2015 WAS the pivotal year

[imadangman]

I've been saying it for the last 10 years. When Mo refused to give roster help to a overachieving team that was desparate for it (and looked like they could have been a team of destiny) in 2015, Mo sucked the life out of the team.

Matheny had that team humming. They were well on their way to their 8th best win total in their history. Despite their best starter, Waino, effectively being lost of the season early and their best hitter, injured/inconsistent most of the season, they had the heart of a tiger and managed to pull out victories. It didn't take a genius to see they were having a Cardinal season for the ages (esp. their bullpen, but their overall pitching). They however, offensively needed a good bat (not broken down Brandon Moss) and they needed a good replacement in the rotation for Waino to give them better playoff depth and take the pressure of the other starters. But, Mo would have none of it, he got neither. Instead dopey decided to keep 'dry powder'. They sacrificed a chance at Cardinal history to avoid any risk of a down season over the next few years. Without reinforcements, they were beaten up by the end of the season AND they were easy picking for a healthier, hungrier Cubs (who won the WS the next year). Is anyone suprised the next year, the team fell back 14 games and then 3 more in 2017 and struggled in 2018 until they replaced Matheny.

The team seem to have
* Lost faith in Matheny's ability to have their back.
* Lost faith that it they 'killed themselves' to be competitive that the FO would look out for and/or reward them with good reinforcements.

The team has never been the same since the FO let them down in 2015. Shildt was able to work with a flawed roster and somehow make it to the playoffs in full-season he managed. Then Mo, did the (bleep) thing and fired him. Were it not for Pujols wanting to come back home and him inspiring the team and going out with a bang, they would have fallen flat in 2022. Is it any surprise that the team doesn't have fire in their belly? They know Mo was not playing to win. He was playing to be competitive year in and year out, sacrificing the chance to go big if the team merited it. He was more interested in making sure the turnstiles didn't stop turning and wasn't committed to putting the best team on the field. The players could see that, so why risk injury for a FO whom winning was a secondary priority?

The fact that they kept Oli after the disaster of a 2023 season, showed they were committed to a manager who wouldn't rock the boat, who wouldn't push them.

https://redbirdrants.com/it-sure-sounds ... -offseason

While Lance Lynn publicly criticized Cardinals fans recently for getting upset at Mozeliak for how the last three years have gone, if you zoom out further than even those last three years, you can see the downfall coming for a decade. From 2008-2015, the Cardinals went 728-568 (.562 win%), making the postseason six of the eight campaigns, reaching the NLCS four times, the World Series twice, and winning one World Championship. But for the final ten seasons of Mozeliak's regime, they've gone 789-718 (.524 win%), making the playoffs just four of those ten years, winning four total playoff games, and reaching the NLCS just once.

I have also called 2015 the watershed year as well. But, I remember it a bit differently. The pitching staff was going great. However, it ran out of gas after the deadline. MO needed to add a bullpen arm and probably a swing starter to take some innings. They also needed a bat. I remember the collective groan when the bat was Moss. I went back and looked to see what players were moved at the deadline, Zobrist would have been the best get for a bat. He put up a solid 800+ OPS after the Royals acquired him. It was a massive miss by MO and the start of the downfall, I agree. It seemed like the team just won 100 games with no name players that year. MO seemed to think that would last forever without any particular rhyme or reason to it. As we all know, that ended...

Yeah, a credible bat and someone who was able to give the rotation a breather would have helped tremendously. What Mo didnt seem to take into account was morale. They knew that they were a very good team. They knew they were doing something historical (100+ win type season). They knew that they needed and really earned that. When Mo failed to get then what they needed and they ran out of gas in the first round, I think that told the team that Matheny couldnt go to the bat or them. They knew Mo wouldn't. Is it any surprise they fell to earth the next season, esp after signing Leake.


I think 2015 showed the team the FO wasn't serious about winning. Signing Leake emphasized that point. The buzz was gone on the team. The sense that the FO had a higher purpose wasn't there. It hasn't been there since. Just build enough to have a good shot at a playoff spot, not build a serious contender.

You: "Leake signing showed the Cards' FO wasn't interested in winning."

Me: Totally disagree. It showed, actually, they were still serious about winning, but lacked the savviness they once had. I mean, 5yr/80mil has to be the richest deal in Cards' history for a pitcher not named Waino.

Leake signing showed the FO cared.
Fowler signing showed the FO cared.
Ozuna trade showed the FO cared.

But it also showed that the TLR-era savviness and ability to evaluate talent and build a roster was no more.

It was equal to the Scherzer money spent on 3 ultimately useless players

[ecleme22]

I've been saying it for the last 10 years. When Mo refused to give roster help to a overachieving team that was desparate for it (and looked like they could have been a team of destiny) in 2015, Mo sucked the life out of the team.

Matheny had that team humming. They were well on their way to their 8th best win total in their history. Despite their best starter, Waino, effectively being lost of the season early and their best hitter, injured/inconsistent most of the season, they had the heart of a tiger and managed to pull out victories. It didn't take a genius to see they were having a Cardinal season for the ages (esp. their bullpen, but their overall pitching). They however, offensively needed a good bat (not broken down Brandon Moss) and they needed a good replacement in the rotation for Waino to give them better playoff depth and take the pressure of the other starters. But, Mo would have none of it, he got neither. Instead dopey decided to keep 'dry powder'. They sacrificed a chance at Cardinal history to avoid any risk of a down season over the next few years. Without reinforcements, they were beaten up by the end of the season AND they were easy picking for a healthier, hungrier Cubs (who won the WS the next year). Is anyone suprised the next year, the team fell back 14 games and then 3 more in 2017 and struggled in 2018 until they replaced Matheny.

The team seem to have
* Lost faith in Matheny's ability to have their back.
* Lost faith that it they 'killed themselves' to be competitive that the FO would look out for and/or reward them with good reinforcements.

The team has never been the same since the FO let them down in 2015. Shildt was able to work with a flawed roster and somehow make it to the playoffs in full-season he managed. Then Mo, did the (bleep) thing and fired him. Were it not for Pujols wanting to come back home and him inspiring the team and going out with a bang, they would have fallen flat in 2022. Is it any surprise that the team doesn't have fire in their belly? They know Mo was not playing to win. He was playing to be competitive year in and year out, sacrificing the chance to go big if the team merited it. He was more interested in making sure the turnstiles didn't stop turning and wasn't committed to putting the best team on the field. The players could see that, so why risk injury for a FO whom winning was a secondary priority?

The fact that they kept Oli after the disaster of a 2023 season, showed they were committed to a manager who wouldn't rock the boat, who wouldn't push them.

https://redbirdrants.com/it-sure-sounds ... -offseason

While Lance Lynn publicly criticized Cardinals fans recently for getting upset at Mozeliak for how the last three years have gone, if you zoom out further than even those last three years, you can see the downfall coming for a decade. From 2008-2015, the Cardinals went 728-568 (.562 win%), making the postseason six of the eight campaigns, reaching the NLCS four times, the World Series twice, and winning one World Championship. But for the final ten seasons of Mozeliak's regime, they've gone 789-718 (.524 win%), making the playoffs just four of those ten years, winning four total playoff games, and reaching the NLCS just once.

I have also called 2015 the watershed year as well. But, I remember it a bit differently. The pitching staff was going great. However, it ran out of gas after the deadline. MO needed to add a bullpen arm and probably a swing starter to take some innings. They also needed a bat. I remember the collective groan when the bat was Moss. I went back and looked to see what players were moved at the deadline, Zobrist would have been the best get for a bat. He put up a solid 800+ OPS after the Royals acquired him. It was a massive miss by MO and the start of the downfall, I agree. It seemed like the team just won 100 games with no name players that year. MO seemed to think that would last forever without any particular rhyme or reason to it. As we all know, that ended...

Yeah, a credible bat and someone who was able to give the rotation a breather would have helped tremendously. What Mo didnt seem to take into account was morale. They knew that they were a very good team. They knew they were doing something historical (100+ win type season). They knew that they needed and really earned that. When Mo failed to get then what they needed and they ran out of gas in the first round, I think that told the team that Matheny couldnt go to the bat or them. They knew Mo wouldn't. Is it any surprise they fell to earth the next season, esp after signing Leake.


I think 2015 showed the team the FO wasn't serious about winning. Signing Leake emphasized that point. The buzz was gone on the team. The sense that the FO had a higher purpose wasn't there. It hasn't been there since. Just build enough to have a good shot at a playoff spot, not build a serious contender.

You: "Leake signing showed the Cards' FO wasn't interested in winning."

Me: Totally disagree. It showed, actually, they were still serious about winning, but lacked the savviness they once had. I mean, 5yr/80mil has to be the richest deal in Cards' history for a pitcher not named Waino.

Leake signing showed the FO cared.
Fowler signing showed the FO cared.
Ozuna trade showed the FO cared.

But it also showed that the TLR-era savviness and ability to evaluate talent and build a roster was no more.

It was equal to the Scherzer money spent on 3 ultimately useless players

No one is arguing those deals were good.

[imadangman]

By the time of the Ozuna trade, the front office didn't need to be caring that much. They should have sold off at the 2017 deadline so by the off-season there would have been no confusion that they should be making that type of trade.

Think of an alternate reality where the Cardinals during that time period could have had a rotation of Scherzer, Wainwright, healthy Martinez, healthy Wacha... healthy Reyes...

[ecleme22]

By the time of the Ozuna trade, the front office didn't need to be caring that much. They should have sold off at the 2017 deadline so by the off-season there would have been no confusion that they should be making that type of trade.

Think of an alternate reality where the Cardinals during that time period could have had a rotation of Scherzer, Wainwright, healthy Martinez, healthy Wacha... healthy Reyes...

Or think of an alternate universe where, instead of trading for Ozuna, they grab one or two OFers in FA on short term deals. Now add Sandy and Gallen to the rotation the last 7 YEARS.

As I said, the Ozuna trade proved the FO cared. It also proved they weren't very good...