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Re: We have 4 good hitters. Looking to next year, what do we need to have a great offense?
Posted: 16 Sep 2025 13:23 pm
by Ozziesfan41
scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑16 Sep 2025 12:16 pm
Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑16 Sep 2025 12:10 pm
3dender wrote: ↑16 Sep 2025 12:00 pm
I'd expect the lineup to look a lot like:
Donovan 2B/3B
Herrera LF/DH
Burleson DH/RF
Contreras 1B
Gorman DH/3B
Wetherholt 2B/3B
Winn SS
Pages/Crooks C
Scott CF
(Noot gets traded and Walker starts the year in AAA)
You can hope Wetherholt does well enough to move into the #2 slot at some point, shifting everyone else down. But expecting .800+ OPS from JJ his rookie year is setting the kid up for failure.
I hope there isn’t another year of watching Gorman suck at the plate and in the field. He’s sucking just as bad this season as last season. This is turning into another Dylan Carlson situation where they are clinging to the foolish hope he turns it around another season of him every day is dumb
Costs them nothing
Which is exactly what he contributes
Re: We have 4 good hitters. Looking to next year, what do we need to have a great offense?
Posted: 16 Sep 2025 13:27 pm
by scoutyjones2
Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑16 Sep 2025 13:23 pm
scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑16 Sep 2025 12:16 pm
Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑16 Sep 2025 12:10 pm
3dender wrote: ↑16 Sep 2025 12:00 pm
I'd expect the lineup to look a lot like:
Donovan 2B/3B
Herrera LF/DH
Burleson DH/RF
Contreras 1B
Gorman DH/3B
Wetherholt 2B/3B
Winn SS
Pages/Crooks C
Scott CF
(Noot gets traded and Walker starts the year in AAA)
You can hope Wetherholt does well enough to move into the #2 slot at some point, shifting everyone else down. But expecting .800+ OPS from JJ his rookie year is setting the kid up for failure.
I hope there isn’t another year of watching Gorman suck at the plate and in the field. He’s sucking just as bad this season as last season. This is turning into another Dylan Carlson situation where they are clinging to the foolish hope he turns it around another season of him every day is dumb
Costs them nothing
Which is exactly what he contributes
I put him in the minors with JW
Re: We have 4 good hitters. Looking to next year, what do we need to have a great offense?
Posted: 16 Sep 2025 14:05 pm
by 12xu
scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑16 Sep 2025 12:09 pm
Nadam23 wrote: ↑16 Sep 2025 11:05 am
Our best 4 hitters:
Herrera .284/.371/.829
Contreras .257/.344/.791
Burleson .281/.333/.784
Donovan .283/.351/.760
So basically four .800 OPS guys. What do we need next season to have a great lineup? We know Winn and Pages/Crooks will be in the lineup. Winn should be in the .700-.750 OPS range. Pages/Crooks in the .650 - .700 range. Scott will probably also be in center. I would hope he can get in the .650-.700 range as well next year and get around 50 stolen bases.
So we need 2 more guys for the lineup and they need to be studs. 1 Infielder and 1 outfielder. I don't think Arenado, Gorman, Walker, or Nootbaar are the answer. I think to have a great lineup we just need these two players: Whetherholt and a free agent star (or trade for a star).
Whetherholt I think will be in the .800-.850 OPS range in his first year. The free agent star needs to be an outfielder with an .850 OPS or higher and be a 30+ HR hitter. Good luck finding that. There are only 6 players in MLB with an OPS over .900 this year and 20 over .850. Not a lot of options and also Bloom probably won't be adding a big contract in his first year and a with strike on the way.
So besides Whetherholt, how are we going to get that .850+ star player that can turn our lineup into a great one?
I see only two proven 800 OPS hitters
The other 2 have never hit 800.
Yes - and only one is a "proven" .800 hitter - Contreras - and he is only at .791 right now. Herrera is at .800 for his career, which is still a small sample size at 730 PA. Arenado used to be, but is far from it today. Burleson is trending up towards .800, and Donovan was also until he got hurt.
None of these players are going to bring a significant pitcher or batter in a trade unless in a package deal. Cards need to hold on to Herrera. Contreras and Arenado will probably use their no trade clause to veto any move. Burleson and Donovan together might get you a decent starting pitcher - or one could be combined with Nootbaar, Gorman, or Walker for that kind of return.
Re: We have 4 good hitters. Looking to next year, what do we need to have a great offense?
Posted: 16 Sep 2025 14:13 pm
by earp
We have 4 good hitters. Looking to next year:
Who do you build you winning team around?
Re: We have 4 good hitters. Looking to next year, what do we need to have a great offense?
Posted: 16 Sep 2025 14:43 pm
by Nadam23
Jatalk wrote: ↑16 Sep 2025 12:49 pm
Nadam23 wrote: ↑16 Sep 2025 11:05 am
Our best 4 hitters:
Herrera .284/.371/.829
Contreras .257/.344/.791
Burleson .281/.333/.784
Donovan .283/.351/.760
So basically four .800 OPS guys. What do we need next season to have a great lineup? We know Winn and Pages/Crooks will be in the lineup. Winn should be in the .700-.750 OPS range. Pages/Crooks in the .650 - .700 range. Scott will probably also be in center. I would hope he can get in the .650-.700 range as well next year and get around 50 stolen bases.
So we need 2 more guys for the lineup and they need to be studs. 1 Infielder and 1 outfielder. I don't think Arenado, Gorman, Walker, or Nootbaar are the answer. I think to have a great lineup we just need these two players: Whetherholt and a free agent star (or trade for a star).
Whetherholt I think will be in the .800-.850 OPS range in his first year. The free agent star needs to be an outfielder with an .850 OPS or higher and be a 30+ HR hitter. Good luck finding that. There are only 6 players in MLB with an OPS over .900 this year and 20 over .850. Not a lot of options and also Bloom probably won't be adding a big contract in his first year and a with strike on the way.
So besides Whetherholt, how are we going to get that .850+ star player that can turn our lineup into a great one?
You are not going to fix this team top to bottom by just adding one player from outside organization. You are going to have to wheel and deal. So many of the players you mention are probably traded over next season and the following. A consistent, high level, competing team has a lot of new faces.
I mean, Whetherholt and 1 star from outside combined with the others I listed would fix the offense IMO. You would basically be replacing Nootbar/Walker with a superstar and Arenado with Wetherholt. Those are big upgrades. Except it may take a Donovan to get that person. But yeah, we would have to keep our top 4 hitters.
Starting pitching is the other major issue, but I'm just talking about offense. I think we are pretty close. Just need that big bopper and for our first round pick to play like a first round pick (we're due for a 1st rounder to live up to the hype). Shortstop and CF defense are very good so offense can be less there.
Re: We have 4 good hitters. Looking to next year, what do we need to have a great offense?
Posted: 16 Sep 2025 14:45 pm
by pitchingandefense
There's a chance the offense could be league average by simply removing Nado, Walker and Gorman. Those three have combined for over 1100 plate appearances of less than league average production. Nado at least provided defense. But if we assume Nado is dealt and Walker/Gorman are not starting, the following lineup could be fine. I'll use their 2025 wRC+ since that's an adjusted stat, with 100 being league average.
2B Donovan 115
DH Herrera 135
LF Burleson 119
1B Contreras 123
3B Wetherholt
RF Nootbaar 98
C Pages 76
SS Winn 91
CF Scott 75
Assuming JJ can at least provide 100 wRC+ as a rookie, that would put the lineup at just about league average. It's a very good defensive alignment, with Burleson being the only bad glove. They should copy the Brewers by taking advantage of the modern rules and steal a lot more bases to generate more RISP opportunities since they don't hit a lot of homers, thus making it difficult to score a runner from first.
Replace Pallante and Mikolas with two upside pitchers in the rotation and bolster the bullpen to make a team that might be surprisingly competitive.
Re: We have 4 good hitters. Looking to next year, what do we need to have a great offense?
Posted: 16 Sep 2025 14:45 pm
by Nadam23
12xu wrote: ↑16 Sep 2025 14:05 pm
scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑16 Sep 2025 12:09 pm
Nadam23 wrote: ↑16 Sep 2025 11:05 am
Our best 4 hitters:
Herrera .284/.371/.829
Contreras .257/.344/.791
Burleson .281/.333/.784
Donovan .283/.351/.760
So basically four .800 OPS guys. What do we need next season to have a great lineup? We know Winn and Pages/Crooks will be in the lineup. Winn should be in the .700-.750 OPS range. Pages/Crooks in the .650 - .700 range. Scott will probably also be in center. I would hope he can get in the .650-.700 range as well next year and get around 50 stolen bases.
So we need 2 more guys for the lineup and they need to be studs. 1 Infielder and 1 outfielder. I don't think Arenado, Gorman, Walker, or Nootbaar are the answer. I think to have a great lineup we just need these two players: Whetherholt and a free agent star (or trade for a star).
Whetherholt I think will be in the .800-.850 OPS range in his first year. The free agent star needs to be an outfielder with an .850 OPS or higher and be a 30+ HR hitter. Good luck finding that. There are only 6 players in MLB with an OPS over .900 this year and 20 over .850. Not a lot of options and also Bloom probably won't be adding a big contract in his first year and a with strike on the way.
So besides Whetherholt, how are we going to get that .850+ star player that can turn our lineup into a great one?
I see only two proven 800 OPS hitters
The other 2 have never hit 800.
Yes - and only one is a "proven" .800 hitter - Contreras - and he is only at .791 right now. Herrera is at .800 for his career, which is still a small sample size at 730 PA. Arenado used to be, but is far from it today. Burleson is trending up towards .800, and Donovan was also until he got hurt.
None of these players are going to bring a significant pitcher or batter in a trade unless in a package deal. Cards need to hold on to Herrera. Contreras and Arenado will probably use their no trade clause to veto any move. Burleson and Donovan together might get you a decent starting pitcher - or one could be combined with Nootbaar, Gorman, or Walker for that kind of return.
I think Herrera will develop into a .850+ OPS player maybe starting next year.
Re: We have 4 good hitters. Looking to next year, what do we need to have a great offense?
Posted: 16 Sep 2025 14:56 pm
by JohnnyMO
Those four good hitters as 1, 2, 5, and 6 hitters plus Weatherholt in a low pressure 7 spot then defense first guys like Winn and Scott at the bottom of order. That leaves the team s really good 3 and 4 hitter short. That’s what they need, but that isn’t getting added next season. They will give Walker and Gorman more time and keep using guys in the 3 and 4 spots that should be 5 and 6 hitters
Re: We have 4 good hitters. Looking to next year, what do we need to have a great offense?
Posted: 16 Sep 2025 16:01 pm
by scoutyjones2
earp wrote: ↑16 Sep 2025 14:13 pm
We have 4 good hitters. Looking to next year:
Who do you build you winning team around?
None are worth building around, but that makes me a hater
Re: We have 4 good hitters. Looking to next year, what do we need to have a great offense?
Posted: 16 Sep 2025 16:12 pm
by icon
I don't think of Donovan as an .800 OPS guy because he has never been one.
Re: We have 4 good hitters. Looking to next year, what do we need to have a great offense?
Posted: 16 Sep 2025 17:19 pm
by Bomber1
3dender wrote: ↑16 Sep 2025 12:00 pm
I'd expect the lineup to look a lot like:
Donovan 2B/3B
Herrera LF/DH
Burleson DH/RF
Contreras 1B
Gorman DH/3B
Wetherholt 2B/3B
Winn SS
Pages/Crooks C
Scott CF
(Noot gets traded and Walker starts the year in AAA)
You can hope Wetherholt does well enough to move into the #2 slot at some point, shifting everyone else down. But expecting .800+ OPS from JJ his rookie year is setting the kid up for failure.
I hope more than Nootbaar will be traded.
I can’t see a good reason to give Gorman a spot as starter.
He has been horrid offensively and defensively.
Not saying they won’t, but they shouldn’t.
Re: We have 4 good hitters. Looking to next year, what do we need to have a great offense?
Posted: 16 Sep 2025 19:47 pm
by IndCard75
Not necessarily what I want but because of NTC and the amount of money DeWitts are willing to spend this is what I expect to happen.
C Pages Crooks
1B WC
2B Wetherholt
SS Winn
3B NA
RF Burly
CF Scott
LF Donovan
DH Herrera
Gorman DH 1B 2B 3B
Sagesse
Church
Walker AAA
Noot traded
Wetherholt and everyone else being healthy improves the offense.
Walker Gorman being replaced improves offense.
FA like Maton was in 2025 is low cost and would improve the team.
A full year of McGreevy over Fedde.
A lot of minor moves that could put us in contention for the division.
Re: We have 4 good hitters. Looking to next year, what do we need to have a great offense?
Posted: 16 Sep 2025 19:56 pm
by 11WSChamps
Kind of hard to believe there's one player in the organization another team would take for a cost-controlled MOB.
Fact is there isn't one for that commodity.
Donovan in a trade sure isn't going to bring one and a package including maybe Crooks or Bernal with Donnie isn't going to do it either.
I can see Contreras waiving his NTC if the Cardinals wish to move him. He's not getting any younger and he's probably tired of watching his younger brother make the playoffs in the same division every year.
Doyle, Matthews, and perhaps another hopeful or two become more than back end rotation fodder and then maybe you can deal from a position of strength in 2028 or 2027 if the season isn't wiped out.
The only hope of competing in the next few years is a Brewer collapse and the Cubs go back to being the Cubs.