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CardsBest wrote: ↑14 Sep 2025 22:06 pm

hugeCardfan wrote: ↑14 Sep 2025 18:51 pm

11WSChamps wrote: ↑14 Sep 2025 18:35 pm

hugeCardfan wrote: ↑14 Sep 2025 18:16 pm

CardsBest wrote: ↑14 Sep 2025 17:31 pm

hugeCardfan wrote: ↑14 Sep 2025 14:31 pm Don't forget Libby. He'll likely be more sturdy in '26. This has been the most innings for him. Looking forward to how he stands up next year.

Don’t count on Libby being better next year. There is a better chance that he regresses next year. He had his most innings pitched and wore down plus the hitters now have more of a book on him and how he likes to attack as a starter. This year he had 9.5 H/9 with 7K/9. He wasn’t missing a lot of bats and had dips in velocity. You shouldn’t expect much out of Liberatore next year. If he gives you solid #4 production and makes all his starts you would be lucky.

Man, some of you guys couldn't say anything positive about this team if your lives depended on it. Agree to disagree. He began the year attacking the hitter. He only had 2 BB's in his first 32 innings. As the season progressed that deteriorated. Let's see if he can redress that over the winter and come back ready to throw strikes. I think he'll be better.

I don't know why the ballclub wouldn't expect better things from Liberatore next season.

He'll have a full off season to condition as a starter and mentally will know exactly what his role will be and expectations that go with it.

Frankly if Liberatore isn't going to be a potential 2 or at least a three in the rotation then we've really got problems.

Yep. My thoughts too. He's no sure thing. But, if we hope to build a significant part of our rotation in house, we need for Libby to come up big.

Cards fans way over value prospects. Liberatore gave up more hits than IP, low Ks, velocity up and down, and wore down. I had others say Gorman was going to be good two years ago when I said he should be traded. I was right about Gorman and will be right about Liberatore. Liberatore will never be a #2 or #3 on a good team. At best he will be a #4 on a good team if he can even endure the long season and stay healthy. Liberatore has not proven he can even take the ball everyday in back to back seasons to make all his starts. Geez Card fans way overvalue prospects and are just wishing guys like Libby could be a #2 on a good team. LOL.

Hudson had one season where he made 30 or more starts and was good with the cards and that was at 24 his first as a starter. Wacha had one season where he made 30 or more starts and was good with the Cards and that was at 23 his second season as starter only. Flaherty had only one good season with the Cards where he pitched good and made 30 or more starts that was at 23 years old. How did Reyes who was supposed to be a top of rotation starter turnout? How about Flaherty?

Liberatore will be 26 next year and will not have as good of a season as this year. Odds are in my favor he doesn’t make 30 starts and performs better.

casey1024 wrote: ↑14 Sep 2025 10:31 am Good Sunday morning all! I've been pondering the Cards future. Here is where I am and, note to everyone.....I'm often wrong. I think these are the players positionwise that we could build a future with:
CF- I like the idea of letting Church and Scott II battle it out for this spot. I like both but am really fond of Church. He is great on D and has lightning speed. I really like his bat to ball skills and could see him in the leadoff spot someday.
LF- Burleson probably fits best here or 1B but I like the bat here. Noot would be OK here IF we could sign a premier RF in the next couple of years....otherwise...probably not.
RF- This depends on a lot. I've given up on Walker. But this spot could be a place for Rodriguez or Baez or a FA power bat.
4th or 5th OFs- Noot, Levenson, Mitchell, etc.
C-I'm high on Bernal! He has fantastic work ethic and reminds me of Salvy Perez(I know....I'm a homer)Crooks would be a nice backup.
1B- For now Contraras.....But I like Herrera's bat here. He can hit!
2B- I'm a Donavan guy......I'll leave it right there.
SS- I'm also a Winn guy......nough said
3B- Wetherholt.....I love this guy and think he has enough pop and arm to hold 3B down for years.
On the pitching side..... Gray is signed for at least the next 2 years. I'm ok with him at #3. McGreevy is a good 4 or 5. Quinn Mathews can also be a # 4 or 5. Others vying for those spots are Roby, Hjerpe, etc.
Doyle I'm counting on as at least a 2. Now we can sign an ace to round out a good rotation.
The BP will take care of itself or at least I hope.
What say the masses?

scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑14 Sep 2025 11:35 am

casey1024 wrote: ↑14 Sep 2025 10:31 am Good Sunday morning all! I've been pondering the Cards future. Here is where I am and, note to everyone.....I'm often wrong. I think these are the players positionwise that we could build a future with:
CF- I like the idea of letting Church and Scott II battle it out for this spot. I like both but am really fond of Church. He is great on D and has lightning speed. I really like his bat to ball skills and could see him in the leadoff spot someday.
LF- Burleson probably fits best here or 1B but I like the bat here. Noot would be OK here IF we could sign a premier RF in the next couple of years....otherwise...probably not.
RF- This depends on a lot. I've given up on Walker. But this spot could be a place for Rodriguez or Baez or a FA power bat.
4th or 5th OFs- Noot, Levenson, Mitchell, etc.
C-I'm high on Bernal! He has fantastic work ethic and reminds me of Salvy Perez(I know....I'm a homer)Crooks would be a nice backup.
1B- For now Contraras.....But I like Herrera's bat here. He can hit!
2B- I'm a Donavan guy......I'll leave it right there.
SS- I'm also a Winn guy......nough said
3B- Wetherholt.....I love this guy and think he has enough pop and arm to hold 3B down for years.
On the pitching side..... Gray is signed for at least the next 2 years. I'm ok with him at #3. McGreevy is a good 4 or 5. Quinn Mathews can also be a # 4 or 5. Others vying for those spots are Roby, Hjerpe, etc.
Doyle I'm counting on as at least a 2. Now we can sign an ace to round out a good rotation.
The BP will take care of itself or at least I hope.
What say the masses?

Liberatore?

CorneliusWolfe wrote: ↑15 Sep 2025 00:46 am

casey1024 wrote: ↑14 Sep 2025 10:31 am Good Sunday morning all! I've been pondering the Cards future. Here is where I am and, note to everyone.....I'm often wrong. I think these are the players positionwise that we could build a future with:
CF- I like the idea of letting Church and Scott II battle it out for this spot. I like both but am really fond of Church. He is great on D and has lightning speed. I really like his bat to ball skills and could see him in the leadoff spot someday.
LF- Burleson probably fits best here or 1B but I like the bat here. Noot would be OK here IF we could sign a premier RF in the next couple of years....otherwise...probably not.
RF- This depends on a lot. I've given up on Walker. But this spot could be a place for Rodriguez or Baez or a FA power bat.
4th or 5th OFs- Noot, Levenson, Mitchell, etc.
C-I'm high on Bernal! He has fantastic work ethic and reminds me of Salvy Perez(I know....I'm a homer)Crooks would be a nice backup.
1B- For now Contraras.....But I like Herrera's bat here. He can hit!
2B- I'm a Donavan guy......I'll leave it right there.
SS- I'm also a Winn guy......nough said
3B- Wetherholt.....I love this guy and think he has enough pop and arm to hold 3B down for years.
On the pitching side..... Gray is signed for at least the next 2 years. I'm ok with him at #3. McGreevy is a good 4 or 5. Quinn Mathews can also be a # 4 or 5. Others vying for those spots are Roby, Hjerpe, etc.
Doyle I'm counting on as at least a 2. Now we can sign an ace to round out a good rotation.
The BP will take care of itself or at least I hope.
What say the masses?

I’d say it is reasonable allocation of on-hand assets except maybe the exclusion of Liberatore.

Unfortunately, what is on-hand is not enough to build a winner or even make transformative trades.

I see a long rebuild as it will take time for future centerpieces to emerge unless a few high-impact FA’s are added to build around.

cardstatman wrote: ↑14 Sep 2025 22:33 pm 1. Better starting pitchers - stop with the Wainwright, Mikolas, Fedde Murdered Row Veterans
2. Better defense - stop with Walker, Burleson, Gorman Human Statues
3. Better speed - stop with the Burleson, Gorman, Arenado Ninja Turtles
4. Better hitting - stop with Walker, Carlson, Siani Wet Noodles

Starting Pitching has been the major problem for this new era of losing baseball 2023-25 (226-247).

ERA Starts Pitcher
3.42 21 Montgomery 6-9
3.84 23 Lynn 7-4
3.88 16 McGreevy 9-3
4.01 26 Matz 10-11 *** includes relief stats
4.14 58 Gray 26-17
4.24 30 Gibson 8-8

~4.25 League Average

4.43 20 Flaherty 7-6
4.56 44 Liberatore 13-22
4.67 30 Fedde 5-15
4.68 49 Pallante 18-23
4.97 96 Mikolas 27-34
4.98 12 Hudson 6-3
5.51 11 Thompson 5-9
6.23 8 Woodford 2-3
7.40 21 Wainwright 5-11
8.02 8 Rom 1-4

21 starts by a pitcher with an ERA in the lower 3's
39 starts by a pitcher with an ERA in the upper 3's
134 starts by a pitcher win an ERA in the lower 4's
231 starts by a pitcher with an ERA in the upper 4's
49 starts by a pitcher with an ERA in the 5's, 6's, 7's or 8's.

Othawhitemeat wrote: ↑15 Sep 2025 05:33 am

CorneliusWolfe wrote: ↑15 Sep 2025 00:46 am

casey1024 wrote: ↑14 Sep 2025 10:31 am Good Sunday morning all! I've been pondering the Cards future. Here is where I am and, note to everyone.....I'm often wrong. I think these are the players positionwise that we could build a future with:
CF- I like the idea of letting Church and Scott II battle it out for this spot. I like both but am really fond of Church. He is great on D and has lightning speed. I really like his bat to ball skills and could see him in the leadoff spot someday.
LF- Burleson probably fits best here or 1B but I like the bat here. Noot would be OK here IF we could sign a premier RF in the next couple of years....otherwise...probably not.
RF- This depends on a lot. I've given up on Walker. But this spot could be a place for Rodriguez or Baez or a FA power bat.
4th or 5th OFs- Noot, Levenson, Mitchell, etc.
C-I'm high on Bernal! He has fantastic work ethic and reminds me of Salvy Perez(I know....I'm a homer)Crooks would be a nice backup.
1B- For now Contraras.....But I like Herrera's bat here. He can hit!
2B- I'm a Donavan guy......I'll leave it right there.
SS- I'm also a Winn guy......nough said
3B- Wetherholt.....I love this guy and think he has enough pop and arm to hold 3B down for years.
On the pitching side..... Gray is signed for at least the next 2 years. I'm ok with him at #3. McGreevy is a good 4 or 5. Quinn Mathews can also be a # 4 or 5. Others vying for those spots are Roby, Hjerpe, etc.
Doyle I'm counting on as at least a 2. Now we can sign an ace to round out a good rotation.
The BP will take care of itself or at least I hope.
What say the masses?

I’d say it is reasonable allocation of on-hand assets except maybe the exclusion of Liberatore.

Unfortunately, what is on-hand is not enough to build a winner or even make transformative trades.

I see a long rebuild as it will take time for future centerpieces to emerge unless a few high-impact FA’s are added to build around.

I honestly dont see a long rebuild if DeWitt stops being greedy and invests in the team. If MLB does not go on too long of a strike and w all of the money DeWitt will have, it really depends on if he is willing to spend in 27 or 28 and if some of our prospects pan out

1) already have Winn, Donnie, Burly, Herrera as core hitters. Def possible Donnie is either traded or extended. Then 5have as prospects JJW,Rodriguez, and Baez that may or may not work out but seem to be more game changers if they do. Pitching wise, have Libby, McGreevy and possibly Matthews, Henderson, and Doyle. That is some possible depth - just need to work out.

2) as of now, w only Willson's contract and a partial to Arenado, there is a ton of cap space. We know Bloom will make some trades this offseason and I dont see any reason DeWitt cant invest some once contracts are off books and assuming some young talent is working. If we do and they work out, it could merge together well. It has to merge well but it is possible