Maton and Matz

[ScotchMIrish]

Combined 26 appearances since being traded. 19 zeroes.

Cardinals bullpen. 7 runs in the 8th, 9th and 10th.

Winning MLB games is secondary to dreaming about what prospects might someday be able to do.

as it should be when the club is hopelessly out of the race….

(third wild card notwithstanding)

On July 31 we were 55-55. Half a game ahead of the Giants who are currently half a game out of the wild card. Kind of early to dump the season.

We didn't dump because of the pen we were ready to trade. It was the rotation that couldn't help us. There was no time left to tarry, the TD was upon us. It was easily the right decision. I think the make shift pen has done a credible job. The rotation has pretty much imploded as expected.

We have learned a lot about this makeshift pen, by the way.

The rotation was bad but they were left in the games to throw too many pitches to "save" the bullpen. They need more pitching and more depth.

[jbrach]

the cards traded 3 bullpen arms..1 has been a disaster...the other 2 have been fine...the cards did the right thing and hopefully it pays off..svanson has been fantastic and he came in a deadline deal...o brien looks like a keeper...the bullpen will be fine

[hugeCardfan]

Combined 26 appearances since being traded. 19 zeroes.

Cardinals bullpen. 7 runs in the 8th, 9th and 10th.

Winning MLB games is secondary to dreaming about what prospects might someday be able to do.

as it should be when the club is hopelessly out of the race….

(third wild card notwithstanding)

On July 31 we were 55-55. Half a game ahead of the Giants who are currently half a game out of the wild card. Kind of early to dump the season.

We didn't dump because of the pen we were ready to trade. It was the rotation that couldn't help us. There was no time left to tarry, the TD was upon us. It was easily the right decision. I think the make shift pen has done a credible job. The rotation has pretty much imploded as expected.

We have learned a lot about this makeshift pen, by the way.

The rotation was bad but they were left in the games to throw too many pitches to "save" the bullpen. They need more pitching and more depth.

Which begs the question, why lament the TD trades? None of the 3 would be here next year and hopefully some of the acquisitions will fit in in the future.

[hugeCardfan]

the cards traded 3 bullpen arms..1 has been a disaster...the other 2 have been fine...the cards did the right thing and hopefully it pays off..svanson has been fantastic and he came in a deadline deal...o brien looks like a keeper...the bullpen will be fine

+

[Carp4Cy]

Yes, after waiting too long to sell Goldy and Arenado I was really hoping they would keep waiting and get nothing for Helsley and the ever outstanding Steven Matz too.

Let’s keep this road to nowhere act going as long as possible. The fans are obviously on board based on attendance, which was excellent up to July 31st….

You can hold onto them and get nothing, or you can trade them and get what very well may amount to nothing at the major league level some day.

If you hold on, there may well be a better chance of surprising and winning some playoff games than there is that a 245th ranked prospect turns into an MVP


I mean, if we were determined to move them and we definitely did not want to re-sign them for next year, we should have at least bundled them together for a controlled player already producing positive war in the major leagues at a position we need. Maybe a 3 way trade.

[ScotchMIrish]

Combined 26 appearances since being traded. 19 zeroes.

Cardinals bullpen. 7 runs in the 8th, 9th and 10th.

Winning MLB games is secondary to dreaming about what prospects might someday be able to do.

as it should be when the club is hopelessly out of the race….

(third wild card notwithstanding)

On July 31 we were 55-55. Half a game ahead of the Giants who are currently half a game out of the wild card. Kind of early to dump the season.

We didn't dump because of the pen we were ready to trade. It was the rotation that couldn't help us. There was no time left to tarry, the TD was upon us. It was easily the right decision. I think the make shift pen has done a credible job. The rotation has pretty much imploded as expected.

We have learned a lot about this makeshift pen, by the way.

The rotation was bad but they were left in the games to throw too many pitches to "save" the bullpen. They need more pitching and more depth.

Which begs the question, why lament the TD trades? None of the 3 would be here next year and hopefully some of the acquisitions will fit in in the future.

We were in contention for a wild card when Bloom threw in the towel. That's what I'm pointing out. It's as if Bloom wanted a disaster this season so whatever happens next season looks better.

[3dender]

There are people who have watched this team the last week as they played with a complete absence of urgency while the WC position was being fumbled up for grabs... watched a parade of pop-ups and K's with RISP and bases loaded... and STILL think they should have gone for it at the deadline?

We do not gaze upon the same reality...

[renostl]

Combined 26 appearances since being traded. 19 zeroes.

Cardinals bullpen. 7 runs in the 8th, 9th and 10th.

Winning MLB games is secondary to dreaming about what prospects might someday be able to do.

as it should be when the club is hopelessly out of the race….

(third wild card notwithstanding)

On July 31 we were 55-55. Half a game ahead of the Giants who are currently half a game out of the wild card. Kind of early to dump the season.

We didn't dump because of the pen we were ready to trade. It was the rotation that couldn't help us. There was no time left to tarry, the TD was upon us. It was easily the right decision. I think the make shift pen has done a credible job. The rotation has pretty much imploded as expected.

We have learned a lot about this makeshift pen, by the way.

The rotation was bad but they were left in the games to throw too many pitches to "save" the bullpen. They need more pitching and more depth.

Which begs the question, why lament the TD trades? None of the 3 would be here next year and hopefully some of the acquisitions will fit in in the future.

We were in contention for a wild card when Bloom threw in the towel. That's what I'm pointing out. It's as if Bloom wanted a disaster this season so whatever happens next season looks better.

The thought on competing is fine, I just don't think keeping a few RP's get you there.
They would have had to add and sit at least a couple on the "runway guys"
The BP has ranked better vs league averages than any other aspect of the team.

[ClassicO]

The Cards are free to sign both Maton and Matz if they wish this offseason. There was ZERO downside to trading them at the deadline.

+1. There should be no arguments about the trades?

[ScotchMIrish]

Combined 26 appearances since being traded. 19 zeroes.

Cardinals bullpen. 7 runs in the 8th, 9th and 10th.

Winning MLB games is secondary to dreaming about what prospects might someday be able to do.

as it should be when the club is hopelessly out of the race….

(third wild card notwithstanding)

On July 31 we were 55-55. Half a game ahead of the Giants who are currently half a game out of the wild card. Kind of early to dump the season.

We didn't dump because of the pen we were ready to trade. It was the rotation that couldn't help us. There was no time left to tarry, the TD was upon us. It was easily the right decision. I think the make shift pen has done a credible job. The rotation has pretty much imploded as expected.

We have learned a lot about this makeshift pen, by the way.

The rotation was bad but they were left in the games to throw too many pitches to "save" the bullpen. They need more pitching and more depth.

Which begs the question, why lament the TD trades? None of the 3 would be here next year and hopefully some of the acquisitions will fit in in the future.

We were in contention for a wild card when Bloom threw in the towel. That's what I'm pointing out. It's as if Bloom wanted a disaster this season so whatever happens next season looks better.

The thought on competing is fine, I just don't think keeping a few RP's get you there.
They would have had to add and sit at least a couple on the "runway guys"
The BP has ranked better vs league averages than any other aspect of the team.

The team is in need of pitching. We traded 3 pitchers away.

[renostl]

Combined 26 appearances since being traded. 19 zeroes.

Cardinals bullpen. 7 runs in the 8th, 9th and 10th.

Winning MLB games is secondary to dreaming about what prospects might someday be able to do.

as it should be when the club is hopelessly out of the race….

(third wild card notwithstanding)

On July 31 we were 55-55. Half a game ahead of the Giants who are currently half a game out of the wild card. Kind of early to dump the season.

We didn't dump because of the pen we were ready to trade. It was the rotation that couldn't help us. There was no time left to tarry, the TD was upon us. It was easily the right decision. I think the make shift pen has done a credible job. The rotation has pretty much imploded as expected.

We have learned a lot about this makeshift pen, by the way.

The rotation was bad but they were left in the games to throw too many pitches to "save" the bullpen. They need more pitching and more depth.

Which begs the question, why lament the TD trades? None of the 3 would be here next year and hopefully some of the acquisitions will fit in in the future.

We were in contention for a wild card when Bloom threw in the towel. That's what I'm pointing out. It's as if Bloom wanted a disaster this season so whatever happens next season looks better.

The thought on competing is fine, I just don't think keeping a few RP's get you there.
They would have had to add and sit at least a couple on the "runway guys"
The BP has ranked better vs league averages than any other aspect of the team.

The team is in need of pitching. We traded 3 pitchers away.

The team is also in need of hitting. 4.28 R/G 4th worst in SLG, 5th worst in OPS, 4th worst in TB, almost 400 bases behind the NYY.
The 3 average RP don't close that gap. Again, I totally agree with competing ever year. There are exceptions though, exceptions that
no team should frequent. I should be a rare event, IMO.

The team was in need of better SP's. Who were they trading for or buying?

What they traded away was RH who would have lost some games here, Mostly hindsight but his time here was not strong this season. Some suggested a trade this past off season, and not a part of '26. Matz who arguably should have won a rotation spot but most here would call his Cardinal contract and even being here as a GM error, also not a '26 player. Maton, a vet BP piece having one of his best seasons in his career. A almost perfect
sign and trade player. Although the 2 pitchers they received for him are currently lottery tickets.

[ecleme22]

Combined 26 appearances since being traded. 19 zeroes.

Cardinals bullpen. 7 runs in the 8th, 9th and 10th.

Winning MLB games is secondary to dreaming about what prospects might someday be able to do.

as it should be when the club is hopelessly out of the race….

(third wild card notwithstanding)

On July 31 we were 55-55. Half a game ahead of the Giants who are currently half a game out of the wild card. Kind of early to dump the season.

We didn't dump because of the pen we were ready to trade. It was the rotation that couldn't help us. There was no time left to tarry, the TD was upon us. It was easily the right decision. I think the make shift pen has done a credible job. The rotation has pretty much imploded as expected.

We have learned a lot about this makeshift pen, by the way.

The rotation was bad but they were left in the games to throw too many pitches to "save" the bullpen. They need more pitching and more depth.

Which begs the question, why lament the TD trades? None of the 3 would be here next year and hopefully some of the acquisitions will fit in in the future.

We were in contention for a wild card when Bloom threw in the towel. That's what I'm pointing out. It's as if Bloom wanted a disaster this season so whatever happens next season looks better.

The thought on competing is fine, I just don't think keeping a few RP's get you there.
They would have had to add and sit at least a couple on the "runway guys"
The BP has ranked better vs league averages than any other aspect of the team.

The team is in need of pitching. We traded 3 pitchers away.

Because the team were sellers at the deadline...

[Barksdale's People]

Yes, after waiting too long to sell Goldy and Arenado I was really hoping they would keep waiting and get nothing for Helsley and the ever outstanding Steven Matz too.

Let’s keep this road to nowhere act going as long as possible. The fans are obviously on board based on attendance, which was excellent up to July 31st….

You can hold onto them and get nothing, or you can trade them and get what very well may amount to nothing at the major league level some day.

If you hold on, there may well be a better chance of surprising and winning some playoff games than there is that a 245th ranked prospect turns into an MVP


I mean, if we were determined to move them and we definitely did not want to re-sign them for next year, we should have at least bundled them together for a controlled player already producing positive war in the major leagues at a position we need. Maybe a 3 way trade.

Yes, and there is also a chance they don’t make the playoffs or have the lotto ticket prospects so this talent erosion continues on down the line into next year and the year after and… Hypotheticals are fun.

And oh yea there is that whole thing where the Giants, mentioned here by the OP as an example of what could have been, SOLD at the deadline. They aren’t where they are because they held strong, they are there because their replacements have filled the gaps and the core of their team is strong enough to contend. There is no reason that couldn’t have been true of the Cardinals, but it’s not.

Turn the page and do better next year. This is basic strategy and it couldn’t be easier to understand. If you disagree great, opinions are allowed. But I’m more a know when to hold em and know when to fold em guy. And the Cardinals play post deadline couldn’t have made it any clearer that folding was the right play.

[Carp4Cy]

Yes, after waiting too long to sell Goldy and Arenado I was really hoping they would keep waiting and get nothing for Helsley and the ever outstanding Steven Matz too.

Let’s keep this road to nowhere act going as long as possible. The fans are obviously on board based on attendance, which was excellent up to July 31st….

You can hold onto them and get nothing, or you can trade them and get what very well may amount to nothing at the major league level some day.

If you hold on, there may well be a better chance of surprising and winning some playoff games than there is that a 245th ranked prospect turns into an MVP


I mean, if we were determined to move them and we definitely did not want to re-sign them for next year, we should have at least bundled them together for a controlled player already producing positive war in the major leagues at a position we need. Maybe a 3 way trade.

Yes, and there is also a chance they don’t make the playoffs or have the lotto ticket prospects so this talent erosion continues on down the line into next year and the year after and… Hypotheticals are fun.

And oh yea there is that whole thing where the Giants, mentioned here by the OP as an example of what could have been, SOLD at the deadline. They aren’t where they are because they held strong, they are there because their replacements have filled the gaps and the core of their team is strong enough to contend. There is no reason that couldn’t have been true of the Cardinals, but it’s not.

Turn the page and do better next year. This is basic strategy and it couldn’t be easier to understand. If you disagree great, opinions are allowed. But I’m more a know when to hold em and know when to fold em guy. And the Cardinals play post deadline couldn’t have made it any clearer that folding was the right play.

two things -
1. we could have and should have brought up JJW. He has a much higher ceiling and probably could have produced much more than whoever got pushed off the roster/lineup: Fermin etc.
2. Even if folding is technically the "right' decision, I feel like its a very low impact decision in this case. Like, a bucket of balls is worth more than letting them walk for nothing level impact.

Sometimes I've stayed in a losing hand just to see the other guy's cards because it would only cost me 50 cents of chips. And that's ok with me when the opportunity cost is so low.

[Barksdale's People]

Yes, after waiting too long to sell Goldy and Arenado I was really hoping they would keep waiting and get nothing for Helsley and the ever outstanding Steven Matz too.

Let’s keep this road to nowhere act going as long as possible. The fans are obviously on board based on attendance, which was excellent up to July 31st….

You can hold onto them and get nothing, or you can trade them and get what very well may amount to nothing at the major league level some day.

If you hold on, there may well be a better chance of surprising and winning some playoff games than there is that a 245th ranked prospect turns into an MVP


I mean, if we were determined to move them and we definitely did not want to re-sign them for next year, we should have at least bundled them together for a controlled player already producing positive war in the major leagues at a position we need. Maybe a 3 way trade.

Yes, and there is also a chance they don’t make the playoffs or have the lotto ticket prospects so this talent erosion continues on down the line into next year and the year after and… Hypotheticals are fun.

And oh yea there is that whole thing where the Giants, mentioned here by the OP as an example of what could have been, SOLD at the deadline. They aren’t where they are because they held strong, they are there because their replacements have filled the gaps and the core of their team is strong enough to contend. There is no reason that couldn’t have been true of the Cardinals, but it’s not.

Turn the page and do better next year. This is basic strategy and it couldn’t be easier to understand. If you disagree great, opinions are allowed. But I’m more a know when to hold em and know when to fold em guy. And the Cardinals play post deadline couldn’t have made it any clearer that folding was the right play.

two things -
1. we could have and should have brought up JJW. He has a much higher ceiling and probably could have produced much more than whoever got pushed off the roster/lineup: Fermin etc.
2. Even if folding is technically the "right' decision, I feel like its a very low impact decision in this case. Like, a bucket of balls is worth more than letting them walk for nothing level impact.

Sometimes I've stayed in a losing hand just to see the other guy's cards because it would only cost me 50 cents of chips. And that's ok with me when the opportunity cost is so low.

I don’t disagree on either point. But I would add that keeping Maton and Matz is also low impact. You could talk me into the Cardinals having one extra win at the end of the year had they kept those two. And 80 wins vs. 79 doesn’t do much for me.

The Cardinals are going to miss the playoffs because their young players haven’t taken the “next step” we needed them to, not because they traded 35 innings worth of middle relief.

[Carp4Cy]

Yes, after waiting too long to sell Goldy and Arenado I was really hoping they would keep waiting and get nothing for Helsley and the ever outstanding Steven Matz too.

Let’s keep this road to nowhere act going as long as possible. The fans are obviously on board based on attendance, which was excellent up to July 31st….

You can hold onto them and get nothing, or you can trade them and get what very well may amount to nothing at the major league level some day.

If you hold on, there may well be a better chance of surprising and winning some playoff games than there is that a 245th ranked prospect turns into an MVP


I mean, if we were determined to move them and we definitely did not want to re-sign them for next year, we should have at least bundled them together for a controlled player already producing positive war in the major leagues at a position we need. Maybe a 3 way trade.

Yes, and there is also a chance they don’t make the playoffs or have the lotto ticket prospects so this talent erosion continues on down the line into next year and the year after and… Hypotheticals are fun.

And oh yea there is that whole thing where the Giants, mentioned here by the OP as an example of what could have been, SOLD at the deadline. They aren’t where they are because they held strong, they are there because their replacements have filled the gaps and the core of their team is strong enough to contend. There is no reason that couldn’t have been true of the Cardinals, but it’s not.

Turn the page and do better next year. This is basic strategy and it couldn’t be easier to understand. If you disagree great, opinions are allowed. But I’m more a know when to hold em and know when to fold em guy. And the Cardinals play post deadline couldn’t have made it any clearer that folding was the right play.

two things -
1. we could have and should have brought up JJW. He has a much higher ceiling and probably could have produced much more than whoever got pushed off the roster/lineup: Fermin etc.
2. Even if folding is technically the "right' decision, I feel like its a very low impact decision in this case. Like, a bucket of balls is worth more than letting them walk for nothing level impact.

Sometimes I've stayed in a losing hand just to see the other guy's cards because it would only cost me 50 cents of chips. And that's ok with me when the opportunity cost is so low.

I don’t disagree on either point. But I would add that keeping Maton and Matz is also low impact. You could talk me into the Cardinals having one extra win at the end of the year had they kept those two. And 80 wins vs. 79 doesn’t do much for me.

The Cardinals are going to miss the playoffs because their young players haven’t taken the “next step” we needed them to, not because they traded 35 innings worth of middle relief.

That's fair, though if we had also done #1 and he'd stayed hot, maybe we are talking about 84 wins vs 83 and the differnce of making the playoffs.