STLtoday.com

Posted: **15 Nov 2025 11:19 am**

Ace wrote: ↑15 Nov 2025 09:24 am Forget what players we are looking to trade, who are we building around?

Wetherholt
Winn
Doyle
Mathews
Baez
Herrera
Bernal
Rodriguez

Saggese
Hence

Gorman/Walker/Noot/Donovan/Burleson? Think this is the grouping anything can happen with these players.

Hopefully get some value out of the grouping of guys like Franklin, Hjerpe, Roby, Jesus Baez, Padilla, Ixan Henderson, etc. Other names to watch such as Daniel Ortiz and Dos Santos.

Makes sense to move veterans and continue to build. Depth is strengthening but not a lot of top tier talent. Primarily need to bring in more pitching and OF help.

Good list but one pitcher omitted : Tanner Franklin the fireballer will be tried as a starter first but at the least will be a key bullpen guy

Posted: **15 Nov 2025 11:23 am**

ecleme22 wrote: ↑15 Nov 2025 11:19 am
scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑15 Nov 2025 11:17 am
ilcubuffs wrote: ↑15 Nov 2025 11:11 am Stating Burleson and Herrara are "build arounds" says it all. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Approaching avg one dimensional players is not a foundation for anything.
So what about Winn? Isn't he one dimensional?
He was pretty good offensively in 2024

League average. Declined in all of the 4 major stats, and below league average last year. He's all glove. Can he adjust to the league figuring him out?

Posted: **15 Nov 2025 11:27 am**

OldRed wrote: ↑15 Nov 2025 09:29 am Winn #1
Herrera #2
Wetherholt #3
Burleson #4

And the rest at this time is a (bleep) shoot.

That's true but it's also true that the prospects are in large part what we are building around. We need most of them to pan out if we are to be successful.

Posted: **15 Nov 2025 11:45 am**

scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑15 Nov 2025 11:23 am
ecleme22 wrote: ↑15 Nov 2025 11:19 am
scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑15 Nov 2025 11:17 am
ilcubuffs wrote: ↑15 Nov 2025 11:11 am Stating Burleson and Herrara are "build arounds" says it all. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Approaching avg one dimensional players is not a foundation for anything.
So what about Winn? Isn't he one dimensional?
He was pretty good offensively in 2024
League average. Declined in all of the 4 major stats, and below league average last year. He's all glove. Can he adjust to the league figuring him out?

Who said the league figured him out?

Posted: **15 Nov 2025 11:55 am**

ecleme22 wrote: ↑15 Nov 2025 11:45 am
scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑15 Nov 2025 11:23 am
ecleme22 wrote: ↑15 Nov 2025 11:19 am
scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑15 Nov 2025 11:17 am
ilcubuffs wrote: ↑15 Nov 2025 11:11 am Stating Burleson and Herrara are "build arounds" says it all. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Approaching avg one dimensional players is not a foundation for anything.
So what about Winn? Isn't he one dimensional?
He was pretty good offensively in 2024
League average. Declined in all of the 4 major stats, and below league average last year. He's all glove. Can he adjust to the league figuring him out?
Who said the league figured him out?

I did. His numbers got worse last year from his previous year. Declined in all 4 major hitting stats and below league average...

Posted: **15 Nov 2025 12:19 pm**

scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑15 Nov 2025 11:55 am
ecleme22 wrote: ↑15 Nov 2025 11:45 am
scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑15 Nov 2025 11:23 am
ecleme22 wrote: ↑15 Nov 2025 11:19 am
scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑15 Nov 2025 11:17 am
ilcubuffs wrote: ↑15 Nov 2025 11:11 am Stating Burleson and Herrara are "build arounds" says it all. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Approaching avg one dimensional players is not a foundation for anything.
So what about Winn? Isn't he one dimensional?
He was pretty good offensively in 2024
League average. Declined in all of the 4 major stats, and below league average last year. He's all glove. Can he adjust to the league figuring him out?
Who said the league figured him out?
I did. His numbers got worse last year from his previous year. Declined in all 4 major hitting stats and below league average...

So you have no proof. He was also injured in 2025.

You also said last year MW would never win a gold glove.

You’re not very good at this….

Posted: **15 Nov 2025 12:40 pm**

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑15 Nov 2025 11:27 am
OldRed wrote: ↑15 Nov 2025 09:29 am Winn #1
Herrera #2
Wetherholt #3
Burleson #4

And the rest at this time is a (bleep) shoot.
That's true but it's also true that the prospects are in large part what we are building around. We need most of them to pan out if we are to be successful.

That's why I called it a (bleep) shoot. It's a roll of dice and hope there are players who they can develop and produce.

Posted: **15 Nov 2025 12:47 pm**

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑15 Nov 2025 10:23 am
mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑15 Nov 2025 10:02 am
ecleme22 wrote: ↑15 Nov 2025 09:54 am
mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑15 Nov 2025 09:47 am
Bully4you wrote: ↑15 Nov 2025 09:39 am
mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑15 Nov 2025 09:35 am I think what they are generally planning to build around right now is:

C/DH - Herrera
1B - Burleson
2B - Wetherholt
SS - Winn

SP - Doyle
SP - Liberatore

and Leahy, Svanson, O'Brien to a lesser degree somewhere in the pitching mix. Maybe Saggese as a bench player.

and then a next-level buy in for:

OF - Josh Baez
C- Bernal/Rodriguez
SP - Mathews
SP/RP - Hence
SP/RP - Franklin

Then you have reclamation projects like Gorman, Walker, maybe Nootbaar that you're not counting but maybe just hoping to get more out of.
Yeah, have to say that is pretty accurate.
[fork]ing rebuild here we come.
Gonna be so exciting.
What is the ******* alternative?!?

We've already watched them try the alternative of slapping band-aid after band-aid on the ML roster for the last decade. And they've got one NLCS trip where they got swept, three first round playoff losses, and a bunch of missed playoffs seasons to show for it.

Is that what we want to continue?!?
Band aids can be good when you have a good prospect pipeline. Beltran was a bit of a band aid.

But when the pipeline is broken, you have to rebuild the foundation. No shortcuts. I'm sure you agree.
Yes, band aid on a paper cut is one thing, band aid on a gaping chest wound is something else.

And when is comes to not having enough developed young talent on the current roster, they are much closer to gaping chest wound.
We used to call it a sucking chest wound, due to the air being sucked in and out by a lung.

Same affect.

did you intend to say 'effect" ?

Posted: **15 Nov 2025 12:49 pm**

You build around pitching.

That's as old as the game itself.

Mathews, Doyle, Liberatore.

Position wise Wetherholt, Winn, and settle on a catcher then trade from a perceived strength at the position.

Trade Donnie ballgame. Hopefully for at least a solid second tier starting pitching prospect. That's probably the best you can hope for.

Posted: **15 Nov 2025 13:22 pm**

OldRed wrote: ↑15 Nov 2025 12:40 pm
ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑15 Nov 2025 11:27 am
OldRed wrote: ↑15 Nov 2025 09:29 am Winn #1
Herrera #2
Wetherholt #3
Burleson #4

And the rest at this time is a (bleep) shoot.
That's true but it's also true that the prospects are in large part what we are building around. We need most of them to pan out if we are to be successful.
That's why I called it a (bleep) shoot. It's a roll of dice and hope there are players who they can develop and produce.

I agree 100% but that's what a rebuild is. Pirates do it every year and fail. Other teams have better success. Success or fail that's where we are. I would point out we don't yet know what Wetherholt will do either. He seems impressive but so did Caglianone.

Posted: **15 Nov 2025 13:32 pm**

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑15 Nov 2025 13:22 pm
OldRed wrote: ↑15 Nov 2025 12:40 pm
ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑15 Nov 2025 11:27 am
OldRed wrote: ↑15 Nov 2025 09:29 am Winn #1
Herrera #2
Wetherholt #3
Burleson #4

And the rest at this time is a (bleep) shoot.
That's true but it's also true that the prospects are in large part what we are building around. We need most of them to pan out if we are to be successful.
That's why I called it a (bleep) shoot. It's a roll of dice and hope there are players who they can develop and produce.
I agree 100% but that's what a rebuild is. Pirates do it every year and fail. Other teams have better success. Success or fail that's where we are. I would point out we don't yet know what Wetherholt will do either. He seems impressive but so did Caglianone.

Pirates don’t do it every year.

Posted: **15 Nov 2025 13:42 pm**

ecleme22 wrote: ↑15 Nov 2025 13:32 pm
ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑15 Nov 2025 13:22 pm
OldRed wrote: ↑15 Nov 2025 12:40 pm
ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑15 Nov 2025 11:27 am
OldRed wrote: ↑15 Nov 2025 09:29 am Winn #1
Herrera #2
Wetherholt #3
Burleson #4

And the rest at this time is a (bleep) shoot.
That's true but it's also true that the prospects are in large part what we are building around. We need most of them to pan out if we are to be successful.
That's why I called it a (bleep) shoot. It's a roll of dice and hope there are players who they can develop and produce.
I agree 100% but that's what a rebuild is. Pirates do it every year and fail. Other teams have better success. Success or fail that's where we are. I would point out we don't yet know what Wetherholt will do either. He seems impressive but so did Caglianone.
Pirates don’t do it every year.

When was the last time they weren't in the bottom 10 in payroll? Perpetual rebuild.

Posted: **15 Nov 2025 13:53 pm**

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑15 Nov 2025 13:42 pm
ecleme22 wrote: ↑15 Nov 2025 13:32 pm
ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑15 Nov 2025 13:22 pm
OldRed wrote: ↑15 Nov 2025 12:40 pm
ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑15 Nov 2025 11:27 am
OldRed wrote: ↑15 Nov 2025 09:29 am Winn #1
Herrera #2
Wetherholt #3
Burleson #4

And the rest at this time is a (bleep) shoot.
That's true but it's also true that the prospects are in large part what we are building around. We need most of them to pan out if we are to be successful.
That's why I called it a (bleep) shoot. It's a roll of dice and hope there are players who they can develop and produce.
I agree 100% but that's what a rebuild is. Pirates do it every year and fail. Other teams have better success. Success or fail that's where we are. I would point out we don't yet know what Wetherholt will do either. He seems impressive but so did Caglianone.
Pirates don’t do it every year.
When was the last time they weren't in the bottom 10 in payroll? Perpetual rebuild.

Jeez, I have to educate some of you.

There’s a difference between rebuilding and just being cheap. There’s a difference between having a plan and not having a plan.

Posted: **15 Nov 2025 14:17 pm**

Have not seen McGreevy's name mentioned.

Posted: **15 Nov 2025 14:23 pm**

redbirdfan51 wrote: ↑15 Nov 2025 14:17 pm Have not seen McGreevy's name mentioned.

Do you see him as a possible cornerstone rotation arm?

He has value as a cost controlled back end starter who can give you innings and that's probably his ceiling.

Posted: **15 Nov 2025 14:37 pm**

ecleme22 wrote: ↑15 Nov 2025 13:53 pm
ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑15 Nov 2025 13:42 pm
ecleme22 wrote: ↑15 Nov 2025 13:32 pm
ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑15 Nov 2025 13:22 pm
OldRed wrote: ↑15 Nov 2025 12:40 pm
ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑15 Nov 2025 11:27 am
OldRed wrote: ↑15 Nov 2025 09:29 am Winn #1
Herrera #2
Wetherholt #3
Burleson #4

And the rest at this time is a (bleep) shoot.
That's true but it's also true that the prospects are in large part what we are building around. We need most of them to pan out if we are to be successful.
That's why I called it a (bleep) shoot. It's a roll of dice and hope there are players who they can develop and produce.
I agree 100% but that's what a rebuild is. Pirates do it every year and fail. Other teams have better success. Success or fail that's where we are. I would point out we don't yet know what Wetherholt will do either. He seems impressive but so did Caglianone.
Pirates don’t do it every year.
When was the last time they weren't in the bottom 10 in payroll? Perpetual rebuild.
Jeez, I have to educate some of you.

There’s a difference between rebuilding and just being cheap. There’s a difference between having a plan and not having a plan.

There's a difference between being well hung, and hung well.

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