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Melville wrote: ↑26 Sep 2025 22:22 pm Reuniting Pujols, Wainwright, and Molina was the defining moment of the TOXIC CULTURE.
I was the only person who fully and immediately understood what it meant at the time.
And said so.

ecleme22 wrote: ↑26 Sep 2025 21:21 pm

brock118 wrote: ↑26 Sep 2025 21:11 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑26 Sep 2025 20:53 pm The levels of futility this org has felt the last five years really just comes down to one move:

Trading for Ozuna.

(Honorable mentions: signing Fowler and trading Randy)

2021: picked up two starters at the deadline:
2022: two starters at DL
2024: one starter at the DL

What would those teams look like with Sandy and Zac in the rotation?
What would the 2023 and 2025 teams look like?

Those trades also cost us Oviedo, Bader, Thomas and Edman. I’m not against trading any of those guys, but what else could we have gotten if we weren’t trying to patchwork the rotation?


Closing thoughts: this really comes to a few things:Lack of talent evaluation (high on Hudson/weaver/jack!) and making a move that should not be made by a mid market organization. If you need an OFer, you do what the 2004 did and sign a number of players on 1-2 year deals and hope one strikes gold. Or like the 2011 or 2012 cards team did.

One move—just one—changed MO’s legacy.

I think it goes back further. I think when Taveras died we had to shift. I'm not convinced Taveras would have been the next big thing, but he was ranked that way in almost all rankings. We then did a quick trade for Heyward and arguably overpaid for him. Atlanta turned Miller over for Dansby Swanson, who was one of the top prospects at the time. Then when Heyward told us to pound sand, we doubled down on a bad decision and overpaid and overextended Dexter Fowler. Which in turn led us to trying to get Ozuna.

Well it goes back to my reply to Braun.

The cards arguably needed an OFer for 2015. Why did it have to come in a trade? And to give up Miller, who was only 23 and coming off a solid season.

Also, not to mention the heart Mo had for Grichuk.

Lack of talent evaluation all around.

ecleme22 wrote: ↑26 Sep 2025 22:37 pm

Melville wrote: ↑26 Sep 2025 22:22 pm Reuniting Pujols, Wainwright, and Molina was the defining moment of the TOXIC CULTURE.
I was the only person who fully and immediately understood what it meant at the time.
And said so.

Totally disagree. I think, if Ozuna was never traded, that season would’ve been even better.

That was the pinnacle of Goldy and Arenado era.

Melville wrote: ↑26 Sep 2025 22:48 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑26 Sep 2025 22:37 pm

Melville wrote: ↑26 Sep 2025 22:22 pm Reuniting Pujols, Wainwright, and Molina was the defining moment of the TOXIC CULTURE.
I was the only person who fully and immediately understood what it meant at the time.
And said so.

Totally disagree. I think, if Ozuna was never traded, that season would’ve been even better.

That was the pinnacle of Goldy and Arenado era.

There was no pinnacle of the Goldschmidt - N/A era.
In fact, there never was a Goldschmidt - N/A era at all.
They were merely tools.
Tools meant to do the work while Pujols/Wainwright/Pujols were being paraded around for legacy marketing purposes.
All while betraying the future.
I understood it at the time.
Immediately recognized exactly how TOXIC it was.
The last 3 years have proven my analysis with perfection.
Were there other mistakes made along the way?
Of course.
But the reunion (and contracts that went with it) completley exposed the organization was not serious about on-going success.
It was a traveling circus.

ecleme22 wrote: ↑26 Sep 2025 20:53 pm The levels of futility this org has felt the last five years really just comes down to one move:

Trading for Ozuna.

(Honorable mentions: signing Fowler and trading Randy)

2021: picked up two starters at the deadline:
2022: two starters at DL
2024: one starter at the DL

What would those teams look like with Sandy and Zac in the rotation?
What would the 2023 and 2025 teams look like?

Those trades also cost us Oviedo, Bader, Thomas and Edman. I’m not against trading any of those guys, but what else could we have gotten if we weren’t trying to patchwork the rotation?


Closing thoughts: this really comes to a few things:Lack of talent evaluation (high on Hudson/weaver/jack!) and making a move that should not be made by a mid market organization. If you need an OFer, you do what the 2004 did and sign a number of players on 1-2 year deals and hope one strikes gold. Or like the 2011 or 2012 cards team did.

One move—just one—changed MO’s legacy.

ecleme22 wrote: ↑26 Sep 2025 22:37 pm

Melville wrote: ↑26 Sep 2025 22:22 pm Reuniting Pujols, Wainwright, and Molina was the defining moment of the TOXIC CULTURE.
I was the only person who fully and immediately understood what it meant at the time.
And said so.

Totally disagree. I think, if Ozuna was never traded, that season would’ve been even better.

That was the pinnacle of Goldy and Arenado era.

ecleme22 wrote: ↑26 Sep 2025 22:56 pm

Melville wrote: ↑26 Sep 2025 22:48 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑26 Sep 2025 22:37 pm

Melville wrote: ↑26 Sep 2025 22:22 pm Reuniting Pujols, Wainwright, and Molina was the defining moment of the TOXIC CULTURE.
I was the only person who fully and immediately understood what it meant at the time.
And said so.

Totally disagree. I think, if Ozuna was never traded, that season would’ve been even better.

That was the pinnacle of Goldy and Arenado era.

There was no pinnacle of the Goldschmidt - N/A era.
In fact, there never was a Goldschmidt - N/A era at all.
They were merely tools.
Tools meant to do the work while Pujols/Wainwright/Pujols were being paraded around for legacy marketing purposes.
All while betraying the future.
I understood it at the time.
Immediately recognized exactly how TOXIC it was.
The last 3 years have proven my analysis with perfection.
Were there other mistakes made along the way?
Of course.
But the reunion (and contracts that went with it) completley exposed the organization was not serious about on-going success.
It was a traveling circus.

I respect your opinion, but I look at 2022 a lot differently.

1. Goldy and Arenado were 1 and 3 in mvp voting. You can’t say 2022 wasn’t their pinnacle as cards.
2. Pujols had a monster year at 42 years old.
3. Waino was GREAT for 5 months. He had a 3.09 era the end of August.
4. Molina? Unfortunately I think he phoned it in a bit.

Don’t look at 2022 as some kumbaya between AW, AP and YM. Two out of the three came TO PLAY and WIN.

Melville wrote: ↑26 Sep 2025 22:48 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑26 Sep 2025 22:37 pm

Melville wrote: ↑26 Sep 2025 22:22 pm Reuniting Pujols, Wainwright, and Molina was the defining moment of the TOXIC CULTURE.
I was the only person who fully and immediately understood what it meant at the time.
And said so.

Totally disagree. I think, if Ozuna was never traded, that season would’ve been even better.

That was the pinnacle of Goldy and Arenado era.

There was no pinnacle of the Goldschmidt - N/A era.
In fact, there never was a Goldschmidt - N/A era at all.
They were merely tools.
Tools meant to do the work while Pujols/Wainwright/Pujols were being paraded around for legacy marketing purposes.
All while betraying the future.
I understood it at the time.
Immediately recognized exactly how TOXIC it was.
The last 3 years have proven my analysis with perfection.
Were there other mistakes made along the way?
Of course.
But the reunion (and contracts that went with it) completley exposed the organization was not serious about on-going success.
It was a traveling circus.

rockondlouie wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025 08:33 am The true downfall of the organization falls squarely on the shoulders of BDWJr who should've fired Mo years ago.

The blame is all on Bill who also had final approval on ALL the major moves (Managerial hirings, Free agent signings and extensions) Mo brought to him.

I've said this for years:

Bill Dewitt, Jr is the Problem!

TG he's finally woke up but only after seeing his attendance plummet.

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑26 Sep 2025 21:35 pm No it was far more than one move. It was bad move after bad move after bad move. That didn’t derail the franchise it was a hit they could have recovered from but signing mediocre players like Fowler leake mikolas trading arorzorena and keeping scrubs like Bader and O’Neil and Carlson and grichuk and Adams. No one move can derail a franchise only continual mistakes sinks a franchise which Mo did. Then instead of rebuilding last season he decided to try to “win” by signing Gibson and Lynn which only managed to get them a couple of more wins over .500 a complete wasted season on dumb moves on mediocre players then this season being dumb and not trading helsley and fedde in the offseason when their value was higher. He never stopped making dumb moves

icon wrote: ↑26 Sep 2025 21:44 pm

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑26 Sep 2025 21:35 pm No it was far more than one move. It was bad move after move after move. That didn’t derail the franchise it was a hit they could have recovered from but signing mediocre players like Fowler leake mikolas trading arorzorena and keeping scrubs like Bader and O’Neil and Carlson and grichuk and Adams. No one move can derail a franchise only continual mistakes sinks a franchise which Mo did. Then instead of rebuilding last season he decided to try to “win” by signing Gibson and Lynn which only managed to get them a couple of more wins over .500 a complete wasted season on dumb moves on mediocre players then this season being dumb and not trading helsley and fedde in the offseason when their value was higher. He never stopped making dumb moves

Yeah, Mozeliak put a torch to at least $300 million of BDW's money on lousy free agents and foolhardy extensions. Fowler, Leake, Cecil, Miller, Gregerson, Holland, Broxton, Mikolas, Carpenter, Waino. Not sure I've listed all the misfires.

The bad trades were just part of a general picture of gross incompetence.

icon wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025 08:46 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025 08:33 am The true downfall of the organization falls squarely on the shoulders of BDWJr who should've fired Mo years ago.

The blame is all on Bill who also had final approval on ALL the major moves (Managerial hirings, Free agent signings and extensions) Mo brought to him.

I've said this for years:

Bill Dewitt, Jr is the Problem!

TG he's finally woke up but only after seeing his attendance plummet.

And I have agreed with you for years. Yet here we still are, and now BDW Jr. is threatening to turn his team into the Pirates. Good luck to Bloom!

rockondlouie wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025 08:49 am

icon wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025 08:46 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025 08:33 am The true downfall of the organization falls squarely on the shoulders of BDWJr who should've fired Mo years ago.

The blame is all on Bill who also had final approval on ALL the major moves (Managerial hirings, Free agent signings and extensions) Mo brought to him.

I've said this for years:

Bill Dewitt, Jr is the Problem!

TG he's finally woke up but only after seeing his attendance plummet.

And I have agreed with you for years. Yet here we still are, and now BDW Jr. is threatening to turn his team into the Pirates. Good luck to Bloom!

Pitiful isn't it that Dewitt has let it come to this w/his managerial neglect.

And Bloom needs all the luck he can get trying to fix this Dewitt/Mo mess.