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Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑31 Aug 2025 23:37 pm

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑31 Aug 2025 23:22 pm

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑31 Aug 2025 23:15 pm

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑31 Aug 2025 23:11 pm

Banner29 wrote: ↑31 Aug 2025 20:49 pm

alw80 wrote: ↑31 Aug 2025 20:10 pm Which, honestly, was expected to be the case.

I think in the case of Walker, Gorman, Winn, and Noot we were expecting to see more progress. But as of now they all don’t inspire much hope

This is a massive problem for a reset that is hoping to rebuild internally. If you cant develop a MVP level talent and/or multiple all stars, and if we aren't willing to spend 200M on other team's developed talent, there is no realistic path to winning ~100 games and seriously competing at the level we want to year after year. Just a bucket of "average" hitters and one or two below average mixed in doesn't get us there. Not even close.

Well hopefully fixes the development system that Mo ruined and they can start producing quality players again. That’s the only way the cardinals will get better again then once it starts producing then they can spend money to fill in the gaps with good veterans

We keep hearing "fix the development". Well Bloom has been here 2 full seasons now and was supposedly focused on fixing the MILB development from the start. That's longer than some of our prospects have even been in the minors. Hope it doesn't take much longer to start seeing proof that its been successful and not just more smoke and mirrors.

lol you think an entire development system could be both fixed and be churning out quality prospects in just two seasons? That’s crazy he had to evaluate and see just exactly where the problems were who was worth keeping who to fire who to bring in then he had to go out and find those people and try to bring them in then they have to work with the players coming in. It took mo years to destroy but you think it could be fixed and be churning out good prospects in just two season

As has been pointed out before, teams like Houston (avg. 64 wins from 2009-2014), Philadelphia (avg. 69 wins from 2013-2017), Atlanta (avg. 72 wins from 2014-2017), etc. can take 4, 5, 6 years to rebuild.

Rojo Johnson wrote: ↑31 Aug 2025 22:36 pm

hugeCardfan wrote: ↑31 Aug 2025 20:43 pm The young bats are young. There are different momentum’s as well. I think some will work out. Some won’t. Next year will tell us more.

So, we’re gonna do the runway again next year? Like, we won’t know enough about the Spare Squad to throw in the towel in ’26 on a bunch of them? We have to watch them AGAIN? (drat).

Do you really think that’s gonna happen? With the arrival of JJ and the, let’s say emergence of Church, the growth of Gorman, others will fall by the wayside… I see Scott hitting in .710-30 range next year as a 4th OF and sooner or later traded to make space for Josh Baez. Crooks will push Pozo and Pages out.

I think Winn had a sophomore season and hits high .700 OPS next year.

There is no room for stagnancy. This team scores enough runs for quality pitching to win games. We need the emergence of Mathews and a decent FA addition. This team isn’t that far from respectability.

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑01 Sep 2025 05:15 am

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑31 Aug 2025 23:37 pm

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑31 Aug 2025 23:22 pm

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑31 Aug 2025 23:15 pm

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑31 Aug 2025 23:11 pm

Banner29 wrote: ↑31 Aug 2025 20:49 pm

alw80 wrote: ↑31 Aug 2025 20:10 pm Which, honestly, was expected to be the case.

I think in the case of Walker, Gorman, Winn, and Noot we were expecting to see more progress. But as of now they all don’t inspire much hope

This is a massive problem for a reset that is hoping to rebuild internally. If you cant develop a MVP level talent and/or multiple all stars, and if we aren't willing to spend 200M on other team's developed talent, there is no realistic path to winning ~100 games and seriously competing at the level we want to year after year. Just a bucket of "average" hitters and one or two below average mixed in doesn't get us there. Not even close.

Well hopefully fixes the development system that Mo ruined and they can start producing quality players again. That’s the only way the cardinals will get better again then once it starts producing then they can spend money to fill in the gaps with good veterans

We keep hearing "fix the development". Well Bloom has been here 2 full seasons now and was supposedly focused on fixing the MILB development from the start. That's longer than some of our prospects have even been in the minors. Hope it doesn't take much longer to start seeing proof that its been successful and not just more smoke and mirrors.

lol you think an entire development system could be both fixed and be churning out quality prospects in just two seasons? That’s crazy he had to evaluate and see just exactly where the problems were who was worth keeping who to fire who to bring in then he had to go out and find those people and try to bring them in then they have to work with the players coming in. It took mo years to destroy but you think it could be fixed and be churning out good prospects in just two season

As has been pointed out before, teams like Houston (avg. 64 wins from 2009-2014), Philadelphia (avg. 69 wins from 2013-2017), Atlanta (avg. 72 wins from 2014-2017), etc. can take 4, 5, 6 years to rebuild.

If Cardinal fans endured those prolonged losing averages, there’d be blood in the streets.

hugeCardfan wrote: ↑01 Sep 2025 06:04 am

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑01 Sep 2025 05:15 am

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑31 Aug 2025 23:37 pm

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑31 Aug 2025 23:22 pm

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑31 Aug 2025 23:15 pm

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑31 Aug 2025 23:11 pm

Banner29 wrote: ↑31 Aug 2025 20:49 pm

alw80 wrote: ↑31 Aug 2025 20:10 pm Which, honestly, was expected to be the case.

I think in the case of Walker, Gorman, Winn, and Noot we were expecting to see more progress. But as of now they all don’t inspire much hope

This is a massive problem for a reset that is hoping to rebuild internally. If you cant develop a MVP level talent and/or multiple all stars, and if we aren't willing to spend 200M on other team's developed talent, there is no realistic path to winning ~100 games and seriously competing at the level we want to year after year. Just a bucket of "average" hitters and one or two below average mixed in doesn't get us there. Not even close.

Well hopefully fixes the development system that Mo ruined and they can start producing quality players again. That’s the only way the cardinals will get better again then once it starts producing then they can spend money to fill in the gaps with good veterans

We keep hearing "fix the development". Well Bloom has been here 2 full seasons now and was supposedly focused on fixing the MILB development from the start. That's longer than some of our prospects have even been in the minors. Hope it doesn't take much longer to start seeing proof that its been successful and not just more smoke and mirrors.

lol you think an entire development system could be both fixed and be churning out quality prospects in just two seasons? That’s crazy he had to evaluate and see just exactly where the problems were who was worth keeping who to fire who to bring in then he had to go out and find those people and try to bring them in then they have to work with the players coming in. It took mo years to destroy but you think it could be fixed and be churning out good prospects in just two season

As has been pointed out before, teams like Houston (avg. 64 wins from 2009-2014), Philadelphia (avg. 69 wins from 2013-2017), Atlanta (avg. 72 wins from 2014-2017), etc. can take 4, 5, 6 years to rebuild.

If Cardinal fans endured those prolonged losing averages, there’d be blood in the streets.

Thanks, Huge. Was just gonna say that five-year shiitake mushroom wouldn't fly here.

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑31 Aug 2025 23:22 pm

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑31 Aug 2025 23:15 pm

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑31 Aug 2025 23:11 pm

Banner29 wrote: ↑31 Aug 2025 20:49 pm

alw80 wrote: ↑31 Aug 2025 20:10 pm Which, honestly, was expected to be the case.

I think in the case of Walker, Gorman, Winn, and Noot we were expecting to see more progress. But as of now they all don’t inspire much hope

This is a massive problem for a reset that is hoping to rebuild internally. If you cant develop a MVP level talent and/or multiple all stars, and if we aren't willing to spend 200M on other team's developed talent, there is no realistic path to winning ~100 games and seriously competing at the level we want to year after year. Just a bucket of "average" hitters and one or two below average mixed in doesn't get us there. Not even close.

Well hopefully fixes the development system that Mo ruined and they can start producing quality players again. That’s the only way the cardinals will get better again then once it starts producing then they can spend money to fill in the gaps with good veterans

We keep hearing "fix the development". Well Bloom has been here 2 full seasons now and was supposedly focused on fixing the MILB development from the start. That's longer than some of our prospects have even been in the minors. Hope it doesn't take much longer to start seeing proof that its been successful and not just more smoke and mirrors.

This is an iconic post. Bloom isn't even acting pobo and is expected to have fixed a rotted developement system and be churning out ML talent by now. I understand the frustration I really do. But at least give the guy a couple years or more to get this thing up and running again. That's what it takes. Read Mattmitch's post. My advice if you are truly a fan, is study the minor league system and players. Follow the draft and drafted players. Find another avenue to enjoy the game while the Major League team heals. If they get the system running than refuse to plug the holes with strategic spending, than I will join you in tar and feathering them.

hugeCardfan wrote: ↑01 Sep 2025 06:04 am

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑01 Sep 2025 05:15 am

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑31 Aug 2025 23:37 pm

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑31 Aug 2025 23:22 pm

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑31 Aug 2025 23:15 pm

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑31 Aug 2025 23:11 pm

Banner29 wrote: ↑31 Aug 2025 20:49 pm

alw80 wrote: ↑31 Aug 2025 20:10 pm Which, honestly, was expected to be the case.

I think in the case of Walker, Gorman, Winn, and Noot we were expecting to see more progress. But as of now they all don’t inspire much hope

This is a massive problem for a reset that is hoping to rebuild internally. If you cant develop a MVP level talent and/or multiple all stars, and if we aren't willing to spend 200M on other team's developed talent, there is no realistic path to winning ~100 games and seriously competing at the level we want to year after year. Just a bucket of "average" hitters and one or two below average mixed in doesn't get us there. Not even close.

Well hopefully fixes the development system that Mo ruined and they can start producing quality players again. That’s the only way the cardinals will get better again then once it starts producing then they can spend money to fill in the gaps with good veterans

We keep hearing "fix the development". Well Bloom has been here 2 full seasons now and was supposedly focused on fixing the MILB development from the start. That's longer than some of our prospects have even been in the minors. Hope it doesn't take much longer to start seeing proof that its been successful and not just more smoke and mirrors.

lol you think an entire development system could be both fixed and be churning out quality prospects in just two seasons? That’s crazy he had to evaluate and see just exactly where the problems were who was worth keeping who to fire who to bring in then he had to go out and find those people and try to bring them in then they have to work with the players coming in. It took mo years to destroy but you think it could be fixed and be churning out good prospects in just two season

As has been pointed out before, teams like Houston (avg. 64 wins from 2009-2014), Philadelphia (avg. 69 wins from 2013-2017), Atlanta (avg. 72 wins from 2014-2017), etc. can take 4, 5, 6 years to rebuild.

If Cardinal fans endured those prolonged losing averages, there’d be blood in the streets.

The Cardinals aren't going to be an exception to the realities of baseball in the 21st century.

This is the cost of the Cardinals prolonged two decade run of a pretty high level of success. They kept trying to prolong it by trading prospects (e.g., Gallen, Alcantara, etc.) for ML players (as well as poor extensions and FA signings) and it has caught up to them.

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑01 Sep 2025 06:28 am

hugeCardfan wrote: ↑01 Sep 2025 06:04 am

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑01 Sep 2025 05:15 am

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑31 Aug 2025 23:37 pm

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑31 Aug 2025 23:22 pm

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑31 Aug 2025 23:15 pm

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑31 Aug 2025 23:11 pm

Banner29 wrote: ↑31 Aug 2025 20:49 pm

alw80 wrote: ↑31 Aug 2025 20:10 pm Which, honestly, was expected to be the case.

I think in the case of Walker, Gorman, Winn, and Noot we were expecting to see more progress. But as of now they all don’t inspire much hope

This is a massive problem for a reset that is hoping to rebuild internally. If you cant develop a MVP level talent and/or multiple all stars, and if we aren't willing to spend 200M on other team's developed talent, there is no realistic path to winning ~100 games and seriously competing at the level we want to year after year. Just a bucket of "average" hitters and one or two below average mixed in doesn't get us there. Not even close.

Well hopefully fixes the development system that Mo ruined and they can start producing quality players again. That’s the only way the cardinals will get better again then once it starts producing then they can spend money to fill in the gaps with good veterans

We keep hearing "fix the development". Well Bloom has been here 2 full seasons now and was supposedly focused on fixing the MILB development from the start. That's longer than some of our prospects have even been in the minors. Hope it doesn't take much longer to start seeing proof that its been successful and not just more smoke and mirrors.

lol you think an entire development system could be both fixed and be churning out quality prospects in just two seasons? That’s crazy he had to evaluate and see just exactly where the problems were who was worth keeping who to fire who to bring in then he had to go out and find those people and try to bring them in then they have to work with the players coming in. It took mo years to destroy but you think it could be fixed and be churning out good prospects in just two season

As has been pointed out before, teams like Houston (avg. 64 wins from 2009-2014), Philadelphia (avg. 69 wins from 2013-2017), Atlanta (avg. 72 wins from 2014-2017), etc. can take 4, 5, 6 years to rebuild.

If Cardinal fans endured those prolonged losing averages, there’d be blood in the streets.

The Cardinals aren't going to be an exception to the realities of baseball in the 21st century.

This is the cost of the Cardinals prolonged two decade run of a pretty high level of success. They kept trying to prolong it by trading prospects (e.g., Gallen, Alcantara, etc.) for ML players (as well as poor extensions and FA signings) and it has caught up to them.

Ancient history Matt. We don’t even have one 60 win season this century and I see little danger of one any time soon. The architect of that folly is effectively gone and we are on a new course. I don’t see us mired in your dark scenario. Our farm is top 3d and focused. Pitching is on the way wait as are position players. A couple good FA adds and a good trade dissembles the darkness.

hugeCardfan wrote: ↑01 Sep 2025 07:28 am

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑01 Sep 2025 06:28 am

hugeCardfan wrote: ↑01 Sep 2025 06:04 am

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑01 Sep 2025 05:15 am

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑31 Aug 2025 23:37 pm

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑31 Aug 2025 23:22 pm

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑31 Aug 2025 23:15 pm

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑31 Aug 2025 23:11 pm

Banner29 wrote: ↑31 Aug 2025 20:49 pm

alw80 wrote: ↑31 Aug 2025 20:10 pm Which, honestly, was expected to be the case.

I think in the case of Walker, Gorman, Winn, and Noot we were expecting to see more progress. But as of now they all don’t inspire much hope

This is a massive problem for a reset that is hoping to rebuild internally. If you cant develop a MVP level talent and/or multiple all stars, and if we aren't willing to spend 200M on other team's developed talent, there is no realistic path to winning ~100 games and seriously competing at the level we want to year after year. Just a bucket of "average" hitters and one or two below average mixed in doesn't get us there. Not even close.

Well hopefully fixes the development system that Mo ruined and they can start producing quality players again. That’s the only way the cardinals will get better again then once it starts producing then they can spend money to fill in the gaps with good veterans

We keep hearing "fix the development". Well Bloom has been here 2 full seasons now and was supposedly focused on fixing the MILB development from the start. That's longer than some of our prospects have even been in the minors. Hope it doesn't take much longer to start seeing proof that its been successful and not just more smoke and mirrors.

lol you think an entire development system could be both fixed and be churning out quality prospects in just two seasons? That’s crazy he had to evaluate and see just exactly where the problems were who was worth keeping who to fire who to bring in then he had to go out and find those people and try to bring them in then they have to work with the players coming in. It took mo years to destroy but you think it could be fixed and be churning out good prospects in just two season

As has been pointed out before, teams like Houston (avg. 64 wins from 2009-2014), Philadelphia (avg. 69 wins from 2013-2017), Atlanta (avg. 72 wins from 2014-2017), etc. can take 4, 5, 6 years to rebuild.

If Cardinal fans endured those prolonged losing averages, there’d be blood in the streets.

The Cardinals aren't going to be an exception to the realities of baseball in the 21st century.

This is the cost of the Cardinals prolonged two decade run of a pretty high level of success. They kept trying to prolong it by trading prospects (e.g., Gallen, Alcantara, etc.) for ML players (as well as poor extensions and FA signings) and it has caught up to them.

Ancient history Matt. We don’t even have one 60 win season this century and I see little danger of one any time soon. The architect of that folly is effectively gone and we are on a new course. I don’t see us mired in your dark scenario. Our farm is top 3d and focused. Pitching is on the way wait as are position players. A couple good FA adds and a good trade dissembles the darkness.

I won't be surprised if it at least "Atlanta-like", where the Cardinals average somewhere in the 70s in terms of wins for 2024-2027/2028 (four or five seasons), before the farm system can deliver enough talent to shape out the ML roster to the point where it makes sense to start adding significantly from outside the organization.

At best I think the Cardinals are halfway through your "period of darkness", and maybe more like 2/5ths.

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑01 Sep 2025 07:33 am

hugeCardfan wrote: ↑01 Sep 2025 07:28 am

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑01 Sep 2025 06:28 am

hugeCardfan wrote: ↑01 Sep 2025 06:04 am

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑01 Sep 2025 05:15 am

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑31 Aug 2025 23:37 pm

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑31 Aug 2025 23:22 pm

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑31 Aug 2025 23:15 pm

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑31 Aug 2025 23:11 pm

Banner29 wrote: ↑31 Aug 2025 20:49 pm

alw80 wrote: ↑31 Aug 2025 20:10 pm Which, honestly, was expected to be the case.

I think in the case of Walker, Gorman, Winn, and Noot we were expecting to see more progress. But as of now they all don’t inspire much hope

This is a massive problem for a reset that is hoping to rebuild internally. If you cant develop a MVP level talent and/or multiple all stars, and if we aren't willing to spend 200M on other team's developed talent, there is no realistic path to winning ~100 games and seriously competing at the level we want to year after year. Just a bucket of "average" hitters and one or two below average mixed in doesn't get us there. Not even close.

Well hopefully fixes the development system that Mo ruined and they can start producing quality players again. That’s the only way the cardinals will get better again then once it starts producing then they can spend money to fill in the gaps with good veterans

We keep hearing "fix the development". Well Bloom has been here 2 full seasons now and was supposedly focused on fixing the MILB development from the start. That's longer than some of our prospects have even been in the minors. Hope it doesn't take much longer to start seeing proof that its been successful and not just more smoke and mirrors.

lol you think an entire development system could be both fixed and be churning out quality prospects in just two seasons? That’s crazy he had to evaluate and see just exactly where the problems were who was worth keeping who to fire who to bring in then he had to go out and find those people and try to bring them in then they have to work with the players coming in. It took mo years to destroy but you think it could be fixed and be churning out good prospects in just two season

As has been pointed out before, teams like Houston (avg. 64 wins from 2009-2014), Philadelphia (avg. 69 wins from 2013-2017), Atlanta (avg. 72 wins from 2014-2017), etc. can take 4, 5, 6 years to rebuild.

If Cardinal fans endured those prolonged losing averages, there’d be blood in the streets.

The Cardinals aren't going to be an exception to the realities of baseball in the 21st century.

This is the cost of the Cardinals prolonged two decade run of a pretty high level of success. They kept trying to prolong it by trading prospects (e.g., Gallen, Alcantara, etc.) for ML players (as well as poor extensions and FA signings) and it has caught up to them.

Ancient history Matt. We don’t even have one 60 win season this century and I see little danger of one any time soon. The architect of that folly is effectively gone and we are on a new course. I don’t see us mired in your dark scenario. Our farm is top 3d and focused. Pitching is on the way wait as are position players. A couple good FA adds and a good trade dissembles the darkness.

I won't be surprised if it at least "Atlanta-like", where the Cardinals average somewhere in the 70s in terms of wins for 2024-2027/2028 (four or five seasons), before the farm system can deliver enough talent to shape out the ML roster to the point where it makes sense to start adding significantly from outside the organization.

At best I think the Cardinals are halfway through your "period of darkness", and maybe more like 2/5ths.

Not my period of darkness, Matt, yours. Pitching will determine how long it takes to break free. My eternal optimism disabuses the notion of years of subpar. I think we settle in the 80 wins a year or two before challenging the division and making a mark in the postseason.

Youboughtit wrote: ↑31 Aug 2025 21:06 pm

CardsBest wrote: ↑31 Aug 2025 20:01 pm Cardinals have had many young bats not perform well. Winn, Walker, Gorman, Noot, Scott, Pages were supposed to be primary starters or did start several games. Saggaese was supposed to be a good prospect received in trade. Church had good season in minors. Still small sample for Church and Saggese. Cards cant live with that many unproven bats in the lineup and expect to ever be a good team.

Winn .681 OPS great D but bat has been below average
Walker .595 OPS high Ks
Pages .654 OPS .228 AVG
Noot .717 OPS .239 AVG
Gorman .719 OPS .217 AVG high Ks
Saggese .626 OPS
Scott .623 OPS .223 AVG hit collector
Church .390 OPS

The Cardinals entered a rebuild with the 23rd rank farm system. Top 10 now only because of Wetherholt Doyle and 14 5 year rule 5 eligible players. What did you evpect? It’s going to get worse before better and a huge FA spree is the only way. These players have no trade value and a roster of 26 home grown player with multiple all stars is impossible

The biggest problem is these guys as well as Carlson, Reyes, O’Niell, etc. all had great value at one time and they got. Nothing to very little to show for them. They failed at evaluating their own players and trading when they had good value.

hugeCardfan wrote: ↑01 Sep 2025 08:23 am

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑01 Sep 2025 07:33 am

hugeCardfan wrote: ↑01 Sep 2025 07:28 am

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑01 Sep 2025 06:28 am

hugeCardfan wrote: ↑01 Sep 2025 06:04 am

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑01 Sep 2025 05:15 am

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑31 Aug 2025 23:37 pm

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑31 Aug 2025 23:22 pm

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑31 Aug 2025 23:15 pm

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑31 Aug 2025 23:11 pm

Banner29 wrote: ↑31 Aug 2025 20:49 pm

alw80 wrote: ↑31 Aug 2025 20:10 pm Which, honestly, was expected to be the case.

I think in the case of Walker, Gorman, Winn, and Noot we were expecting to see more progress. But as of now they all don’t inspire much hope

This is a massive problem for a reset that is hoping to rebuild internally. If you cant develop a MVP level talent and/or multiple all stars, and if we aren't willing to spend 200M on other team's developed talent, there is no realistic path to winning ~100 games and seriously competing at the level we want to year after year. Just a bucket of "average" hitters and one or two below average mixed in doesn't get us there. Not even close.

Well hopefully fixes the development system that Mo ruined and they can start producing quality players again. That’s the only way the cardinals will get better again then once it starts producing then they can spend money to fill in the gaps with good veterans

We keep hearing "fix the development". Well Bloom has been here 2 full seasons now and was supposedly focused on fixing the MILB development from the start. That's longer than some of our prospects have even been in the minors. Hope it doesn't take much longer to start seeing proof that its been successful and not just more smoke and mirrors.

lol you think an entire development system could be both fixed and be churning out quality prospects in just two seasons? That’s crazy he had to evaluate and see just exactly where the problems were who was worth keeping who to fire who to bring in then he had to go out and find those people and try to bring them in then they have to work with the players coming in. It took mo years to destroy but you think it could be fixed and be churning out good prospects in just two season

As has been pointed out before, teams like Houston (avg. 64 wins from 2009-2014), Philadelphia (avg. 69 wins from 2013-2017), Atlanta (avg. 72 wins from 2014-2017), etc. can take 4, 5, 6 years to rebuild.

If Cardinal fans endured those prolonged losing averages, there’d be blood in the streets.

The Cardinals aren't going to be an exception to the realities of baseball in the 21st century.

This is the cost of the Cardinals prolonged two decade run of a pretty high level of success. They kept trying to prolong it by trading prospects (e.g., Gallen, Alcantara, etc.) for ML players (as well as poor extensions and FA signings) and it has caught up to them.

Ancient history Matt. We don’t even have one 60 win season this century and I see little danger of one any time soon. The architect of that folly is effectively gone and we are on a new course. I don’t see us mired in your dark scenario. Our farm is top 3d and focused. Pitching is on the way wait as are position players. A couple good FA adds and a good trade dissembles the darkness.

I won't be surprised if it at least "Atlanta-like", where the Cardinals average somewhere in the 70s in terms of wins for 2024-2027/2028 (four or five seasons), before the farm system can deliver enough talent to shape out the ML roster to the point where it makes sense to start adding significantly from outside the organization.

At best I think the Cardinals are halfway through your "period of darkness", and maybe more like 2/5ths.

Not my period of darkness, Matt, yours. Pitching will determine how long it takes to break free. My eternal optimism disabuses the notion of years of subpar. I think we settle in the 80 wins a year or two before challenging the division and making a mark in the postseason.

Let's just not have them try to prematurely exit their "period of darkness" and end up adding guys just to be in a "period of greyness" where they are winning 83, 84, 85 games a year instead of being patient with the rebuild any trying to get back to 92, 93, 94 wins a year.

I'd rather win 70 games a year for five years to then win 90 games a year for five more years than win 80 games a year for a decade.

hugeCardfan wrote: ↑01 Sep 2025 05:23 am

Rojo Johnson wrote: ↑31 Aug 2025 22:36 pm

hugeCardfan wrote: ↑31 Aug 2025 20:43 pm The young bats are young. There are different momentum’s as well. I think some will work out. Some won’t. Next year will tell us more.

So, we’re gonna do the runway again next year? Like, we won’t know enough about the Spare Squad to throw in the towel in ’26 on a bunch of them? We have to watch them AGAIN? (drat).

Do you really think that’s gonna happen? With the arrival of JJ and the, let’s say emergence of Church, the growth of Gorman, others will fall by the wayside… I see Scott hitting in .710-30 range next year as a 4th OF and sooner or later traded to make space for Josh Baez. Crooks will push Pozo and Pages out.

I think Winn had a sophomore season and hits high .700 OPS next year.

There is no room for stagnancy. This team scores enough runs for quality pitching to win games. We need the emergence of Mathews and a decent FA addition. This team isn’t that far from respectability.

Lets take some of your statements.
1. Emergence of Church? He hit better in AAA this year but his bat was never ranked that high and he has not emerged at the major league level.
2. Growth of Gorman? Gorman is still a high K streaky hitter and has been more bad than good over his career and this year.
3. Scott was in his second year as starter and his first year he got replaced with Sianni.
4. Josh Baez replacing Scott as a starting outfielder is not a given. Baez has had his first good season in minors split between A and AA cant count on him at this point.
5. Crooks pushing Pages out and Pozo. Likely he does because Pages bat is nothing, Crooks plays good D, Pozo is not a young prospect. Still Crooks is not a great hitter. Crooks showed decent but not great hitting this year in AAA. Pozo as a better minor league hitter than Crooks.
6. Winn sophomore slump? Winn is in his 3rd season but I will give you that it was his second as a full season starter. However many players best seasons are their 1st or 2nd example Edman, Dejong, Carlson, Gorman(2 worse since), Noot, etc. Also in his first two seasons as full time starter Winn has shown some injury concerns potentially going forward.

This teams offense has two many inconsistencies, unknowns, hopes, and prayers. You saying this team is not far off is a lot of hope and prayer and not based in reality of what typically happens when you rely on this type of offense. They could take a drastic step back next year offensively just as easily. Hope and prayer in major sports typically ends badly. That has been Cards strategy for far too long long. Mo had to see what he had in the young trio of O’Niell, Bader, and Carlson and none of them are here anymore.

CardsBest wrote: ↑01 Sep 2025 08:42 am

Youboughtit wrote: ↑31 Aug 2025 21:06 pm

CardsBest wrote: ↑31 Aug 2025 20:01 pm Cardinals have had many young bats not perform well. Winn, Walker, Gorman, Noot, Scott, Pages were supposed to be primary starters or did start several games. Saggaese was supposed to be a good prospect received in trade. Church had good season in minors. Still small sample for Church and Saggese. Cards cant live with that many unproven bats in the lineup and expect to ever be a good team.

Winn .681 OPS great D but bat has been below average
Walker .595 OPS high Ks
Pages .654 OPS .228 AVG
Noot .717 OPS .239 AVG
Gorman .719 OPS .217 AVG high Ks
Saggese .626 OPS
Scott .623 OPS .223 AVG hit collector
Church .390 OPS

The Cardinals entered a rebuild with the 23rd rank farm system. Top 10 now only because of Wetherholt Doyle and 14 5 year rule 5 eligible players. What did you evpect? It’s going to get worse before better and a huge FA spree is the only way. These players have no trade value and a roster of 26 home grown player with multiple all stars is impossible

The biggest problem is these guys as well as Carlson, Reyes, O’Niell, etc. all had great value at one time and they got. Nothing to very little to show for them. They failed at evaluating their own players and trading when they had good value.

I don’t think John Mozeliak EVER sold high on any prospect.

Maybe somebody can name one but I can’t think of any.

Bomber1 wrote: ↑01 Sep 2025 09:27 am

CardsBest wrote: ↑01 Sep 2025 08:42 am

Youboughtit wrote: ↑31 Aug 2025 21:06 pm

CardsBest wrote: ↑31 Aug 2025 20:01 pm Cardinals have had many young bats not perform well. Winn, Walker, Gorman, Noot, Scott, Pages were supposed to be primary starters or did start several games. Saggaese was supposed to be a good prospect received in trade. Church had good season in minors. Still small sample for Church and Saggese. Cards cant live with that many unproven bats in the lineup and expect to ever be a good team.

Winn .681 OPS great D but bat has been below average
Walker .595 OPS high Ks
Pages .654 OPS .228 AVG
Noot .717 OPS .239 AVG
Gorman .719 OPS .217 AVG high Ks
Saggese .626 OPS
Scott .623 OPS .223 AVG hit collector
Church .390 OPS

The Cardinals entered a rebuild with the 23rd rank farm system. Top 10 now only because of Wetherholt Doyle and 14 5 year rule 5 eligible players. What did you evpect? It’s going to get worse before better and a huge FA spree is the only way. These players have no trade value and a roster of 26 home grown player with multiple all stars is impossible

The biggest problem is these guys as well as Carlson, Reyes, O’Niell, etc. all had great value at one time and they got. Nothing to very little to show for them. They failed at evaluating their own players and trading when they had good value.

I don’t think John Mozeliak EVER sold high on any prospect.

Maybe somebody can name one but I can’t think of any.

aroz, gallen and alcantra

peterman'srealitytour wrote: ↑31 Aug 2025 22:44 pm

CardsBest wrote: ↑31 Aug 2025 20:01 pm Cardinals have had many young bats not perform well. Winn, Walker, Gorman, Noot, Scott, Pages were supposed to be primary starters or did start several games. Saggaese was supposed to be a good prospect received in trade. Church had good season in minors. Still small sample for Church and Saggese. Cards cant live with that many unproven bats in the lineup and expect to ever be a good team.

Winn .681 OPS great D but bat has been below average
Walker .595 OPS high Ks
Pages .654 OPS .228 AVG
Noot .717 OPS .239 AVG
Gorman .719 OPS .217 AVG high Ks
Saggese .626 OPS
Scott .623 OPS .223 AVG hit collector
Church .390 OPS

If you are going to point out what you consider failures, you should point out the successes. Relative to expectations, these guys should be considered successes:

Donovan
Burleson
Herrera

In addition,Gorman and Saggese trending up. Regarding Pages, he has outperformed expectations. Regarding Church, coming into this season, most people didn’t even know his name. Barely on the radar. How can he be a failure when no one really had expectations?

Pages has been better than all of them in August

hugeCardfan wrote: ↑01 Sep 2025 05:23 am

Rojo Johnson wrote: ↑31 Aug 2025 22:36 pm

hugeCardfan wrote: ↑31 Aug 2025 20:43 pm The young bats are young. There are different momentum’s as well. I think some will work out. Some won’t. Next year will tell us more.

So, we’re gonna do the runway again next year? Like, we won’t know enough about the Spare Squad to throw in the towel in ’26 on a bunch of them? We have to watch them AGAIN? (drat).

Do you really think that’s gonna happen? With the arrival of JJ and the, let’s say emergence of Church, the growth of Gorman, others will fall by the wayside… I see Scott hitting in .710-30 range next year as a 4th OF and sooner or later traded to make space for Josh Baez. Crooks will push Pozo and Pages out.

I think Winn had a sophomore season and hits high .700 OPS next year.

There is no room for stagnancy. This team scores enough runs for quality pitching to win games. We need the emergence of Mathews and a decent FA addition. This team isn’t that far from respectability.

This team has no foundational players. None. Where are they going to come from? And don't tell me Donovan is one. He's not. And this offense is not as good as you think it is. Where are the big bats? There are none. This team is lacking in slug in a major way.