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opti mist wrote: ↑14 Oct 2025 08:29 am In the past there was Whitey-ball, typified by Ozzie at shortstop and Willie in centerfield, with Brock and Coleman--defense and speed. Hit for average and scratch out runs. It was the Cardinals' identity.

It seemed the Cardinals were going back to that identity with the "pitch-to-contact" and emphasis on defense. This got confused as the Cardinals searched for offense and positions to play Burleson, Walker, and Gorman, none of whom are particularly good at defense. Then when Walker and Gorman also failed at offense, the identity was dazed and confused. If you are going with these three in the everyday lineup, then the pitching philosophy has to switch to "pitching-to-miss bats," which the Cardinals do not have in their farm system ready for MLB.

So, my questions are:
If the Cardinals choose an identity, which should it be: defense or offense, and
Which are they closer to--emphasizing defense or offense?

On a somewhat sidenote, I think it is cheaper to emphasize defense and speed. The power bats are much more expensive as are the power pitchers.

Thinking about this leads me to believe that the Cardinals really are a mess right now with no quick or obvious fix. They may actually try one more year to fix Gorman and Walker. If Gorman and Walker continue to fail, the next several years will be brutal.

Opti

BrockFloodMaris wrote: ↑14 Oct 2025 14:53 pm

opti mist wrote: ↑14 Oct 2025 08:29 am In the past there was Whitey-ball, typified by Ozzie at shortstop and Willie in centerfield, with Brock and Coleman--defense and speed. Hit for average and scratch out runs. It was the Cardinals' identity.

It seemed the Cardinals were going back to that identity with the "pitch-to-contact" and emphasis on defense. This got confused as the Cardinals searched for offense and positions to play Burleson, Walker, and Gorman, none of whom are particularly good at defense. Then when Walker and Gorman also failed at offense, the identity was dazed and confused. If you are going with these three in the everyday lineup, then the pitching philosophy has to switch to "pitching-to-miss bats," which the Cardinals do not have in their farm system ready for MLB.

So, my questions are:
If the Cardinals choose an identity, which should it be: defense or offense, and
Which are they closer to--emphasizing defense or offense?

On a somewhat sidenote, I think it is cheaper to emphasize defense and speed. The power bats are much more expensive as are the power pitchers.

Thinking about this leads me to believe that the Cardinals really are a mess right now with no quick or obvious fix. They may actually try one more year to fix Gorman and Walker. If Gorman and Walker continue to fail, the next several years will be brutal.

Opti

Great questions, Opti! At the end of the day, I'm not sure it really matters a great deal which path a team takes to success--great offense or great defense. TLR always said that the number one job was run prevention.

What does matter, I think, in deploying one of those strategies successfully is being better than most at talent assessment and talent development. Mo was atrocious at both of those skills. If we get good at assessment and development, we will get better and better.

hmoss859 wrote: ↑14 Oct 2025 12:29 pm

JuanAgosto wrote: ↑14 Oct 2025 09:48 am The Cardinals lost their identity about 10 years ago. When Jeff Luhnow left the organization, Johnny Mozeliak gained full control. He used his trifecta talents of laziness, foolishness, and arrogance to drive the team off the cliff. Left unchecked by BDW, Mozeliak fired anyone who pushed back. That resulted in the mess we have today. What a putz.

Spot on

Don’t underestimate HackGate either, there was some nefarious back room dealing with Manfred to save BDW and Mo, lone wolf theory never passed the smell test

11WSChamps wrote: ↑14 Oct 2025 15:41 pm Being relevant was an identity.

Not anymore.

hmoss859 wrote: ↑14 Oct 2025 12:29 pm

JuanAgosto wrote: ↑14 Oct 2025 09:48 am The Cardinals lost their identity about 10 years ago. When Jeff Luhnow left the organization, Johnny Mozeliak gained full control. He used his trifecta talents of laziness, foolishness, and arrogance to drive the team off the cliff. Left unchecked by BDW, Mozeliak fired anyone who pushed back. That resulted in the mess we have today. What a putz.

Spot on

Don’t underestimate HackGate either, there was some nefarious back room dealing with Manfred to save BDW and Mo, lone wolf theory never passed the smell test

opti mist wrote: ↑14 Oct 2025 08:29 am In the past there was Whitey-ball, typified by Ozzie at shortstop and Willie in centerfield, with Brock and Coleman--defense and speed. Hit for average and scratch out runs. It was the Cardinals' identity.

It seemed the Cardinals were going back to that identity with the "pitch-to-contact" and emphasis on defense. This got confused as the Cardinals searched for offense and positions to play Burleson, Walker, and Gorman, none of whom are particularly good at defense. Then when Walker and Gorman also failed at offense, the identity was dazed and confused. If you are going with these three in the everyday lineup, then the pitching philosophy has to switch to "pitching-to-miss bats," which the Cardinals do not have in their farm system ready for MLB.

So, my questions are:
If the Cardinals choose an identity, which should it be: defense or offense, and
Which are they closer to--emphasizing defense or offense?

On a somewhat sidenote, I think it is cheaper to emphasize defense and speed. The power bats are much more expensive as are the power pitchers.

Thinking about this leads me to believe that the Cardinals really are a mess right now with no quick or obvious fix. They may actually try one more year to fix Gorman and Walker. If Gorman and Walker continue to fail, the next several years will be brutal.

Opti

JuanAgosto wrote: ↑14 Oct 2025 16:08 pm

hmoss859 wrote: ↑14 Oct 2025 12:29 pm

JuanAgosto wrote: ↑14 Oct 2025 09:48 am The Cardinals lost their identity about 10 years ago. When Jeff Luhnow left the organization, Johnny Mozeliak gained full control. He used his trifecta talents of laziness, foolishness, and arrogance to drive the team off the cliff. Left unchecked by BDW, Mozeliak fired anyone who pushed back. That resulted in the mess we have today. What a putz.

Spot on

Don’t underestimate HackGate either, there was some nefarious back room dealing with Manfred to save BDW and Mo, lone wolf theory never passed the smell test

I agree it seemed fishy that one underling was able to do this without anyone knowing. What do you think it took to keep him quiet?

Alex Reyes Cy Young wrote: ↑14 Oct 2025 15:34 pm

hmoss859 wrote: ↑14 Oct 2025 12:29 pm

JuanAgosto wrote: ↑14 Oct 2025 09:48 am The Cardinals lost their identity about 10 years ago. When Jeff Luhnow left the organization, Johnny Mozeliak gained full control. He used his trifecta talents of laziness, foolishness, and arrogance to drive the team off the cliff. Left unchecked by BDW, Mozeliak fired anyone who pushed back. That resulted in the mess we have today. What a putz.

Spot on

Don’t underestimate HackGate either, there was some nefarious back room dealing with Manfred to save BDW and Mo, lone wolf theory never passed the smell test

Only the small minded and folks in denial bought the lone actor line of garbage. Besides loss of institutional control should have been enacted.

That long SI article had so many “hints” and “gestures” in it, it was almost comical.

WeeVikes wrote: ↑14 Oct 2025 16:27 pm

JuanAgosto wrote: ↑14 Oct 2025 16:08 pm

hmoss859 wrote: ↑14 Oct 2025 12:29 pm

JuanAgosto wrote: ↑14 Oct 2025 09:48 am The Cardinals lost their identity about 10 years ago. When Jeff Luhnow left the organization, Johnny Mozeliak gained full control. He used his trifecta talents of laziness, foolishness, and arrogance to drive the team off the cliff. Left unchecked by BDW, Mozeliak fired anyone who pushed back. That resulted in the mess we have today. What a putz.

Spot on

Don’t underestimate HackGate either, there was some nefarious back room dealing with Manfred to save BDW and Mo, lone wolf theory never passed the smell test

I agree it seemed fishy that one underling was able to do this without anyone knowing. What do you think it took to keep him quiet?

Fair, however, I’ve never understood the scenario under which the Feds would have overlooked this. I would guess they knew everything there was to know, and if things went higher, why wouldn’t the FBI have indicted everyone? Why would they have let BDW and Mo off the hook? That never made sense to me.

JuanAgosto wrote: ↑14 Oct 2025 09:48 am The Cardinals lost their identity about 10 years ago. When Jeff Luhnow left the organization, Johnny Mozeliak gained full control. He used his trifecta talents of laziness, foolishness, and arrogance to drive the team off the cliff. Left unchecked by BDW, Mozeliak fired anyone who pushed back. That resulted in the mess we have today. What a putz.

rockondlouie wrote: ↑14 Oct 2025 08:49 am One person is to blame, the guy who had control of the major league roster & the minor league system.

BDWJr was asleep at the wheel allowing Mo to destroy the franchise, should've been fired years ago.

Cranny wrote: ↑14 Oct 2025 18:32 pm

JuanAgosto wrote: ↑14 Oct 2025 09:48 am The Cardinals lost their identity about 10 years ago. When Jeff Luhnow left the organization, Johnny Mozeliak gained full control. He used his trifecta talents of laziness, foolishness, and arrogance to drive the team off the cliff. Left unchecked by BDW, Mozeliak fired anyone who pushed back. That resulted in the mess we have today. What a putz.

He actually was quite good for many years. Just tailed off at the end.

hmoss859 wrote: ↑14 Oct 2025 12:29 pm

JuanAgosto wrote: ↑14 Oct 2025 09:48 am The Cardinals lost their identity about 10 years ago. When Jeff Luhnow left the organization, Johnny Mozeliak gained full control. He used his trifecta talents of laziness, foolishness, and arrogance to drive the team off the cliff. Left unchecked by BDW, Mozeliak fired anyone who pushed back. That resulted in the mess we have today. What a putz.

Spot on

Don’t underestimate HackGate either, there was some nefarious back room dealing with Manfred to save BDW and Mo, lone wolf theory never passed the smell test