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This part is sad: Sure losing gives you a better draft slot,

Right now the Cards are at 15th. They cannot go below 10th in 2026 due to previous lotteries, etc.

CCard wrote: ↑20 Jul 2025 09:37 am This is the problem with the rebuild argument. If you're okay with paying for premium talent then why not be okay with it now? Why wait and make the fans suffer through mediocre talent? Make your case. To me, there is no good excuse. Sure losing gives you a better draft slot, but it's also LOSING! If you buy the premium talent now, they'll still be here when your superstar draft picks come up and if not then you just buy more premium talent. This business of having to lose to build a cheap winner is a scam.

You dont seem to understand rebuilds.
1. Contracts like arenado and contreras will be coming off the bokms creating up more room for signing high dollar free agents since whether we like it or not dewitt is issuing a budget.
2. Any free agent is usually aged. If we sign these high dollar older free agents while our youngsters are still developing and not in prime yet, them its wasted and by the time pur youngsters reach their prime those guys are starting to downslide like arenado and those contracts prevent you from signing new free agents.

3. Just grow up. If you dont like it stop following cardinals. But management was actually up front for once this season. Maybe dont invest so much of your life into a sports team that rebuilding will set you in a whiny mood all year.

Wattage wrote: ↑20 Jul 2025 11:33 am

CCard wrote: ↑20 Jul 2025 09:37 am This is the problem with the rebuild argument. If you're okay with paying for premium talent then why not be okay with it now? Why wait and make the fans suffer through mediocre talent? Make your case. To me, there is no good excuse. Sure losing gives you a better draft slot, but it's also LOSING! If you buy the premium talent now, they'll still be here when your superstar draft picks come up and if not then you just buy more premium talent. This business of having to lose to build a cheap winner is a scam.

You dont seem to understand rebuilds.
1. Contracts like arenado and contreras will be coming off the bokms creating up more room for signing high dollar free agents since whether we like it or not dewitt is issuing a budget.
2. Any free agent is usually aged. If we sign these high dollar older free agents while our youngsters are still developing and not in prime yet, them its wasted and by the time pur youngsters reach their prime those guys are starting to downslide like arenado and those contracts prevent you from signing new free agents.

3. Just grow up. If you dont like it stop following cardinals. But management was actually up front for once this season. Maybe dont invest so much of your life into a sports team that rebuilding will set you in a whiny mood all year.

What exactly were they “up front” about? Their definition of “reset” was “do nothing.” They let expiring contracts (Goldschmidt, Lynn, Gibson) walk and didn’t replace them. That’s it. Didn’t move Helsley, Fedde, or anyone else with value. They did NOTHING, and wondered why no one shows up to the ballpark.

Cardinals fans aren’t idiots. If you’re going to compete, compete. If you’re going to rebuild, rebuild. But FFS, do SOMETHING.

Wattage wrote: ↑20 Jul 2025 11:33 am

CCard wrote: ↑20 Jul 2025 09:37 am This is the problem with the rebuild argument. If you're okay with paying for premium talent then why not be okay with it now? Why wait and make the fans suffer through mediocre talent? Make your case. To me, there is no good excuse. Sure losing gives you a better draft slot, but it's also LOSING! If you buy the premium talent now, they'll still be here when your superstar draft picks come up and if not then you just buy more premium talent. This business of having to lose to build a cheap winner is a scam.

You dont seem to understand rebuilds.
1. Contracts like arenado and contreras will be coming off the bokms creating up more room for signing high dollar free agents since whether we like it or not dewitt is issuing a budget.
2. Any free agent is usually aged. If we sign these high dollar older free agents while our youngsters are still developing and not in prime yet, them its wasted and by the time pur youngsters reach their prime those guys are starting to downslide like arenado and those contracts prevent you from signing new free agents.

3. Just grow up. If you dont like it stop following cardinals. But management was actually up front for once this season. Maybe dont invest so much of your life into a sports team that rebuilding will set you in a whiny mood all year.

1. Replacing free agent stars contracts with free agent stars is acceptable. If they're replaced with adequate talent.
2. Not really. Free agents are usually in their prime or a little bit older by the time they reach free agency. A good example is Helsley. As for Arenado, show me the better third baseman on the roster.
3. Up yours. My opinion is just as valid as yours. Don't like it? Don't read it.

Bully4you wrote: ↑20 Jul 2025 09:50 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑20 Jul 2025 09:45 am Lots of money coming off the books (just under $40M) + BDWJr needs to add another $20M to that total.

Give C. Bloom $60M to work w/and I bet he'd fix Mo's screwed up roster.

I wonder what the FA market looks like.
I haven't checked.
Man, they've run this team so far into the ground, it will be hard to convince anyone to sign even.

No it won't.

rockondlouie wrote: ↑20 Jul 2025 09:53 am

Bully4you wrote: ↑20 Jul 2025 09:50 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑20 Jul 2025 09:45 am Lots of money coming off the books (just under $40M) + BDWJr needs to add another $20M to that total.

Give C. Bloom $60M to work w/and I bet he'd fix Mo's screwed up roster.

I wonder what the FA market looks like.
I haven't checked.
Man, they've run this team so far into the ground, it will be hard to convince anyone to sign even.

Here ya' go bully!

https://www.mlb.com/news/baseball-s-nex ... nt-classes

These are not the RH power hitters you are looking for.

Tucker and Schwarber and *yawn* on everybody else. Also *yawn* on the starting pitching.

The Cardinals won't be built through FA. They also are not competing for a deep run in the playoffs in 2026. Get used to it now.

RunSup wrote: ↑20 Jul 2025 12:58 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑20 Jul 2025 09:53 am

Bully4you wrote: ↑20 Jul 2025 09:50 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑20 Jul 2025 09:45 am Lots of money coming off the books (just under $40M) + BDWJr needs to add another $20M to that total.

Give C. Bloom $60M to work w/and I bet he'd fix Mo's screwed up roster.

I wonder what the FA market looks like.
I haven't checked.
Man, they've run this team so far into the ground, it will be hard to convince anyone to sign even.

Here ya' go bully!

https://www.mlb.com/news/baseball-s-nex ... nt-classes

These are not the RH power hitters you are looking for.

Tucker and Schwarber and *yawn* on everybody else. Also *yawn* on the starting pitching.

The Cardinals won't be built through FA. They also are not competing for a deep run in the playoffs in 2026. Get used to it now.

Frankly, I’m OK with them not competing for a deep run in 26 — providing that there’s progress. No more treading water, playing to be just good enough, etc. Have a plan, be transparent about what the plan is, follow through on the plan, show improvement, and they’ll get the fans back.

Cardinals4Life wrote: ↑20 Jul 2025 09:42 am

CCard wrote: ↑20 Jul 2025 09:37 am This is the problem with the rebuild argument. If you're okay with paying for premium talent then why not be okay with it now? Why wait and make the fans suffer through mediocre talent? Make your case. To me, there is no good excuse. Sure losing gives you a better draft slot, but it's also LOSING! If you buy the premium talent now, they'll still be here when your superstar draft picks come up and if not then you just buy more premium talent. This business of having to lose to build a cheap winner is a scam.

Correct. No reason we shouldn't be players in the FA market this offseason. We know what we have and what we need. Not filling in with free agency is just cheap - which is EXACTLY what they will do.

Good businessmen wouldn’t sign players to a long term FA contract with a possible lock out looming.

Cranny wrote: ↑20 Jul 2025 13:47 pm

Cardinals4Life wrote: ↑20 Jul 2025 09:42 am

CCard wrote: ↑20 Jul 2025 09:37 am This is the problem with the rebuild argument. If you're okay with paying for premium talent then why not be okay with it now? Why wait and make the fans suffer through mediocre talent? Make your case. To me, there is no good excuse. Sure losing gives you a better draft slot, but it's also LOSING! If you buy the premium talent now, they'll still be here when your superstar draft picks come up and if not then you just buy more premium talent. This business of having to lose to build a cheap winner is a scam.

Correct. No reason we shouldn't be players in the FA market this offseason. We know what we have and what we need. Not filling in with free agency is just cheap - which is EXACTLY what they will do.

Good businessmen wouldn’t sign players to a long term FA contract with a possible lock out looming.

Good businessmen also don’t intentionally let the product atrophy to the point where large portions of the customers base have chosen not to consume the product. They also don’t send their kids out into the community and blame said customers while protecting the employees that furthered the atrophy in the first place.

Just saying.

Cranny wrote: ↑20 Jul 2025 13:47 pm

Cardinals4Life wrote: ↑20 Jul 2025 09:42 am

CCard wrote: ↑20 Jul 2025 09:37 am This is the problem with the rebuild argument. If you're okay with paying for premium talent then why not be okay with it now? Why wait and make the fans suffer through mediocre talent? Make your case. To me, there is no good excuse. Sure losing gives you a better draft slot, but it's also LOSING! If you buy the premium talent now, they'll still be here when your superstar draft picks come up and if not then you just buy more premium talent. This business of having to lose to build a cheap winner is a scam.

Correct. No reason we shouldn't be players in the FA market this offseason. We know what we have and what we need. Not filling in with free agency is just cheap - which is EXACTLY what they will do.

Good businessmen wouldn’t sign players to a long term FA contract with a possible lock out looming.

Just another excuse (in the line of many) that we here every year.

RunSup wrote: ↑20 Jul 2025 12:58 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑20 Jul 2025 09:53 am

Bully4you wrote: ↑20 Jul 2025 09:50 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑20 Jul 2025 09:45 am Lots of money coming off the books (just under $40M) + BDWJr needs to add another $20M to that total.

Give C. Bloom $60M to work w/and I bet he'd fix Mo's screwed up roster.

I wonder what the FA market looks like.
I haven't checked.
Man, they've run this team so far into the ground, it will be hard to convince anyone to sign even.

Here ya' go bully!

https://www.mlb.com/news/baseball-s-nex ... nt-classes

These are not the RH power hitters you are looking for.

Tucker and Schwarber and *yawn* on everybody else. Also *yawn* on the starting pitching.

The Cardinals won't be built through FA. They also are not competing for a deep run in the playoffs in 2026. Get used to it now.

I agree with you on the hitters, but Cease and Valdez are SP’s we could build a rotation around.

Cardinals4Life wrote: ↑20 Jul 2025 14:12 pm

Cranny wrote: ↑20 Jul 2025 13:47 pm

Cardinals4Life wrote: ↑20 Jul 2025 09:42 am

CCard wrote: ↑20 Jul 2025 09:37 am This is the problem with the rebuild argument. If you're okay with paying for premium talent then why not be okay with it now? Why wait and make the fans suffer through mediocre talent? Make your case. To me, there is no good excuse. Sure losing gives you a better draft slot, but it's also LOSING! If you buy the premium talent now, they'll still be here when your superstar draft picks come up and if not then you just buy more premium talent. This business of having to lose to build a cheap winner is a scam.

Correct. No reason we shouldn't be players in the FA market this offseason. We know what we have and what we need. Not filling in with free agency is just cheap - which is EXACTLY what they will do.

Good businessmen wouldn’t sign players to a long term FA contract with a possible lock out looming.

Just another excuse (in the line of many) that we here every year.

The excuses wouldn’t be so galling if people didn’t buy them hook, line, and sinker. Thankfully that number decreases every year.

rockondlouie wrote: ↑20 Jul 2025 09:45 am Lots of money coming off the books (just under $40M) + BDWJr needs to add another $20M to that total.

Give C. Bloom $60M to work w/and I bet he'd fix Mo's screwed up roster.

I like your optimism, but I don't think this team is 60 million away from running with Milwaukee and Chicago. I agree with the others that we need more developed talent first. If this were six, seven years ago, then I think 60 million sets up nicely.

To your point, though, if Gorman and Burly can keep their consistency, and if Scott can take a step forward and finish the year hitting around .250, and if Walker can show us SOMETHING...then I'd change my tune. To my mind, though, that's a LOT to ask for, and a lot to hope breaks right. And that's just the hitting.

Strummer Jones wrote: ↑20 Jul 2025 14:36 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑20 Jul 2025 09:45 am Lots of money coming off the books (just under $40M) + BDWJr needs to add another $20M to that total.

Give C. Bloom $60M to work w/and I bet he'd fix Mo's screwed up roster.

I like your optimism, but I don't think this team is 60 million away from running with Milwaukee and Chicago. I agree with the others that we need more developed talent first. If this were six, seven years ago, then I think 60 million sets up nicely.

To your point, though, if Gorman and Burly can keep their consistency, and if Scott can take a step forward and finish the year hitting around .250, and if Walker can show us SOMETHING...then I'd change my tune. To my mind, though, that's a LOT to ask for, and a lot to hope breaks right. And that's just the hitting.

Do both!

You can NEVER, EVER draft & develop alone a championship team, even the Dodgers go outside their system for multiple star players.

Bloom/Cerfolio have repaired the broken minor league system!

Now BDWJr needs to give Bloom the payroll he needs to fill in the missing pieces via trades and FA.

JMO

desertrat23 wrote: ↑20 Jul 2025 11:41 am

Wattage wrote: ↑20 Jul 2025 11:33 am

CCard wrote: ↑20 Jul 2025 09:37 am This is the problem with the rebuild argument. If you're okay with paying for premium talent then why not be okay with it now? Why wait and make the fans suffer through mediocre talent? Make your case. To me, there is no good excuse. Sure losing gives you a better draft slot, but it's also LOSING! If you buy the premium talent now, they'll still be here when your superstar draft picks come up and if not then you just buy more premium talent. This business of having to lose to build a cheap winner is a scam.

You dont seem to understand rebuilds.
1. Contracts like arenado and contreras will be coming off the bokms creating up more room for signing high dollar free agents since whether we like it or not dewitt is issuing a budget.
2. Any free agent is usually aged. If we sign these high dollar older free agents while our youngsters are still developing and not in prime yet, them its wasted and by the time pur youngsters reach their prime those guys are starting to downslide like arenado and those contracts prevent you from signing new free agents.

3. Just grow up. If you dont like it stop following cardinals. But management was actually up front for once this season. Maybe dont invest so much of your life into a sports team that rebuilding will set you in a whiny mood all year.

What exactly were they “up front” about? Their definition of “reset” was “do nothing.” They let expiring contracts (Goldschmidt, Lynn, Gibson) walk and didn’t replace them. That’s it. Didn’t move Helsley, Fedde, or anyone else with value. They did NOTHING, and wondered why no one shows up to the ballpark.

Cardinals fans aren’t idiots. If you’re going to compete, compete. If you’re going to rebuild, rebuild. But FFS, do SOMETHING.

Exactly! This was another example of Mozeliak half-assing his job. One lazy putz. Thankfully that do-nothing will be out of the picture come October.

rockondlouie wrote: ↑20 Jul 2025 14:39 pm

Strummer Jones wrote: ↑20 Jul 2025 14:36 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑20 Jul 2025 09:45 am Lots of money coming off the books (just under $40M) + BDWJr needs to add another $20M to that total.

Give C. Bloom $60M to work w/and I bet he'd fix Mo's screwed up roster.

I like your optimism, but I don't think this team is 60 million away from running with Milwaukee and Chicago. I agree with the others that we need more developed talent first. If this were six, seven years ago, then I think 60 million sets up nicely.

To your point, though, if Gorman and Burly can keep their consistency, and if Scott can take a step forward and finish the year hitting around .250, and if Walker can show us SOMETHING...then I'd change my tune. To my mind, though, that's a LOT to ask for, and a lot to hope breaks right. And that's just the hitting.

Do both!

You can NEVER, EVER draft & develop alone a championship team, even the Dodgers go outside their system for multiple star players.

Bloom/Cerfolio have repaired the broken minor league system!

Now BDWJr needs to give Bloom the payroll he needs to fill in the missing pieces via trades and FA.

JMO

I definitely don't disagree with doing both, but I don't think this offseason is the time to do it.

Here's my thinking:

The only prospect that I feel somewhat confident in making the next step next season is JJ. That probably covers you at second base. And allows Donovan to move to third, possibly (if Gorman isn't the answer), or LF (if Noot is traded--and he should be. Or if Herrera doesn't move out there).

First base? I like Contreras there. He's been above average on defense, and his bat is fine. But he also is getting older.

Shortstop. Winn, for sure, though his bat hasn't been that great this year. But you'd be hard pressed to find a better fit defensively here.

Third base...who the heck knows. Nado is still a glove juggernaut. But that bat stinks. Maybe Gorman? Maybe Donovan?

The outfield is a mess. I feel comfortable with Burly. Scott is at least defensively able, and has periods where his bat plays. What happens with left field? Herrera? Donovan? Where's Walker at? What's Baez doing for the rest of this year and spring of next? To me, this is the biggest blunder of Mo's past several years.

Depending on how the outfield shakes out, I expect Herrera/Burly/Gorman to take DH.

And the pitching...oof.

Gray will likely return. Hopefully he'll be closer to what he's been during his time here rather than his past couple starts.
Mikolas and Fedde will need to be replaced. You've got to figure McGreevy gets one of those jobs.
Pallante...probably fine if he's actually the #4 or #5 instead of the #3 that he's forced to be.
Libby...Fine with him, but it's also fair to wonder if this year's innings load affects him going into next season.

I feel oddly fine about the bullpen. Good relievers can always be found, and it's a position that you should invest SOME in, but the less the better.

One area that I hope they're planning to drop money in is the starting pitching. Gray's fading, Libby is inexperienced, McGreevy will be, and it wouldn't be the end of the world if Pallante wasn't there. Especially with Doyle on the way, I want a STRONG ace to show him the ropes.