aren't going to try and win anytime soon, then, yes they need to trade him. I hate saying that, but it’s the truth. However, as Bernie states, Bloom has to receive a high return! Don’t settle for anything less!
There isn’t a such thing as a “ can’t miss prospect “ but Bloom needs to come as close as possible on this trade.
Time will tell!

That's why I'd much rather trade Donny for a known quantity than a "can't miss" prospect. Get the youngest future star who is already producing in MLB who can help us at a position of need NOW, AND be here for years. Like an Andy Pages.

The risk adjusted expected return of a young but proven MLB player is almost always going to bring us better value in a Donovan type trade than the risk adjusted expected return of a "can't miss" prospect.

There are guesses of the time-line as to when the Cardinals might be more competitive. The more proven players implies a player that is past rookie status. How much is gained in such a trade when Donovan may actually be able to play the position of that acquired player?
SP's with upside are premium, may need more than Donovan. C seems full, CF perhaps.
Not a challenge just trying to think it through to see what your idea looks like. Donovan isn't going to any team that isn't going for it. It almost has to be a redundancy player like Duran in Boston?

Good points. That's why I'm suggesting Pages - he can play CF and hit 27 HRs and he's only 24. And we have Zero good OFers. (Even Donny will never be a 4 WAR player playing only in LF - he doesn't have the bat for LF.) We have to acquire some from outside. But yes there's the issue that the Dodgers might never give him up, even for Donovan.

Alternatively we could trade Donny to a contender and acquire a player from another tanking team in a 3 way trade.

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 21:11 pm He made one mistake. He said Wetherholt's best position is second base. Wetherholt played 61 games at shortstop and only 20 at second base. He might play second base because shortstop is blocked but that's not his best position.

ramfandan wrote: ↑04 Dec 2025 09:05 am

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 22:38 pm

renostl wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 22:31 pm

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 22:01 pm

Hoosier59 wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 21:57 pm I’ve been steadfast in my opinion on not trading Donovan. I still do not want him traded, however, Bernie makes some good points as why they should. The reality is that the Cardinals aren’t going to suddenly change their minds and go for it all in 2026. They just aren’t! As bad as some us want them to and think they should, they aren’t going to do so. Bill DeWitt is determined to cut payroll to Historic lows! He is not going to try and compete in the current conditions that exist in MLB! His heart isn’t in it to spend that much money. If, a big if, the collect bargaining agreement is changed to more align with Bill’s way of thinking, then he may consider to start trying to win again. If there aren’t enough changes to suit him, then I think he sells the team, at least his part.
Now, back to Brendan Donovan, if then, the Cardinals aren't going to try and win anytime soon, then, yes they need to trade him. I hate saying that, but it’s the truth. However, as Bernie states, Bloom has to receive a high return! Don’t settle for anything less!
There isn’t a such thing as a “ can’t miss prospect “ but Bloom needs to come as close as possible on this trade.
Time will tell!

That's why I'd much rather trade Donny for a known quantity than a "can't miss" prospect. Get the youngest future star who is already producing in MLB who can help us at a position of need NOW, AND be here for years. Like an Andy Pages.

The risk adjusted expected return of a young but proven MLB player is almost always going to bring us better value in a Donovan type trade than the risk adjusted expected return of a "can't miss" prospect.

There are guesses of the time-line as to when the Cardinals might be more competitive. The more proven players implies a player that is past rookie status. How much is gained in such a trade when Donovan may actually be able to play the position of that acquired player?
SP's with upside are premium, may need more than Donovan. C seems full, CF perhaps.
Not a challenge just trying to think it through to see what your idea looks like. Donovan isn't going to any team that isn't going for it. It almost has to be a redundancy player like Duran in Boston?

Good points. That's why I'm suggesting Pages - he can play CF and hit 27 HRs and he's only 24. And we have Zero good OFers. (Even Donny will never be a 4 WAR player playing only in LF - he doesn't have the bat for LF.) We have to acquire some from outside. But yes there's the issue that the Dodgers might never give him up, even for Donovan.

Alternatively we could trade Donny to a contender and acquire a player from another tanking team in a 3 way trade.

Randy Karriker on ST Central podcast the other day floated his idea that JJ Wetherholt should be moved to CF . All kinds of ideas get floated.

Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑04 Dec 2025 10:04 am

ramfandan wrote: ↑04 Dec 2025 09:05 am

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 22:38 pm

renostl wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 22:31 pm

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 22:01 pm

Hoosier59 wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 21:57 pm I’ve been steadfast in my opinion on not trading Donovan. I still do not want him traded, however, Bernie makes some good points as why they should. The reality is that the Cardinals aren’t going to suddenly change their minds and go for it all in 2026. They just aren’t! As bad as some us want them to and think they should, they aren’t going to do so. Bill DeWitt is determined to cut payroll to Historic lows! He is not going to try and compete in the current conditions that exist in MLB! His heart isn’t in it to spend that much money. If, a big if, the collect bargaining agreement is changed to more align with Bill’s way of thinking, then he may consider to start trying to win again. If there aren’t enough changes to suit him, then I think he sells the team, at least his part.
Now, back to Brendan Donovan, if then, the Cardinals aren't going to try and win anytime soon, then, yes they need to trade him. I hate saying that, but it’s the truth. However, as Bernie states, Bloom has to receive a high return! Don’t settle for anything less!
There isn’t a such thing as a “ can’t miss prospect “ but Bloom needs to come as close as possible on this trade.
Time will tell!

That's why I'd much rather trade Donny for a known quantity than a "can't miss" prospect. Get the youngest future star who is already producing in MLB who can help us at a position of need NOW, AND be here for years. Like an Andy Pages.

The risk adjusted expected return of a young but proven MLB player is almost always going to bring us better value in a Donovan type trade than the risk adjusted expected return of a "can't miss" prospect.

There are guesses of the time-line as to when the Cardinals might be more competitive. The more proven players implies a player that is past rookie status. How much is gained in such a trade when Donovan may actually be able to play the position of that acquired player?
SP's with upside are premium, may need more than Donovan. C seems full, CF perhaps.
Not a challenge just trying to think it through to see what your idea looks like. Donovan isn't going to any team that isn't going for it. It almost has to be a redundancy player like Duran in Boston?

Good points. That's why I'm suggesting Pages - he can play CF and hit 27 HRs and he's only 24. And we have Zero good OFers. (Even Donny will never be a 4 WAR player playing only in LF - he doesn't have the bat for LF.) We have to acquire some from outside. But yes there's the issue that the Dodgers might never give him up, even for Donovan.

Alternatively we could trade Donny to a contender and acquire a player from another tanking team in a 3 way trade.

Randy Karriker on ST Central podcast the other day floated his idea that JJ Wetherholt should be moved to CF . All kinds of ideas get floated.

He has the most awful takes of anyone I know covering the Cardinals.

rockondlouie wrote: ↑04 Dec 2025 10:28 am

Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑04 Dec 2025 10:04 am

ramfandan wrote: ↑04 Dec 2025 09:05 am

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 22:38 pm

renostl wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 22:31 pm

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 22:01 pm

Hoosier59 wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 21:57 pm I’ve been steadfast in my opinion on not trading Donovan. I still do not want him traded, however, Bernie makes some good points as why they should. The reality is that the Cardinals aren’t going to suddenly change their minds and go for it all in 2026. They just aren’t! As bad as some us want them to and think they should, they aren’t going to do so. Bill DeWitt is determined to cut payroll to Historic lows! He is not going to try and compete in the current conditions that exist in MLB! His heart isn’t in it to spend that much money. If, a big if, the collect bargaining agreement is changed to more align with Bill’s way of thinking, then he may consider to start trying to win again. If there aren’t enough changes to suit him, then I think he sells the team, at least his part.
Now, back to Brendan Donovan, if then, the Cardinals aren't going to try and win anytime soon, then, yes they need to trade him. I hate saying that, but it’s the truth. However, as Bernie states, Bloom has to receive a high return! Don’t settle for anything less!
There isn’t a such thing as a “ can’t miss prospect “ but Bloom needs to come as close as possible on this trade.
Time will tell!

That's why I'd much rather trade Donny for a known quantity than a "can't miss" prospect. Get the youngest future star who is already producing in MLB who can help us at a position of need NOW, AND be here for years. Like an Andy Pages.

The risk adjusted expected return of a young but proven MLB player is almost always going to bring us better value in a Donovan type trade than the risk adjusted expected return of a "can't miss" prospect.

There are guesses of the time-line as to when the Cardinals might be more competitive. The more proven players implies a player that is past rookie status. How much is gained in such a trade when Donovan may actually be able to play the position of that acquired player?
SP's with upside are premium, may need more than Donovan. C seems full, CF perhaps.
Not a challenge just trying to think it through to see what your idea looks like. Donovan isn't going to any team that isn't going for it. It almost has to be a redundancy player like Duran in Boston?

Good points. That's why I'm suggesting Pages - he can play CF and hit 27 HRs and he's only 24. And we have Zero good OFers. (Even Donny will never be a 4 WAR player playing only in LF - he doesn't have the bat for LF.) We have to acquire some from outside. But yes there's the issue that the Dodgers might never give him up, even for Donovan.

Alternatively we could trade Donny to a contender and acquire a player from another tanking team in a 3 way trade.

Randy Karriker on ST Central podcast the other day floated his idea that JJ Wetherholt should be moved to CF . All kinds of ideas get floated.

He has the most awful takes of anyone I know covering the Cardinals.

+1

Randy's a moron

Poojols wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 23:02 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 21:11 pm He made one mistake. He said Wetherholt's best position is second base. Wetherholt played 61 games at shortstop and only 20 at second base. He might play second base because shortstop is blocked but that's not his best position.

Playing more games at one spot doesn't necessarily correlate to being a player's best position. It could be many factors that go into that decision. Actually it's somewhat common that college/minor league players start out at SS and move to 3B or 2B meaning that their best position is in fact not SS.

ClassicO wrote: ↑04 Dec 2025 09:06 am

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 21:11 pm He made one mistake. He said Wetherholt's best position is second base. Wetherholt played 61 games at shortstop and only 20 at second base. He might play second base because shortstop is blocked but that's not his best position.

In college, he played 64 games at 2b, 48 at 3b, and 29 at short.
The jury's out as to which is his best position.
I watched a lot of games on MiLB, and I certainly couldn't determine his best position. I was pleasantly surprised at his arm strength, which had been rumored to be not good enough for the left side of the infield.
It's a bit of a moot point because he's not a GG like Winn at SS, but it's great to have such a good player as a backup for SS if Winn goes down.

ClassicO wrote: ↑04 Dec 2025 09:06 am

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 21:11 pm He made one mistake. He said Wetherholt's best position is second base. Wetherholt played 61 games at shortstop and only 20 at second base. He might play second base because shortstop is blocked but that's not his best position.

In college, he played 64 games at 2b, 48 at 3b, and 29 at short.
The jury's out as to which is his best position.
I watched a lot of games on MiLB, and I certainly couldn't determine his best position. I was pleasantly surprised at his arm strength, which had been rumored to be not good enough for the left side of the infield.
It's a bit of a moot point because he's not a GG like Winn at SS, but it's great to have such a good player as a backup for SS if Winn goes down.

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑04 Dec 2025 12:55 pm

Poojols wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 23:02 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 21:11 pm He made one mistake. He said Wetherholt's best position is second base. Wetherholt played 61 games at shortstop and only 20 at second base. He might play second base because shortstop is blocked but that's not his best position.

Playing more games at one spot doesn't necessarily correlate to being a player's best position. It could be many factors that go into that decision. Actually it's somewhat common that college/minor league players start out at SS and move to 3B or 2B meaning that their best position is in fact not SS.

How does Bernie know second base is his best position when the Cardinals minor league coaches thought his best position was shortstop? Bernie just made that up to further the case he was making to trade Donovan. Perhaps the toughest play to make in baseball is the pivot at second base on a double play with throw coming from third base or shortstop. Facing away from first base. Runner bearing down. Turn and make a strong accurate throw to first base.

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑04 Dec 2025 12:55 pm

Poojols wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 23:02 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 21:11 pm He made one mistake. He said Wetherholt's best position is second base. Wetherholt played 61 games at shortstop and only 20 at second base. He might play second base because shortstop is blocked but that's not his best position.

Playing more games at one spot doesn't necessarily correlate to being a player's best position. It could be many factors that go into that decision. Actually it's somewhat common that college/minor league players start out at SS and move to 3B or 2B meaning that their best position is in fact not SS.

How does Bernie know second base is his best position when the Cardinals minor league coaches thought his best position was shortstop? Bernie just made that up to further the case he was making to trade Donovan. Perhaps the toughest play to make in baseball is the pivot at second base on a double play with throw coming from third base or shortstop. Facing away from first base. Runner bearing down. Turn and make a strong accurate throw to first base.

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑04 Dec 2025 13:01 pm

ClassicO wrote: ↑04 Dec 2025 09:06 am

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 21:11 pm He made one mistake. He said Wetherholt's best position is second base. Wetherholt played 61 games at shortstop and only 20 at second base. He might play second base because shortstop is blocked but that's not his best position.

In college, he played 64 games at 2b, 48 at 3b, and 29 at short.
The jury's out as to which is his best position.
I watched a lot of games on MiLB, and I certainly couldn't determine his best position. I was pleasantly surprised at his arm strength, which had been rumored to be not good enough for the left side of the infield.
It's a bit of a moot point because he's not a GG like Winn at SS, but it's great to have such a good player as a backup for SS if Winn goes down.

In the Cardinals system he played 85 games over 2 seasons at shortstop. 20 at second base. If the plan was to have him at second base why didn't they have him at second base?

Bernie said that to bolster his assertion that we should trade Donovan. Note to Bernie - now we can look this stuff up. It's called the internet.

ecleme22 wrote: ↑04 Dec 2025 13:08 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑04 Dec 2025 12:55 pm

Poojols wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 23:02 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 21:11 pm He made one mistake. He said Wetherholt's best position is second base. Wetherholt played 61 games at shortstop and only 20 at second base. He might play second base because shortstop is blocked but that's not his best position.

Playing more games at one spot doesn't necessarily correlate to being a player's best position. It could be many factors that go into that decision. Actually it's somewhat common that college/minor league players start out at SS and move to 3B or 2B meaning that their best position is in fact not SS.

How does Bernie know second base is his best position when the Cardinals minor league coaches thought his best position was shortstop? Bernie just made that up to further the case he was making to trade Donovan. Perhaps the toughest play to make in baseball is the pivot at second base on a double play with throw coming from third base or shortstop. Facing away from first base. Runner bearing down. Turn and make a strong accurate throw to first base.

Really? The second baseman's shoulders are lined up pretty perfectly to 1b

Hoosier59 wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 21:57 pm I’ve been steadfast in my opinion on not trading Donovan. I still do not want him traded, however, Bernie makes some good points as why they should. The reality is that the Cardinals aren’t going to suddenly change their minds and go for it all in 2026. They just aren’t! As bad as some us want them to and think they should, they aren’t going to do so. Bill DeWitt is determined to cut payroll to Historic lows! He is not going to try and compete in the current conditions that exist in MLB! His heart isn’t in it to spend that much money. If, a big if, the collect bargaining agreement is changed to more align with Bill’s way of thinking, then he may consider to start trying to win again. If there aren’t enough changes to suit him, then I think he sells the team, at least his part.
Now, back to Brendan Donovan, if then, the Cardinals aren't going to try and win anytime soon, then, yes they need to trade him. I hate saying that, but it’s the truth. However, as Bernie states, Bloom has to receive a high return! Don’t settle for anything less!
There isn’t a such thing as a “ can’t miss prospect “ but Bloom needs to come as close as possible on this trade.
Time will tell!

renostl wrote: ↑04 Dec 2025 13:09 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑04 Dec 2025 13:01 pm

ClassicO wrote: ↑04 Dec 2025 09:06 am

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 21:11 pm He made one mistake. He said Wetherholt's best position is second base. Wetherholt played 61 games at shortstop and only 20 at second base. He might play second base because shortstop is blocked but that's not his best position.

In college, he played 64 games at 2b, 48 at 3b, and 29 at short.
The jury's out as to which is his best position.
I watched a lot of games on MiLB, and I certainly couldn't determine his best position. I was pleasantly surprised at his arm strength, which had been rumored to be not good enough for the left side of the infield.
It's a bit of a moot point because he's not a GG like Winn at SS, but it's great to have such a good player as a backup for SS if Winn goes down.

In the Cardinals system he played 85 games over 2 seasons at shortstop. 20 at second base. If the plan was to have him at second base why didn't they have him at second base?

Bernie said that to bolster his assertion that we should trade Donovan. Note to Bernie - now we can look this stuff up. It's called the internet.

I am the belief that if a player can play SS then either 2B or 3B
are actually being checked off as good too. So we may disagree on that.

ramfandan wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 19:23 pm From STL Sports Central

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzEM5v4nr_s Time: 25 min. 50 sec.

Bernie argues that while it hurts to lose a leader , trading Donovan might be the smartest move for the franchise rebuild.

ramfandan wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 19:23 pm From STL Sports Central

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzEM5v4nr_s Time: 25 min. 50 sec.

Bernie argues that while it hurts to lose a leader , trading Donovan might be the smartest move for the franchise rebuild.