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An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 10:10 am

Red Bird Classic wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 09:59 am

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 09:05 am

Red Bird Classic wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 08:53 am

Ace07 wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 07:22 am Here are the prospects who have been #1 overall on MLB.com for the Cardinals:

Colby Rasmus, 2009 1st
Oscar Taveras, 2013 1st
Stephen Piscotty, 2015 1st
Dylan Carlson, 2020 1st overall
Jordan Walker, 2022 1st overall

Obviously different stories for each, but what an awful ROI on these players.

Don't keep up with MLB's prospect rankings, but it's hard to imagine that Stephen Piscotty, Carlson, Rasmus, or Walker were ever that highly regarded by anyone.

You might want to find a superior service to rank prospects.

Carlson, Rasmus, and Walker were all top-10 type guys across the rating agencies.

I'll buy that. Each was probably the top Cardinal prospect at some point. But that's not the same thing as being the overall #1 prospect in baseball.

Even Tavares wasn't the top prospect in baseball. You'd have to go all the way back to JD Drew to get a Cardinal outfielder who was the #1 prospect in baseball.

MLB Pipeline had Walker at #1 in May 2023 after some promotions ahead of him.

That's not much of a recommendation for MLB Pipeline is it?

When I mentioned Drew meant a (more or less) consensus #1. Walker was #4 (Baseball America); #4 (Major-League Baseball); and #2(Baseball Prospectus).

Cranny wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 10:00 am

Ace07 wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 07:22 am Here are the prospects who have been #1 overall on MLB.com for the Cardinals:

Colby Rasmus, 2009 1st
Oscar Taveras, 2013 1st
Stephen Piscotty, 2015 1st
Dylan Carlson, 2020 1st overall
Jordan Walker, 2022 1st overall

Obviously different stories for each, but what an awful ROI on these players.

Taveras? A tragedy. Not the Cardinals fault for ROI.
Walker? Way too soon to judge.

ROI doesn't make allowances for time and stupidity. It's just a snapshot at a given time telling the story of what returns you have received for your investments. You know this.

Red Bird Classic wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 10:20 am

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 10:10 am

Red Bird Classic wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 09:59 am

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 09:05 am

Red Bird Classic wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 08:53 am

Ace07 wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 07:22 am Here are the prospects who have been #1 overall on MLB.com for the Cardinals:

Colby Rasmus, 2009 1st
Oscar Taveras, 2013 1st
Stephen Piscotty, 2015 1st
Dylan Carlson, 2020 1st overall
Jordan Walker, 2022 1st overall

Obviously different stories for each, but what an awful ROI on these players.

Don't keep up with MLB's prospect rankings, but it's hard to imagine that Stephen Piscotty, Carlson, Rasmus, or Walker were ever that highly regarded by anyone.

You might want to find a superior service to rank prospects.

Carlson, Rasmus, and Walker were all top-10 type guys across the rating agencies.

I'll buy that. Each was probably the top Cardinal prospect at some point. But that's not the same thing as being the overall #1 prospect in baseball.

Even Tavares wasn't the top prospect in baseball. You'd have to go all the way back to JD Drew to get a Cardinal outfielder who was the #1 prospect in baseball.

MLB Pipeline had Walker at #1 in May 2023 after some promotions ahead of him.

That's not much of a recommendation for MLB Pipeline is it?

It is not. Personally I thought he was rated way too high, and MLB Pipeline is probably the one I put the least stock towards. There are a lot of entities out there that I find to be much more comprehensive in their coverage.

When I mentioned Drew meant a (more or less) consensus #1. Walker was #4 (Baseball America); #4 (Major-League Baseball); and #2(Baseball Prospectus).

Fair. Taveras was consensus top-3.

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 07:33 am

Ace07 wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 07:22 am Here are the prospects who have been #1 overall on MLB.com for the Cardinals:

Colby Rasmus, 2009 1st
Oscar Taveras, 2013 1st
Stephen Piscotty, 2015 1st
Dylan Carlson, 2020 1st overall
Jordan Walker, 2022 1st overall

Obviously different stories for each, but what an awful ROI on these players.

Quite a bit of bust in there. So to the argument- do I pay high prices proven talent or do I count on the farm.

Yet another black mark on Mo and his neglecting the minor league player development system.

BDWJr allowed him to stay in charge a solid half decade past his expiration date has led the franchise to where they are today.

Massive failure by Dewitt.

Red Bird Classic wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 10:13 am

Cranny wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 10:00 am

Ace07 wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 07:22 am Here are the prospects who have been #1 overall on MLB.com for the Cardinals:

Colby Rasmus, 2009 1st
Oscar Taveras, 2013 1st
Stephen Piscotty, 2015 1st
Dylan Carlson, 2020 1st overall
Jordan Walker, 2022 1st overall

Obviously different stories for each, but what an awful ROI on these players.

Taveras? A tragedy. Not the Cardinals fault for ROI.
Walker? Way too soon to judge.

Taveras never did anything on the field to suggest he was any better than Walker or Carlson. If anything, he was worse.

Taveras was bad, bad with a glove and bad with a stick. He didn't run well and lacked range in the outfield. He never got a chance to prove he could do better with time, but he was bad.

That's not real accurate.

Cardinals4Life wrote: ↑23 Aug 2025 00:33 am

Red Bird Classic wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 10:13 am

Cranny wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 10:00 am

Ace07 wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 07:22 am Here are the prospects who have been #1 overall on MLB.com for the Cardinals:

Colby Rasmus, 2009 1st
Oscar Taveras, 2013 1st
Stephen Piscotty, 2015 1st
Dylan Carlson, 2020 1st overall
Jordan Walker, 2022 1st overall

Obviously different stories for each, but what an awful ROI on these players.

Taveras? A tragedy. Not the Cardinals fault for ROI.
Walker? Way too soon to judge.

Taveras never did anything on the field to suggest he was any better than Walker or Carlson. If anything, he was worse.

Taveras was bad, bad with a glove and bad with a stick. He didn't run well and lacked range in the outfield. He never got a chance to prove he could do better with time, but he was bad.

That's not real accurate.

RBC likes to pretend that he doesn’t remember that Taveras was coming off of ankle surgery and hadn’t had a full offseason to truly recover.

He did run well and was a solid defender before the injury, and there would’ve been no sane reason to not expect the athleticism to return in time.

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 07:33 am

Ace07 wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 07:22 am Here are the prospects who have been #1 overall on MLB.com for the Cardinals:

Colby Rasmus, 2009 1st
Oscar Taveras, 2013 1st
Stephen Piscotty, 2015 1st
Dylan Carlson, 2020 1st overall
Jordan Walker, 2022 1st overall

Obviously different stories for each, but what an awful ROI on these players.

Quite a bit of bust in there. So to the argument- do I pay high prices proven talent or do I count on the farm.

Maybe an investment in scouting and coaching would help with the farm. I know, I know, pretty revolutionary thinking.

Cardinals4Life wrote: ↑23 Aug 2025 00:33 am

Red Bird Classic wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 10:13 am

Cranny wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 10:00 am

Ace07 wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 07:22 am Here are the prospects who have been #1 overall on MLB.com for the Cardinals:

Colby Rasmus, 2009 1st
Oscar Taveras, 2013 1st
Stephen Piscotty, 2015 1st
Dylan Carlson, 2020 1st overall
Jordan Walker, 2022 1st overall

Obviously different stories for each, but what an awful ROI on these players.

Taveras? A tragedy. Not the Cardinals fault for ROI.
Walker? Way too soon to judge.

Taveras never did anything on the field to suggest he was any better than Walker or Carlson. If anything, he was worse.

Taveras was bad, bad with a glove and bad with a stick. He didn't run well and lacked range in the outfield. He never got a chance to prove he could do better with time, but he was bad.

That's not real accurate.

Are you saying Taveras was a good major-league hitter? Are you saying he was a good fielder? If you don't agree with my position, fine, but make a case.

Red Bird Classic wrote: ↑23 Aug 2025 11:37 am

Cardinals4Life wrote: ↑23 Aug 2025 00:33 am

Red Bird Classic wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 10:13 am

Cranny wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 10:00 am

Ace07 wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 07:22 am Here are the prospects who have been #1 overall on MLB.com for the Cardinals:

Colby Rasmus, 2009 1st
Oscar Taveras, 2013 1st
Stephen Piscotty, 2015 1st
Dylan Carlson, 2020 1st overall
Jordan Walker, 2022 1st overall

Obviously different stories for each, but what an awful ROI on these players.

Taveras? A tragedy. Not the Cardinals fault for ROI.
Walker? Way too soon to judge.

Taveras never did anything on the field to suggest he was any better than Walker or Carlson. If anything, he was worse.

Taveras was bad, bad with a glove and bad with a stick. He didn't run well and lacked range in the outfield. He never got a chance to prove he could do better with time, but he was bad.

That's not real accurate.

Are you saying Taveras was a good major-league hitter? Are you saying he was a good fielder? If you don't agree with my position, fine, but make a case.

I would say he didn't get enough playing time to prove one way or another. he could have stunk.. he could have been great. we'll never know

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 07:52 am

Absolut wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 07:26 am Piscotty was 1 overall?

No. Like... not even close.

MLB had him at #90 pre-2015 - https://www.baseball-reference.com/regi ... scot001ste

I don't think MLB.com was listing their own rankings in 2009 when he indicates that Rasmus was. On his player page, MLB is not listed for prospect rankings. He was #3 in Baseball America and #8 in Baseball Prospectus... and they key player in a trade that helped the Cardinals win a World Series, which I'd consider a solid ROI - https://www.baseball-reference.com/regi ... smus001col

MLB had Carlson at #17 pre-2020 - https://www.baseball-reference.com/regi ... rlso000dyl

No idea what Ace is talking about... or, more accurately, Ace has no idea what he is talking about.

#1 overall for the Cardinals, as in, with the Cardinal organization. It’s not that difficult to decipher what he meant.

These were all #1 Cardinal prospects on the listed years on MLB.com's website. Not #1 prospects in MLB overall. I agree, good organizations draft well while evaluating talent and bringing in the right pieces. They invest in the right pieces and have a clear direction/path in place. Cardinals haven't done enough of any of this in years.

Talented prospects haven't developed into major assets or were traded away. Mozeliak's free agent track record is probably the largest net negative over the last decade+ for the organization. They also don't seem to have a clear direction of what they plan to accomplish.

moose-and-squirrel wrote: ↑23 Aug 2025 11:40 am

Red Bird Classic wrote: ↑23 Aug 2025 11:37 am

Cardinals4Life wrote: ↑23 Aug 2025 00:33 am

Red Bird Classic wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 10:13 am

Cranny wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 10:00 am

Ace07 wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 07:22 am Here are the prospects who have been #1 overall on MLB.com for the Cardinals:

Colby Rasmus, 2009 1st
Oscar Taveras, 2013 1st
Stephen Piscotty, 2015 1st
Dylan Carlson, 2020 1st overall
Jordan Walker, 2022 1st overall

Obviously different stories for each, but what an awful ROI on these players.

Taveras? A tragedy. Not the Cardinals fault for ROI.
Walker? Way too soon to judge.

Taveras never did anything on the field to suggest he was any better than Walker or Carlson. If anything, he was worse.

Taveras was bad, bad with a glove and bad with a stick. He didn't run well and lacked range in the outfield. He never got a chance to prove he could do better with time, but he was bad.

That's not real accurate.

Are you saying Taveras was a good major-league hitter? Are you saying he was a good fielder? If you don't agree with my position, fine, but make a case.

I would say he didn't get enough playing time to prove one way or another. he could have stunk.. he could have been great. we'll never know

He stunk in the major-league playing time he did get. STUNK! He hit .239 with a .590 OPS and 3 home runs. Even Walker would be embarrassed by those numbers. And Taveras fielding metrics weren't any better.

Red Bird Classic wrote: ↑23 Aug 2025 12:01 pm

moose-and-squirrel wrote: ↑23 Aug 2025 11:40 am

Red Bird Classic wrote: ↑23 Aug 2025 11:37 am

Cardinals4Life wrote: ↑23 Aug 2025 00:33 am

Red Bird Classic wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 10:13 am

Cranny wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 10:00 am

Ace07 wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 07:22 am Here are the prospects who have been #1 overall on MLB.com for the Cardinals:

Colby Rasmus, 2009 1st
Oscar Taveras, 2013 1st
Stephen Piscotty, 2015 1st
Dylan Carlson, 2020 1st overall
Jordan Walker, 2022 1st overall

Obviously different stories for each, but what an awful ROI on these players.

Taveras? A tragedy. Not the Cardinals fault for ROI.
Walker? Way too soon to judge.

Taveras never did anything on the field to suggest he was any better than Walker or Carlson. If anything, he was worse.

Taveras was bad, bad with a glove and bad with a stick. He didn't run well and lacked range in the outfield. He never got a chance to prove he could do better with time, but he was bad.

That's not real accurate.

Are you saying Taveras was a good major-league hitter? Are you saying he was a good fielder? If you don't agree with my position, fine, but make a case.

I would say he didn't get enough playing time to prove one way or another. he could have stunk.. he could have been great. we'll never know

He stunk in the major-league playing time he did get. STUNK! He hit .239 with a .590 OPS and 3 home runs. Even Walker would be embarrassed by those numbers. And Taveras fielding metrics weren't any better.

you can tell all that by less that 250 ab's?

moose-and-squirrel wrote: ↑23 Aug 2025 12:16 pm

Red Bird Classic wrote: ↑23 Aug 2025 12:01 pm

moose-and-squirrel wrote: ↑23 Aug 2025 11:40 am

Red Bird Classic wrote: ↑23 Aug 2025 11:37 am

Cardinals4Life wrote: ↑23 Aug 2025 00:33 am

Red Bird Classic wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 10:13 am

Cranny wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 10:00 am

Ace07 wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 07:22 am Here are the prospects who have been #1 overall on MLB.com for the Cardinals:

Colby Rasmus, 2009 1st
Oscar Taveras, 2013 1st
Stephen Piscotty, 2015 1st
Dylan Carlson, 2020 1st overall
Jordan Walker, 2022 1st overall

Obviously different stories for each, but what an awful ROI on these players.

Taveras? A tragedy. Not the Cardinals fault for ROI.
Walker? Way too soon to judge.

Taveras never did anything on the field to suggest he was any better than Walker or Carlson. If anything, he was worse.

Taveras was bad, bad with a glove and bad with a stick. He didn't run well and lacked range in the outfield. He never got a chance to prove he could do better with time, but he was bad.

That's not real accurate.

Are you saying Taveras was a good major-league hitter? Are you saying he was a good fielder? If you don't agree with my position, fine, but make a case.

I would say he didn't get enough playing time to prove one way or another. he could have stunk.. he could have been great. we'll never know

He stunk in the major-league playing time he did get. STUNK! He hit .239 with a .590 OPS and 3 home runs. Even Walker would be embarrassed by those numbers. And Taveras fielding metrics weren't any better.

you can tell all that by less that 250 ab's?

Those are the numbers. I'm not projecting anything.

I'm not saying the Taveras would never have been any better. What I'm saying is there's no evidence that Taveras was going to do any better than Carlson or Walker. What we saw was a player who didn't hit well, didn't have much power, didn't field well, and didn't run well.

My complaint is with people who say "Taveras would have been better if he hadn't gotten himself killed." Looking at Carlson et. al. and the record, there's no reason to think so.

Tommy Pham & Randal Grichuk were better than all of these guys & went onto have far better careers.
Oscar was never going to make it, big slow swing, he'd have been carved up within a season.
So much wasted time & money.

Red Bird Classic wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 10:13 am

Cranny wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 10:00 am

Ace07 wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 07:22 am Here are the prospects who have been #1 overall on MLB.com for the Cardinals:

Colby Rasmus, 2009 1st
Oscar Taveras, 2013 1st
Stephen Piscotty, 2015 1st
Dylan Carlson, 2020 1st overall
Jordan Walker, 2022 1st overall

Obviously different stories for each, but what an awful ROI on these players.

Taveras? A tragedy. Not the Cardinals fault for ROI.
Walker? Way too soon to judge.

Taveras never did anything on the field to suggest he was any better than Walker or Carlson. If anything, he was worse.

Taveras was bad, bad with a glove and bad with a stick. He didn't run well and lacked range in the outfield. He never got a chance to prove he could do better with time, but he was bad.

Bad? Maybe his half season in MLB.

His AAA career posted .313/.358/.485/.843 over 108 games
His AA was .321/.380/.572/.953 in 124 games