good hitting beats elite pitching?

[Imperial Capitalist]

I think you have that backwards....elite hitting beats good pitching. Nothing about Greene screams "elite", though he is quite good. The Dodgers however, with Ohtani, Freeman, Betts, et al, are very much an elite hitting team.

Agree with you on the Dodgers lineup.

But Greene - 2.75/2.76 ERA past 2 years, 11 K/9ip.
6.2 WAR last year. on pace for 7 WAR this year if he'd made 30 starts. What is the cutoff for Elite? Can't be much higher than 7?

Yeah I'd take off a few points because he's never made 30 starts. But he's a lot closer to elite than he is to any of the Cards pitchers level. Who in our system projects to be better than Greene?

7 ip, 1 h, 1 er, 2 bb, 12 k

2.33 ip, 4 h, 5 er, 4 bb, 3 k

Those are Hunter Greene's, respectively, 1st and 2nd starts in September. Team 1: NY Mets. Team 2: 'Oakland' As.

His 3rd start?

9 ip, 1 h, 0 er, 1 bb,9 k --- versus the Chicago Cubs.

When he shat the bed vs a 2nd division team a few weeks ago, should Cincy have altered their rotation to avoid having him face a post-season club in his next start...even though he'd thoroughly dominated a different (then) post-season club in his previous start?

So, what conclusions should we draw from all of this, other than to say Greene stumbled in his first post-season game?

My conclusion is that experience probably counts more than any of us realize in the playoffs. Nothing against Greene, and yeah anything Can happen. But I don't want to try to build a contender with no one over 27-28 years old. Its just not going to work.

LA signed Snell to an AAV contract of $36.4 million (5 yr, $182MM). The odds of STL winning a F/A signing battle like that are located between slim & none, especially when (by ~ 2028) a Snell-esque contract will be north of $40MM/season...depending on the 2027 CBA.

Developing quality, cost-controlled pitching, like Greene, is their best hope of reaching elite status again.

Don't forget--- Blake Snell was a "green" post-season pitcher at one time, and managed to do pretty well.

[Carp4Cy]

I think you have that backwards....elite hitting beats good pitching. Nothing about Greene screams "elite", though he is quite good. The Dodgers however, with Ohtani, Freeman, Betts, et al, are very much an elite hitting team.

Agree with you on the Dodgers lineup.

But Greene - 2.75/2.76 ERA past 2 years, 11 K/9ip.
6.2 WAR last year. on pace for 7 WAR this year if he'd made 30 starts. What is the cutoff for Elite? Can't be much higher than 7?

Yeah I'd take off a few points because he's never made 30 starts. But he's a lot closer to elite than he is to any of the Cards pitchers level. Who in our system projects to be better than Greene?

7 ip, 1 h, 1 er, 2 bb, 12 k

2.33 ip, 4 h, 5 er, 4 bb, 3 k

Those are Hunter Greene's, respectively, 1st and 2nd starts in September. Team 1: NY Mets. Team 2: 'Oakland' As.

His 3rd start?

9 ip, 1 h, 0 er, 1 bb,9 k --- versus the Chicago Cubs.

When he shat the bed vs a 2nd division team a few weeks ago, should Cincy have altered their rotation to avoid having him face a post-season club in his next start...even though he'd thoroughly dominated a different (then) post-season club in his previous start?

So, what conclusions should we draw from all of this, other than to say Greene stumbled in his first post-season game?

My conclusion is that experience probably counts more than any of us realize in the playoffs. Nothing against Greene, and yeah anything Can happen. But I don't want to try to build a contender with no one over 27-28 years old. Its just not going to work.

LA signed Snell to an AAV contract of $36.4 million (5 yr, $182MM). The odds of STL winning a F/A signing battle like that are located between slim & none, especially when (by ~ 2028) a Snell-esque contract will be north of $40MM/season...depending on the 2027 CBA.

Developing quality, cost-controlled pitching, like Greene, is their best hope of reaching elite status again.

Don't forget--- Blake Snell was a "green" post-season pitcher at one time, and managed to do pretty well.

Snell never completed 6 IP in the playoffs until this week. So he's better with experience too.

[Ozziesfan41]

Greene is also relatively green compared with Snell. He looked rattled out there, and to be frank, was tossing meatballs. That slider he threw to T. Hernandez for the 3-run HR was your classic cement mixer. Up. Gone.

But isn’t a Greene the absolute ideal outcome that blooms plan could produce? And yet he still gets beat by a somewhat above average vet with a veteran offense behind him.

How is anything a farm system can produce ever going to beat that. You need the right vets to have a chance VS LA.

Yea but the dodgers are one of the few teams that can afford to spend 182 million on a guy injured as often as snell who gave them 20 starts last season and just 11 this season. Greene has started a grand total of 1 game in the post season it’s silly to judge him on that. Clayton kershaw is a veteran ace has a .500 record in the post season with a 4.49 ERA. So just because you’re a veteran doesn’t mean you will be great in the post season look at Flaherty last season also and just because you’re young doesn’t mean you will suck in the post season. It’s a strange argument to argue against having a homegrown ace

[Imperial Capitalist]

I think you have that backwards....elite hitting beats good pitching. Nothing about Greene screams "elite", though he is quite good. The Dodgers however, with Ohtani, Freeman, Betts, et al, are very much an elite hitting team.

Agree with you on the Dodgers lineup.

But Greene - 2.75/2.76 ERA past 2 years, 11 K/9ip.
6.2 WAR last year. on pace for 7 WAR this year if he'd made 30 starts. What is the cutoff for Elite? Can't be much higher than 7?

Yeah I'd take off a few points because he's never made 30 starts. But he's a lot closer to elite than he is to any of the Cards pitchers level. Who in our system projects to be better than Greene?

7 ip, 1 h, 1 er, 2 bb, 12 k

2.33 ip, 4 h, 5 er, 4 bb, 3 k

Those are Hunter Greene's, respectively, 1st and 2nd starts in September. Team 1: NY Mets. Team 2: 'Oakland' As.

His 3rd start?

9 ip, 1 h, 0 er, 1 bb,9 k --- versus the Chicago Cubs.

When he shat the bed vs a 2nd division team a few weeks ago, should Cincy have altered their rotation to avoid having him face a post-season club in his next start...even though he'd thoroughly dominated a different (then) post-season club in his previous start?

So, what conclusions should we draw from all of this, other than to say Greene stumbled in his first post-season game?

My conclusion is that experience probably counts more than any of us realize in the playoffs. Nothing against Greene, and yeah anything Can happen. But I don't want to try to build a contender with no one over 27-28 years old. Its just not going to work.

LA signed Snell to an AAV contract of $36.4 million (5 yr, $182MM). The odds of STL winning a F/A signing battle like that are located between slim & none, especially when (by ~ 2028) a Snell-esque contract will be north of $40MM/season...depending on the 2027 CBA.

Developing quality, cost-controlled pitching, like Greene, is their best hope of reaching elite status again.

Don't forget--- Blake Snell was a "green" post-season pitcher at one time, and managed to do pretty well.

Snell never completed 6 IP in the playoffs until this week. So he's better with experience too.

And, in Tampa, he used to pitch in a system where regardless of how well one was doing, they were yanked when hitting a certain pitch count.

[Goldfan]

Think about it. If a hitter or offense is on…..mentally right spot….that player can hit just about anything thrown near the plate no matter the pitcher or what they’re throwing
Fascinating how the mind works
The flip side is you could have Mikolas up there throwing junk to a team or player in a historic slump and they do nothing against him

[Carp4Cy]

Think about it. If a hitter or offense is on…..mentally right spot….that player can hit just about anything thrown near the plate no matter the pitcher or what they’re throwing
Fascinating how the mind works
The flip side is you could have Mikolas up there throwing junk to a team or player in a historic slump and they do nothing against him

We need some hitters that aren't so streaky.