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Re: Velocity vs. command
Posted: 08 Aug 2025 14:09 pm
by jw0595
1) The cyclical nature of things. At some point, someone will take a chance on the next Greg Maddux & command & control will be back in.
2) Pretty much all scouts are wannabe coaches. Coaches always think they can take a "toolsy" player & coach him up. A player who is already "coached up" but is physically maxed out has a perceptively lower ceiling. If they draft someone who has all of the tools, but they never develop, that's someone else's fault.
3) Strictly from a PR standpoint, it's a much easier sell. "We're bringing up triple digit throwing Helsley." is a much easier sell than "We're bringing up Brad Thompson, whose fastball has been known to trip the radar guns at 88 mph."
Re: Velocity vs. command
Posted: 08 Aug 2025 14:38 pm
by icon
rockondlouie wrote: ↑08 Aug 2025 12:51 pm
Hazelwood72 wrote: ↑08 Aug 2025 12:47 pm
In my many years of watching Cardinal baseball and MLB baseball in general, the best pitcher I ever saw was Sandy Koufax in his prime. And it took Koufax about 5 years to learn command. In his early career he threw even harder, but walked more batters and threw more wild pitches. It took Norm Sherry, his Dodger catcher, to get Sandy to throw at 90 percent rather than 100 percent.
It’s like when I golf. If I swing at 90 percent, I hit the ball straighter and farther than when I swing from the heels.
It’s the great athletes like Koufax who can find that fine line between too little effort and too much effort, and duplicate it time after time.
And look how long it took N. Ryan to develop command too!
And Randy Johnson.
Re: Velocity vs. command
Posted: 08 Aug 2025 16:44 pm
by BrockFloodMaris
ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑08 Aug 2025 11:58 am
craviduce wrote: ↑08 Aug 2025 11:38 am
OldRed wrote: ↑08 Aug 2025 11:33 am
Everyone it seems is looking for guys that throw upper 90's. What's wrong with average velocity and great command?
you don't get as much run on the fastball at lower velocity...better arm and glove side movement with a fastball at 95mph vs. 92-93mph
edit ~ the possibility of the movement is greater at higher velocities....not everyone can get that movement. Sorry, I misspoke
Greg Maddux got a lot of movement on his 80's speed fastball. Of course he also got a foot wider strike zone from the umpires.
It's velocity, control, movement, changing speeds, ability to throw multiple pitches with the same delivery so the batters don't have a "tell".
Maddux was a freak! He could “tunnel” several different pitches from the same arm slot. He would change velo, location, spin rate and movement direction from the same delivery. The Professor was otherworldly.
Re: Velocity vs. command
Posted: 08 Aug 2025 17:21 pm
by OldRed
BrockFloodMaris wrote: ↑08 Aug 2025 16:44 pm
ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑08 Aug 2025 11:58 am
craviduce wrote: ↑08 Aug 2025 11:38 am
OldRed wrote: ↑08 Aug 2025 11:33 am
Everyone it seems is looking for guys that throw upper 90's. What's wrong with average velocity and great command?
you don't get as much run on the fastball at lower velocity...better arm and glove side movement with a fastball at 95mph vs. 92-93mph
edit ~ the possibility of the movement is greater at higher velocities....not everyone can get that movement. Sorry, I misspoke
Greg Maddux got a lot of movement on his 80's speed fastball. Of course he also got a foot wider strike zone from the umpires.
It's velocity, control, movement, changing speeds, ability to throw multiple pitches with the same delivery so the batters don't have a "tell".
Maddux was a freak! He could “tunnel” several different pitches from the same arm slot. He would change velo, location, spin rate and movement direction from the same delivery. The Professor was otherworldly.
Was Warren Spahn?
Re: Velocity vs. command
Posted: 08 Aug 2025 18:51 pm
by Clubmaker2
Curt Schilling gave an interview where he explained there was a big difference between 93 and 97 and basically how like each mile per hour or something was like a half a ball wider you could get a batter to chase off the plate. So like if you throw 97 you can more easily get guys to chase a pitch two balls wide off the plate.. Pitch 93, not so easy.
Re: Velocity vs. command
Posted: 08 Aug 2025 19:39 pm
by BrockFloodMaris
OldRed wrote: ↑08 Aug 2025 17:21 pm
BrockFloodMaris wrote: ↑08 Aug 2025 16:44 pm
ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑08 Aug 2025 11:58 am
craviduce wrote: ↑08 Aug 2025 11:38 am
OldRed wrote: ↑08 Aug 2025 11:33 am
Everyone it seems is looking for guys that throw upper 90's. What's wrong with average velocity and great command?
you don't get as much run on the fastball at lower velocity...better arm and glove side movement with a fastball at 95mph vs. 92-93mph
edit ~ the possibility of the movement is greater at higher velocities....not everyone can get that movement. Sorry, I misspoke
Greg Maddux got a lot of movement on his 80's speed fastball. Of course he also got a foot wider strike zone from the umpires.
It's velocity, control, movement, changing speeds, ability to throw multiple pitches with the same delivery so the batters don't have a "tell".
Maddux was a freak! He could “tunnel” several different pitches from the same arm slot. He would change velo, location, spin rate and movement direction from the same delivery. The Professor was otherworldly.
Was Warren Spahn?
Haven’t a clue.
Re: Velocity vs. command
Posted: 08 Aug 2025 20:34 pm
by An Old Friend
jw0595 wrote: ↑08 Aug 2025 14:09 pm
1) The cyclical nature of things. At some point, someone will take a chance on the next Greg Maddux & command & control will be back in.
2) Pretty much all scouts are wannabe coaches. Coaches always think they can take a "toolsy" player & coach him up. A player who is already "coached up" but is physically maxed out has a perceptively lower ceiling. If they draft someone who has all of the tools, but they never develop, that's someone else's fault.
3) Strictly from a PR standpoint, it's a much easier sell. "We're bringing up triple digit throwing Helsley." is a much easier sell than "We're bringing up Brad Thompson, whose fastball has been known to trip the radar guns at 88 mph."
“Take a chance on the next Greg Maddux”… meaning a guy with good command and above average velocity? He threw in the 90’s when he came up. He also had like 80 command.
Re: Velocity vs. command
Posted: 09 Aug 2025 09:57 am
by CCard
sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑08 Aug 2025 12:28 pm
CCard wrote: ↑08 Aug 2025 12:08 pm
OldRed wrote: ↑08 Aug 2025 11:33 am
Everyone it seems is looking for guys that throw upper 90's. What's wrong with average velocity and great command?
The faster the velocity the less time a batter has to read spin and react. That being said, you could throw the ball a 200 mph and it's useless if you can't keep it near the plate. That's why it's so rare when a pitcher does both.
Much of that lack of command would be due to huge movement I’d think. Hard to control exact movement. Like forecasting weather; just hope to get close.
Yeah, because of the higher velocity there's less of a margin for error when the arm comes forward and down. Power pitchers have more trouble harnessing that thing.
Re: Velocity vs. command
Posted: 09 Aug 2025 10:23 am
by CrownRoyalCaramel
craviduce wrote: ↑08 Aug 2025 11:38 am
OldRed wrote: ↑08 Aug 2025 11:33 am
Everyone it seems is looking for guys that throw upper 90's. What's wrong with average velocity and great command?
you don't get as much run on the fastball at lower velocity...better arm and glove side movement with a fastball at 95mph vs. 92-93mph
edit ~ the possibility of the movement is greater at higher velocities....not everyone can get that movement. Sorry, I misspoke
Your edit is true. I have always thought Helsley had minimal movement on his fastball, but he throws it hard
Re: Velocity vs. command
Posted: 09 Aug 2025 11:04 am
by Cardinals4Life
OldRed wrote: ↑08 Aug 2025 11:33 am
Everyone it seems is looking for guys that throw upper 90's. What's wrong with average velocity and great command?
What's the old saying?
"I don't care how fast you throw ball 4!"
Re: Velocity vs. command
Posted: 09 Aug 2025 11:07 am
by Cardinals4Life
Quincy Varnish wrote: ↑08 Aug 2025 12:53 pm
OldRed wrote: ↑08 Aug 2025 11:33 am
Everyone it seems is looking for guys that throw upper 90's. What's wrong with average velocity and great command?
Mikolas
Poor example, unless he means to locate his pitches over the heart of the plate!
Re: Velocity vs. command
Posted: 09 Aug 2025 12:48 pm
by golfindude
Golf comparison: A very good golfer who hits 220 yd drives should hit more fairways than a very good golfer who drives it 320.
Re: Velocity vs. command
Posted: 12 Aug 2025 09:28 am
by ScotchMIrish
BrockFloodMaris wrote: ↑08 Aug 2025 16:44 pm
ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑08 Aug 2025 11:58 am
craviduce wrote: ↑08 Aug 2025 11:38 am
OldRed wrote: ↑08 Aug 2025 11:33 am
Everyone it seems is looking for guys that throw upper 90's. What's wrong with average velocity and great command?
you don't get as much run on the fastball at lower velocity...better arm and glove side movement with a fastball at 95mph vs. 92-93mph
edit ~ the possibility of the movement is greater at higher velocities....not everyone can get that movement. Sorry, I misspoke
Greg Maddux got a lot of movement on his 80's speed fastball. Of course he also got a foot wider strike zone from the umpires.
It's velocity, control, movement, changing speeds, ability to throw multiple pitches with the same delivery so the batters don't have a "tell".
Maddux was a freak! He could “tunnel” several different pitches from the same arm slot. He would change velo, location, spin rate and movement direction from the same delivery. The Professor was otherworldly.
True - but if everybody else got his strike zone they would be similarly successful.
Re: Velocity vs. command
Posted: 12 Aug 2025 10:07 am
by illiniriles
Late movement is probably the biggest influence on swing and misses and weak contact, I saw a great interview with Greg Maddux and he stated that he could generate late movement on most of his pitches by varying the pressure he put on the baseball with the tips of his fingers. It makes a lot of sense because his pitches moved later than just about anyone's I ever saw. Also, Bruce Sutter's splitters moved late when he was "on". When he wasn't, they didn't and he could be hit.
Re: Velocity vs. command
Posted: 12 Aug 2025 11:33 am
by jcgmoi
Late movement and pinpoint control with everything he threw. He got tons of swings and misses and weak contact on pitches that were strikes until they weren't.
That's the basis for the canard of Maddux and the expanded strike-zone. The suggestion that without 'his strike zone' he'd be just another guy is ludicrous.
Re: Velocity vs. command
Posted: 12 Aug 2025 11:35 am
by Goldfan
3dender wrote: ↑08 Aug 2025 11:51 am
OldRed wrote: ↑08 Aug 2025 11:33 am
Everyone it seems is looking for guys that throw upper 90's. What's wrong with average velocity and great command?
What's wrong is that over the last 10-15 years, hitters have evolved to be able to hit other-worldly velocity and movement... so when an "average" velocity guy comes along with pitches that don't move all that much, even if he can spot all his pitches perfectly they look like meatballs.
Hitters have devolved…..
Go listen to Will Clark, Chipper Jones…..