STLtoday.com

rockondlouie wrote: ↑23 Jul 2025 09:06 am

jcgmoi wrote: ↑23 Jul 2025 08:59 am Why would the Dodgers look to move Pages? Not for a rental and a lesser offense.

1) Winn is NOT a rental

2) They're the DODGERS! You don't think they'd lock Helsley down if he went out there and pitched great?

3) NOT a lesser offense in 2026 (Winn isn't Pages but he's still a solid 101 OPS+)

Ohtani-Betts-Freeman-Smith-Hernandez.............MORE than enough offense this season and again they're the DODGERS and can easily outbid anyone for K. Tucker this offseason to replace Pages.

They get a great young defensive SS and a stud closer.

We get the RHHing outfielder we desperately need.

WIN-WIN

it’s not a win for the Dodgers

jbrach wrote: ↑23 Jul 2025 08:49 amno thanks

Crazy how many people already want to move Winn

rockondlouie wrote: ↑23 Jul 2025 08:48 am R. Helsley
+
M. Winn

for

A. Pages
19 HR
63 RBI
.285 .326 .489 .815


-M. Betts goes back to the OF to replace Pages, Dodgers get a great defensive SS and great bullpen piece.

-Then they sign K. Tucker in the offseason to replace Pages.

-While C. Bloom gets the young, cost controlled (not a free agent until 2031) righthanded hitter he needs for the OF and he slides JJW in at SS 2026 opening day.

-WIN-WIN for both teams!

Get er' done.

Feels like a significant overpay. Winn and Pages might be near each other in value, although I’d think Winn would have more based on his position and defensive abilities. So then you’re giving Helsley away.

Cards would have to get more back in a deal like this.

Jobu's Rum wrote: ↑23 Jul 2025 09:44 am

jbrach wrote: ↑23 Jul 2025 08:49 amno thanks

Crazy how many people already want to move Winn

Not I!

I laud you for at least trying. I don't think the Dodgers would do it but again, it'd be worth a try. They went for Edman!

The majority of this board doesn't even try to play GM. They mutter "trade X" or "trade Y," but offer no reasonable two-way deal. Yours is reasonable. My favorite is, of course, Melville, who constantly decries that a player is horrible and then proposes we trade them for a young star, offering no names.

russellhammond wrote: ↑23 Jul 2025 09:17 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑23 Jul 2025 09:11 am

russellhammond wrote: ↑23 Jul 2025 09:05 am Serious question.....why trade Winn? I know you have to give to get, but Winn should be a centerpiece in the Cardinals rebuild.

You answered it russell (and the centerpiece of the rebuild is going to be JJW, not Winn)

To get a young, cost controlled for years stud RHHing OFer like Pages it has to hurt.

While JJW may not be Winn w/the glove he's going to more than make up for it by being a vastly superior offensive threat.

And accord to fangraphs he's no worse than a league average SS now (who most likely can improve under J. Oquendo's tutelage).

And for the other poster, Donovan doesn't work in this deal.

He's NOT a SS and that's what the Dodgers need to move Mookie back to the OF.

While I don't think Winn is going to be a "superstar" or anywhere close to "Ozzie territory" at SS, he will be a great player and a draw for fans. I'm just really reluctant to trade Winn.....I think he's the closest to untouchable as a position player in the organization.

No need to worry, this deal won't ever happen and I'm just having some fun as we near the trading deadline.

But I'd happily include Winn if the Dodgers asked for him and were willing to deal Pages.

Interesting trade but would really involve lots of moving parts from both teams. This is more typical of an off season move when more time to sort things out. Cards have a crowded outfield now so one or more current players would need to be moved. Dodgers are looking for a LH bat for this year so Winn wouldn’t help that now. Like I said I can see where this in the long run could benefit both teams but more of an offseason move.
Personally I would like to keep Winn. Like others have said Helsley and Donovan makes more sense right now for the Dodgers. Donovan can play left field, third covering for Muncy and second base.
Would they give up Pages in that deal? I think they would rather give up prospects. Dodgers look year to year what gives them the best chance to win it all. They would rather give from the future instead of lessening their chances this year.

ClassicO wrote: ↑23 Jul 2025 10:04 am I laud you for at least trying. I don't think the Dodgers would do it but again, it'd be worth a try. They went for Edman!

The majority of this board doesn't even try to play GM. They mutter "trade X" or "trade Y," but offer no reasonable two-way deal. Yours is reasonable. My favorite is, of course, Melville, who constantly decries that a player is horrible and then proposes we trade them for a young star, offering no names.

Thx Co

Just having some fun w/a "realistic" type trade that's makes both teams better.

I remember the c r a p from some in CT I took the day after the 2018 season when I started a thread title:

"My #1 offseason trade target is............Paul Goldschmidt"

Same last year when I said they needed to give I. Hererra an OF'ers glove and teach him to play left field.

When someone actually offers reasonable baseball moves too many in here want to c r a p on the idea before they think about the reasoning behind such moves.

That's why I appreciate guys like you, FGM, Matt, RBI's, Duce, Scouty etal who actually put something out there knowing the c r a p could be coming.

Jobu's Rum wrote: ↑23 Jul 2025 09:44 am

jbrach wrote: ↑23 Jul 2025 08:49 amno thanks

Crazy how many people already want to move Winn

Jobu, it's not "wanting" to get rid of Winn (I'm a big fan) but rather it's structuring a trade idea that actually makes sense.

In this case the Dodgers benefit greatly by strengthening their infield defense and their bullpen.

The Cardinals benefit greatly by acquiring a stud, righthanded hitting OF they control for years.

The Cardinals have JJW playing SS so they have Winn's replacement.

The Dodgers can easily sign K. Tucker to replace Pages in the offseason as well as retain Helsley if they choose to.

rockondlouie wrote: ↑23 Jul 2025 10:24 am

Jobu's Rum wrote: ↑23 Jul 2025 09:44 am

jbrach wrote: ↑23 Jul 2025 08:49 amno thanks

Crazy how many people already want to move Winn

Jobu, it's not "wanting" to get rid of Winn (I'm a big fan) but rather it's structuring a trade idea that actually makes sense.

In this case the Dodgers benefit greatly by strengthening their infield defense and their bullpen.

The Cardinals benefit greatly by acquiring a stud, righthanded hitting OF they control for years.

The Cardinals have JJW playing SS so they have Winn's replacement.

The Dodgers can easily sign K. Tucker to replace Pages in the offseason as well as retain Helsley if they choose to.

You’re really trying to give away Winn.

OPS the last 2 years
Pages: .762
Winn: .723

One plays SS, the other is an OFer. And it’s not like Pages .813 OPS is all that much higher than Winn’s .713. Especially when you factor in elite defense at SS. Winn’s fWAR is 3.0, Pages is 3.2.

And Winn seems to be heating up with an .872 OPS over his last 14 days. Pages is at .709 OPS over his last 28 days and .833 OPS over his last 14.

Futuregm2 wrote: ↑23 Jul 2025 11:13 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑23 Jul 2025 10:24 am

Jobu's Rum wrote: ↑23 Jul 2025 09:44 am

jbrach wrote: ↑23 Jul 2025 08:49 amno thanks

Crazy how many people already want to move Winn

Jobu, it's not "wanting" to get rid of Winn (I'm a big fan) but rather it's structuring a trade idea that actually makes sense.

In this case the Dodgers benefit greatly by strengthening their infield defense and their bullpen.

The Cardinals benefit greatly by acquiring a stud, righthanded hitting OF they control for years.

The Cardinals have JJW playing SS so they have Winn's replacement.

The Dodgers can easily sign K. Tucker to replace Pages in the offseason as well as retain Helsley if they choose to.

You’re really trying to give away Winn.

OPS the last 2 years
Pages: .762
Winn: .723

One plays SS, the other is an OFer. And it’s not like Pages .813 OPS is all that much higher than Winn’s .713. Especially when you factor in elite defense at SS. Winn’s fWAR is 3.0, Pages is 3.2.

And Winn seems to be heating up with an .872 OPS over his last 14 days. Pages is at .709 OPS over his last 28 days and .833 OPS over his last 14.

No "giveaway" at all, fair offer.

2025
Pages
19 HR
.815 OPS
3.1 bWAR

Winn
7 HR
.713 OPS
2.4 bWAR

One plays SS, the other plays CF

And you're IGNORING the Cardinals have NO righthanded hitting OF'ers anywhere close to Pages while having a super talented hitter at Memphis in JJW who's playing SS.

Ok he may not be Winn level defensively but the odds are super strong Winn's not JJW level offensively either, wash.

Again, you can have inane KMOX open line "Let's trade J. Walker and Helsley for A. Pages" ideas

or

You can structure a fair trade.

This is a fair, win-win trade that makes both teams better (especially when you realize the Dodgers can sign K. Tucker if they want to this off season and the Cardinals have JJW ready to step in at SS).

icon wrote: ↑23 Jul 2025 09:04 am Winn is a bona fide defensive superstar at the most premium position on the field. He has 16 OAA and is +5 DRS in 764 innings. And he has only 3 errors this year to date -- almost unheard of at SS. And he's already far better than Ozzie was at his age with the bat. 3.0 fWAR to date. There's little chance JJ would be anywhere near Winn on D at SS.

I'd sub Donovan in that deal for Winn. He's much older with less control and has zero chance to ever be a superstar. Winn still has that chance. And there is a logjam at 2B, not at SS. JJ can be moved in at 2B for Donovan.

Winn will never be a superstar

I don't think it is a terrible idea, but I liked the trade you brought up yesterday better. In that one, the Dodgers would send Pages to St. Louis for Helsley and Nootbaar. I thought that would not be enough, and suggested adding Maton or Arenado to LA. I would rather give up Noot and Maton or Arenado instead of Winn.

russellhammond wrote: ↑23 Jul 2025 09:17 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑23 Jul 2025 09:11 am

russellhammond wrote: ↑23 Jul 2025 09:05 am Serious question.....why trade Winn? I know you have to give to get, but Winn should be a centerpiece in the Cardinals rebuild.

You answered it russell (and the centerpiece of the rebuild is going to be JJW, not Winn)

To get a young, cost controlled for years stud RHHing OFer like Pages it has to hurt.

While JJW may not be Winn w/the glove he's going to more than make up for it by being a vastly superior offensive threat.

And accord to fangraphs he's no worse than a league average SS now (who most likely can improve under J. Oquendo's tutelage).

And for the other poster, Donovan doesn't work in this deal.

He's NOT a SS and that's what the Dodgers need to move Mookie back to the OF.

While I don't think Winn is going to be a "superstar" or anywhere close to "Ozzie territory" at SS, he will be a great player and a draw for fans. I'm just really reluctant to trade Winn.....I think he's the closest to untouchable as a position player in the organization.

None should be untouchable..

rockondlouie wrote: ↑23 Jul 2025 11:34 am

Futuregm2 wrote: ↑23 Jul 2025 11:13 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑23 Jul 2025 10:24 am

Jobu's Rum wrote: ↑23 Jul 2025 09:44 am

jbrach wrote: ↑23 Jul 2025 08:49 amno thanks

Crazy how many people already want to move Winn

Jobu, it's not "wanting" to get rid of Winn (I'm a big fan) but rather it's structuring a trade idea that actually makes sense.

In this case the Dodgers benefit greatly by strengthening their infield defense and their bullpen.

The Cardinals benefit greatly by acquiring a stud, righthanded hitting OF they control for years.

The Cardinals have JJW playing SS so they have Winn's replacement.

The Dodgers can easily sign K. Tucker to replace Pages in the offseason as well as retain Helsley if they choose to.

You’re really trying to give away Winn.

OPS the last 2 years
Pages: .762
Winn: .723

One plays SS, the other is an OFer. And it’s not like Pages .813 OPS is all that much higher than Winn’s .713. Especially when you factor in elite defense at SS. Winn’s fWAR is 3.0, Pages is 3.2.

And Winn seems to be heating up with an .872 OPS over his last 14 days. Pages is at .709 OPS over his last 28 days and .833 OPS over his last 14.

No "giveaway" at all, fair offer.

2025
Pages
19 HR
.815 OPS
3.1 bWAR

Winn
7 HR
.713 OPS
2.4 bWAR

One plays SS, the other plays CF

And you're IGNORING the Cardinals have NO righthanded hitting OF'ers anywhere close to Pages while having a super talented hitter at Memphis in JJW who's playing SS.

Ok he may not be Winn level defensively but the odds are super strong Winn's not JJW level offensively either, wash.

Again, you can have inane KMOX open line "Let's trade J. Walker and Helsley for A. Pages" ideas

or

You can structure a fair trade.

This is a fair, win-win trade that makes both teams better (especially when you realize the Dodgers can sign K. Tucker if they want to this off season and the Cardinals have JJW ready to step in at SS).

Pages is not the kind of player that I would deal Winn for.

Very low walk rate (4.5%), not a good chase rate (34%), not a great EV (avg 88 mph), not a great barrel% (8%), and a low hard hit% (38%) for a guy that is going to be offense first. He had a great start to the year, other than that he hasn’t shown a ton IMO at the big league level.

ClassicO wrote: ↑23 Jul 2025 10:04 am I laud you for at least trying. I don't think the Dodgers would do it but again, it'd be worth a try. They went for Edman!

The majority of this board doesn't even try to play GM. They mutter "trade X" or "trade Y," but offer no reasonable two-way deal. Yours is reasonable. My favorite is, of course, Melville, who constantly decries that a player is horrible and then proposes we trade them for a young star, offering no names.

Yep