STLtoday.com

rockondlouie wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 10:45 am

BrockFloodMaris wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 09:58 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 09:02 am

Jatalk wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 08:54 am To see what this team really needs to be competitive in 2026 or even 2027. Consider this:

Need better catching not only defensively but hopefully with a bat.

-BERNAL?

Need two starting pitchers even if you bring McG up

-Agreed. We'd like to think "Q" is one of them.

Need to fortify bullpen with a couple of arms including a closer

-BIG HOLE once R. Helsley is gone. I've been saying for going on two years now CONVERT T. HENCE to the close role.

Probably need a third baseman with power. Still not sure about Gorman.

-Unless he really turns it around, Gorman isn't the answer.

Need two outfielders assuming Walker gone and Donovan playing second. Maybe Sagesse at 2nd, Donovan in outfield.

-JJW will be the 2nd baseman. Donny will be in LF.

Need a good right hander off the bench. Overall depth is a problem.

Sure you can slot in prospects. But to be truly competitive there is a lot to do. Sort of overwhelming.

BDWJr has to give C. Bloom the same $175-180M payroll he gave Mo, NO WAY all these holes can filled from within.

JMO

BDW will not give Bloom that much financial support right out of the gate. Bloom will need to deliver some stars to the MLB roster from the farm, before he gets that type of support.

Disagree

Dewitt knows he better or he's setting Bloom up for failure just like the BoSox ownership did and Dewitt will once again be looking at drawing way, way under 2.5M.

My not be in the $170+M range in 2026 but it d a m n well better be a whole lot more than the $130M it is this season.

Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 10:54 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 10:45 am

BrockFloodMaris wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 09:58 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 09:02 am

Jatalk wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 08:54 am To see what this team really needs to be competitive in 2026 or even 2027. Consider this:

Need better catching not only defensively but hopefully with a bat.

-BERNAL?

Need two starting pitchers even if you bring McG up

-Agreed. We'd like to think "Q" is one of them.

Need to fortify bullpen with a couple of arms including a closer

-BIG HOLE once R. Helsley is gone. I've been saying for going on two years now CONVERT T. HENCE to the close role.

Probably need a third baseman with power. Still not sure about Gorman.

-Unless he really turns it around, Gorman isn't the answer.

Need two outfielders assuming Walker gone and Donovan playing second. Maybe Sagesse at 2nd, Donovan in outfield.

-JJW will be the 2nd baseman. Donny will be in LF.

Need a good right hander off the bench. Overall depth is a problem.

Sure you can slot in prospects. But to be truly competitive there is a lot to do. Sort of overwhelming.

BDWJr has to give C. Bloom the same $175-180M payroll he gave Mo, NO WAY all these holes can filled from within.

JMO

BDW will not give Bloom that much financial support right out of the gate. Bloom will need to deliver some stars to the MLB roster from the farm, before he gets that type of support.

Disagree

Dewitt knows he better or he's setting Bloom up for failure just like the BoSox ownership did and Dewitt will once again be looking at drawing way, way under 2.5M.

My not be in the $170+M range in 2026 but it d a m n well better be a whole lot more than the $130M it is this season.

I would be shocked if payroll is higher than this season. There are some things shifting, so it's hard to know for sure, but I don't see them signing anything but one year deals next offseason.

rockondlouie wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 09:02 am

Jatalk wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 08:54 am To see what this team really needs to be competitive in 2026 or even 2027. Consider this:

Need better catching not only defensively but hopefully with a bat.

-BERNAL?

Need two starting pitchers even if you bring McG up

-Agreed. We'd like to think "Q" is one of them.

Need to fortify bullpen with a couple of arms including a closer

-BIG HOLE once R. Helsley is gone. I've been saying for going on two years now CONVERT T. HENCE to the close role.

Probably need a third baseman with power. Still not sure about Gorman.

-Unless he really turns it around, Gorman isn't the answer.

Need two outfielders assuming Walker gone and Donovan playing second. Maybe Sagesse at 2nd, Donovan in outfield.

-JJW will be the 2nd baseman. Donny will be in LF.

Need a good right hander off the bench. Overall depth is a problem.

Sure you can slot in prospects. But to be truly competitive there is a lot to do. Sort of overwhelming.

BDWJr has to give C. Bloom the same $175-180M payroll he gave Mo, NO WAY all these holes can filled from within.

JMO

rockondlouie wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 11:02 am

Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 10:54 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 10:45 am

BrockFloodMaris wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 09:58 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 09:02 am

Jatalk wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 08:54 am To see what this team really needs to be competitive in 2026 or even 2027. Consider this:

Need better catching not only defensively but hopefully with a bat.

-BERNAL?

Need two starting pitchers even if you bring McG up

-Agreed. We'd like to think "Q" is one of them.

Need to fortify bullpen with a couple of arms including a closer

-BIG HOLE once R. Helsley is gone. I've been saying for going on two years now CONVERT T. HENCE to the close role.

Probably need a third baseman with power. Still not sure about Gorman.

-Unless he really turns it around, Gorman isn't the answer.

Need two outfielders assuming Walker gone and Donovan playing second. Maybe Sagesse at 2nd, Donovan in outfield.

-JJW will be the 2nd baseman. Donny will be in LF.

Need a good right hander off the bench. Overall depth is a problem.

Sure you can slot in prospects. But to be truly competitive there is a lot to do. Sort of overwhelming.

BDWJr has to give C. Bloom the same $175-180M payroll he gave Mo, NO WAY all these holes can filled from within.

JMO

BDW will not give Bloom that much financial support right out of the gate. Bloom will need to deliver some stars to the MLB roster from the farm, before he gets that type of support.

Disagree

Dewitt knows he better or he's setting Bloom up for failure just like the BoSox ownership did and Dewitt will once again be looking at drawing way, way under 2.5M.

My not be in the $170+M range in 2026 but it d a m n well better be a whole lot more than the $130M it is this season.

I would be shocked if payroll is higher than this season. There are some things shifting, so it's hard to know for sure, but I don't see them signing anything but one year deals next offseason.

It has to be TB.

He won't go wild ($200+M) but a market like St. Louis that had drawn 3+M for multiple decades before 2024 won't stand for a Royals, Rockies, Brewers like payroll.

Of course they have to draft & develop.

But Dewitt also has the resources to supplement w/players that the organization simply doesn't have in the pipeline.

I get it, the "potential" lockout.

But this is way, way different from the mid 90's (last work stoppage that cost them games).

Franchises are now worth BILLIONS and players have contracts worth MULTI-MILLIONS!

There's too much money to be lost this time, let's hope there isn't a lockout/strike.

And I'm okay w/Bloom only signing players to one-two year deals as long as they're smart signings that fill a need.

Either way, Dewitt knows he has to spend some money in 2026 or he's looking at a BIG decline in franchise value!

Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 12:07 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 11:02 am

Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 10:54 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 10:45 am

BrockFloodMaris wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 09:58 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 09:02 am

Jatalk wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 08:54 am To see what this team really needs to be competitive in 2026 or even 2027. Consider this:

Need better catching not only defensively but hopefully with a bat.

-BERNAL?

Need two starting pitchers even if you bring McG up

-Agreed. We'd like to think "Q" is one of them.

Need to fortify bullpen with a couple of arms including a closer

-BIG HOLE once R. Helsley is gone. I've been saying for going on two years now CONVERT T. HENCE to the close role.

Probably need a third baseman with power. Still not sure about Gorman.

-Unless he really turns it around, Gorman isn't the answer.

Need two outfielders assuming Walker gone and Donovan playing second. Maybe Sagesse at 2nd, Donovan in outfield.

-JJW will be the 2nd baseman. Donny will be in LF.

Need a good right hander off the bench. Overall depth is a problem.

Sure you can slot in prospects. But to be truly competitive there is a lot to do. Sort of overwhelming.

BDWJr has to give C. Bloom the same $175-180M payroll he gave Mo, NO WAY all these holes can filled from within.

JMO

BDW will not give Bloom that much financial support right out of the gate. Bloom will need to deliver some stars to the MLB roster from the farm, before he gets that type of support.

Disagree

Dewitt knows he better or he's setting Bloom up for failure just like the BoSox ownership did and Dewitt will once again be looking at drawing way, way under 2.5M.

My not be in the $170+M range in 2026 but it d a m n well better be a whole lot more than the $130M it is this season.

I would be shocked if payroll is higher than this season. There are some things shifting, so it's hard to know for sure, but I don't see them signing anything but one year deals next offseason.

It has to be TB.

He won't go wild ($200+M) but a market like St. Louis that had drawn 3+M for multiple decades before 2024 won't stand for a Royals, Rockies, Brewers like payroll.

Of course they have to draft & develop.

But Dewitt also has the resources to supplement w/players that the organization simply doesn't have in the pipeline.

I get it, the "potential" lockout.

But this is way, way different from the mid 90's (last work stoppage that cost them games).

Franchises are now worth BILLIONS and players have contracts worth MULTI-MILLIONS!

There's too much money to be lost this time, let's hope there isn't a lockout/strike.

And I'm okay w/Bloom only signing players to one-two year deals as long as they're smart signings that fill a need.

Either way, Dewitt knows he has to spend some money in 2026 or he's looking at a BIG decline in franchise value!

I always enjoy talkin' baseball and I like to hear what others think about baseball topics, even if they disagree with my own. That said, they don't "have to" increase spending and I don't believe they will. My own opinion (emphasis on opinion) is that this labor showdown will be the big one. I think they will both hunker down on the salary cap issue and I don't think there will be an easy, quick fix. If an owner believes that there will be substantially new rules coming out of the CBA which may include a salary cap, or a years limit, or whatever, they will want as few long term commitments on the books as they can get. They can go into a situation where the big boys are capped out and they will be well below the cap. It would be an unusual opportunity. It also would affect the way extensions are handled. If they end up sitting out 2027, when that is done they would also have Arenado, Gray, and Contreras off the books. Zero long-term, or big dollar commitments. I don't think they will do anything this winter that interferes with that.

Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 12:07 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 11:02 am

Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 10:54 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 10:45 am

BrockFloodMaris wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 09:58 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 09:02 am

Jatalk wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 08:54 am To see what this team really needs to be competitive in 2026 or even 2027. Consider this:

Need better catching not only defensively but hopefully with a bat.

-BERNAL?

Need two starting pitchers even if you bring McG up

-Agreed. We'd like to think "Q" is one of them.

Need to fortify bullpen with a couple of arms including a closer

-BIG HOLE once R. Helsley is gone. I've been saying for going on two years now CONVERT T. HENCE to the close role.

Probably need a third baseman with power. Still not sure about Gorman.

-Unless he really turns it around, Gorman isn't the answer.

Need two outfielders assuming Walker gone and Donovan playing second. Maybe Sagesse at 2nd, Donovan in outfield.

-JJW will be the 2nd baseman. Donny will be in LF.

Need a good right hander off the bench. Overall depth is a problem.

Sure you can slot in prospects. But to be truly competitive there is a lot to do. Sort of overwhelming.

BDWJr has to give C. Bloom the same $175-180M payroll he gave Mo, NO WAY all these holes can filled from within.

JMO

BDW will not give Bloom that much financial support right out of the gate. Bloom will need to deliver some stars to the MLB roster from the farm, before he gets that type of support.

Disagree

Dewitt knows he better or he's setting Bloom up for failure just like the BoSox ownership did and Dewitt will once again be looking at drawing way, way under 2.5M.

My not be in the $170+M range in 2026 but it d a m n well better be a whole lot more than the $130M it is this season.

I would be shocked if payroll is higher than this season. There are some things shifting, so it's hard to know for sure, but I don't see them signing anything but one year deals next offseason.

It has to be TB.

He won't go wild ($200+M) but a market like St. Louis that had drawn 3+M for multiple decades before 2024 won't stand for a Royals, Rockies, Brewers like payroll.

Of course they have to draft & develop.

But Dewitt also has the resources to supplement w/players that the organization simply doesn't have in the pipeline.

I get it, the "potential" lockout.

But this is way, way different from the mid 90's (last work stoppage that cost them games).

Franchises are now worth BILLIONS and players have contracts worth MULTI-MILLIONS!

There's too much money to be lost this time, let's hope there isn't a lockout/strike.

And I'm okay w/Bloom only signing players to one-two year deals as long as they're smart signings that fill a need.

Either way, Dewitt knows he has to spend some money in 2026 or he's looking at a BIG decline in franchise value!

I always enjoy talkin' baseball and I like to hear what others think about baseball topics, even if they disagree with my own. That said, they don't "have to" increase spending and I don't believe they will. My own opinion (emphasis on opinion) is that this labor showdown will be the big one. I think they will both hunker down on the salary cap issue and I don't think there will be an easy, quick fix. If an owner believes that there will be substantially new rules coming out of the CBA which may include a salary cap, or a years limit, or whatever, they will want as few long term commitments on the books as they can get. They can go into a situation where the big boys are capped out and they will be well below the cap. It would be an unusual opportunity. It also would affect the way extensions are handled. If they end up sitting out 2027, when that is done they would also have Arenado, Gray, and Contreras off the books. Zero long-term, or big dollar commitments. I don't think they will do anything this winter that interferes with that.

JuanAgosto wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 10:24 am Bloom needs the freedom and intestinal fortitude to do a Herzog style overhaul to the roster. Make it 1980-81 all over again!

Jatalk wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 08:54 am To see what this team really needs to be competitive in 2026 or even 2027. Consider this:

Need better catching not only defensively but hopefully with a bat.

Need two starting pitchers even if you bring McG up

Need to fortify bullpen with a couple of arms including a closer

Probably need a third baseman with power. Still not sure about Gorman.

Need two outfielders assuming Walker gone and Donovan playing second. Maybe Sagesse at 2nd, Donovan in outfield.

Need a good right hander off the bench. Overall depth is a problem.

Sure you can slot in prospects. But to be truly competitive there is a lot to do. Sort of overwhelming.

rockondlouie wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 12:17 pm

Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 12:07 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 11:02 am

Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 10:54 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 10:45 am

BrockFloodMaris wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 09:58 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 09:02 am

Jatalk wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 08:54 am To see what this team really needs to be competitive in 2026 or even 2027. Consider this:

Need better catching not only defensively but hopefully with a bat.

-BERNAL?

Need two starting pitchers even if you bring McG up

-Agreed. We'd like to think "Q" is one of them.

Need to fortify bullpen with a couple of arms including a closer

-BIG HOLE once R. Helsley is gone. I've been saying for going on two years now CONVERT T. HENCE to the close role.

Probably need a third baseman with power. Still not sure about Gorman.

-Unless he really turns it around, Gorman isn't the answer.

Need two outfielders assuming Walker gone and Donovan playing second. Maybe Sagesse at 2nd, Donovan in outfield.

-JJW will be the 2nd baseman. Donny will be in LF.

Need a good right hander off the bench. Overall depth is a problem.

Sure you can slot in prospects. But to be truly competitive there is a lot to do. Sort of overwhelming.

BDWJr has to give C. Bloom the same $175-180M payroll he gave Mo, NO WAY all these holes can filled from within.

JMO

BDW will not give Bloom that much financial support right out of the gate. Bloom will need to deliver some stars to the MLB roster from the farm, before he gets that type of support.

Disagree

Dewitt knows he better or he's setting Bloom up for failure just like the BoSox ownership did and Dewitt will once again be looking at drawing way, way under 2.5M.

My not be in the $170+M range in 2026 but it d a m n well better be a whole lot more than the $130M it is this season.

I would be shocked if payroll is higher than this season. There are some things shifting, so it's hard to know for sure, but I don't see them signing anything but one year deals next offseason.

It has to be TB.

He won't go wild ($200+M) but a market like St. Louis that had drawn 3+M for multiple decades before 2024 won't stand for a Royals, Rockies, Brewers like payroll.

Of course they have to draft & develop.

But Dewitt also has the resources to supplement w/players that the organization simply doesn't have in the pipeline.

I get it, the "potential" lockout.

But this is way, way different from the mid 90's (last work stoppage that cost them games).

Franchises are now worth BILLIONS and players have contracts worth MULTI-MILLIONS!

There's too much money to be lost this time, let's hope there isn't a lockout/strike.

And I'm okay w/Bloom only signing players to one-two year deals as long as they're smart signings that fill a need.

Either way, Dewitt knows he has to spend some money in 2026 or he's looking at a BIG decline in franchise value!

I always enjoy talkin' baseball and I like to hear what others think about baseball topics, even if they disagree with my own. That said, they don't "have to" increase spending and I don't believe they will. My own opinion (emphasis on opinion) is that this labor showdown will be the big one. I think they will both hunker down on the salary cap issue and I don't think there will be an easy, quick fix. If an owner believes that there will be substantially new rules coming out of the CBA which may include a salary cap, or a years limit, or whatever, they will want as few long term commitments on the books as they can get. They can go into a situation where the big boys are capped out and they will be well below the cap. It would be an unusual opportunity. It also would affect the way extensions are handled. If they end up sitting out 2027, when that is done they would also have Arenado, Gray, and Contreras off the books. Zero long-term, or big dollar commitments. I don't think they will do anything this winter that interferes with that.

Same here, always enjoy civil baseball discussions and respect all opinions.

But (IMO) he does have to spend if he wants a winning team that leads him back to 3M in attendance.

Dewitt's $2.5B franchise valuation was based hugely on that 3+M each and every season.

Without it, he's looking at (potentially) a decline in the hundreds of millions!

I'm really interested to see what Forbes values them at w/a 2.2-2.5M attendance.

I don't ever see the MLBPA agreeing to a salary cap, that's been taboo for them since the days of Marvin Miller.

I can, however, see a cap on deferred money (a max of say $3M/yr deferred for the length of the contract).

Something that prevents a team like the Dodgers from using that payroll trick to sign S. Ohtani.

But again, I don't see any lockout/strike that cost them more than a handful of games.

Players vs players in the mid 1990's have made enough money to withstand a full year if needed and owners know it.

Too much $$$$ to lose on BOTH sides for them to do that.

JMO

Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 12:29 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 12:17 pm

Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 12:07 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 11:02 am

Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 10:54 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 10:45 am

BrockFloodMaris wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 09:58 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 09:02 am

Jatalk wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 08:54 am To see what this team really needs to be competitive in 2026 or even 2027. Consider this:

Need better catching not only defensively but hopefully with a bat.

-BERNAL?

Need two starting pitchers even if you bring McG up

-Agreed. We'd like to think "Q" is one of them.

Need to fortify bullpen with a couple of arms including a closer

-BIG HOLE once R. Helsley is gone. I've been saying for going on two years now CONVERT T. HENCE to the close role.

Probably need a third baseman with power. Still not sure about Gorman.

-Unless he really turns it around, Gorman isn't the answer.

Need two outfielders assuming Walker gone and Donovan playing second. Maybe Sagesse at 2nd, Donovan in outfield.

-JJW will be the 2nd baseman. Donny will be in LF.

Need a good right hander off the bench. Overall depth is a problem.

Sure you can slot in prospects. But to be truly competitive there is a lot to do. Sort of overwhelming.

BDWJr has to give C. Bloom the same $175-180M payroll he gave Mo, NO WAY all these holes can filled from within.

JMO

BDW will not give Bloom that much financial support right out of the gate. Bloom will need to deliver some stars to the MLB roster from the farm, before he gets that type of support.

Disagree

Dewitt knows he better or he's setting Bloom up for failure just like the BoSox ownership did and Dewitt will once again be looking at drawing way, way under 2.5M.

My not be in the $170+M range in 2026 but it d a m n well better be a whole lot more than the $130M it is this season.

I would be shocked if payroll is higher than this season. There are some things shifting, so it's hard to know for sure, but I don't see them signing anything but one year deals next offseason.

It has to be TB.

He won't go wild ($200+M) but a market like St. Louis that had drawn 3+M for multiple decades before 2024 won't stand for a Royals, Rockies, Brewers like payroll.

Of course they have to draft & develop.

But Dewitt also has the resources to supplement w/players that the organization simply doesn't have in the pipeline.

I get it, the "potential" lockout.

But this is way, way different from the mid 90's (last work stoppage that cost them games).

Franchises are now worth BILLIONS and players have contracts worth MULTI-MILLIONS!

There's too much money to be lost this time, let's hope there isn't a lockout/strike.

And I'm okay w/Bloom only signing players to one-two year deals as long as they're smart signings that fill a need.

Either way, Dewitt knows he has to spend some money in 2026 or he's looking at a BIG decline in franchise value!

I always enjoy talkin' baseball and I like to hear what others think about baseball topics, even if they disagree with my own. That said, they don't "have to" increase spending and I don't believe they will. My own opinion (emphasis on opinion) is that this labor showdown will be the big one. I think they will both hunker down on the salary cap issue and I don't think there will be an easy, quick fix. If an owner believes that there will be substantially new rules coming out of the CBA which may include a salary cap, or a years limit, or whatever, they will want as few long term commitments on the books as they can get. They can go into a situation where the big boys are capped out and they will be well below the cap. It would be an unusual opportunity. It also would affect the way extensions are handled. If they end up sitting out 2027, when that is done they would also have Arenado, Gray, and Contreras off the books. Zero long-term, or big dollar commitments. I don't think they will do anything this winter that interferes with that.

Same here, always enjoy civil baseball discussions and respect all opinions.

But (IMO) he does have to spend if he wants a winning team that leads him back to 3M in attendance.

Dewitt's $2.5B franchise valuation was based hugely on that 3+M each and every season.

Without it, he's looking at (potentially) a decline in the hundreds of millions!

I'm really interested to see what Forbes values them at w/a 2.2-2.5M attendance.

I don't ever see the MLBPA agreeing to a salary cap, that's been taboo for them since the days of Marvin Miller.

I can, however, see a cap on deferred money (a max of say $3M/yr deferred for the length of the contract).

Something that prevents a team like the Dodgers from using that payroll trick to sign S. Ohtani.

But again, I don't see any lockout/strike that cost them more than a handful of games.

Players vs players in the mid 1990's have made enough money to withstand a full year if needed and owners know it.

Too much $$$$ to lose on BOTH sides for them to do that.

JMO

I don't really see the value of the franchise being an issue. I haven't seen any examples of franchises in any sport declining in value. It may increase in value more slowly, but the value seems to be a one way street. Up. What I can see being an issue is the operating revenue. I do think the attendance level is critical for the Cardinals and their cash flow and operating budget. The attendance matters. One thing billionaires do better than the rest of us is, they play the long game. They will take the hit next year rather than slapping a band aid on the problem. The will go for the big fix to their problem. I agree with you that the players are vehemently opposed to a cap- that's why I think this will be bloody.

kyace wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 14:13 pm If Gray stays healthy the rest of the season Cards should try to see if they can extend him though 2027. Sell him on the role as mentor to the young pitchers coming up. At least this will help with some veteran leadership at a not too costly or long term commitment.

rockondlouie wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 13:31 pm

Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 12:29 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 12:17 pm

Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 12:07 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 11:02 am

Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 10:54 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 10:45 am

BrockFloodMaris wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 09:58 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 09:02 am

Jatalk wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 08:54 am To see what this team really needs to be competitive in 2026 or even 2027. Consider this:

Need better catching not only defensively but hopefully with a bat.

-BERNAL?

Need two starting pitchers even if you bring McG up

-Agreed. We'd like to think "Q" is one of them.

Need to fortify bullpen with a couple of arms including a closer

-BIG HOLE once R. Helsley is gone. I've been saying for going on two years now CONVERT T. HENCE to the close role.

Probably need a third baseman with power. Still not sure about Gorman.

-Unless he really turns it around, Gorman isn't the answer.

Need two outfielders assuming Walker gone and Donovan playing second. Maybe Sagesse at 2nd, Donovan in outfield.

-JJW will be the 2nd baseman. Donny will be in LF.

Need a good right hander off the bench. Overall depth is a problem.

Sure you can slot in prospects. But to be truly competitive there is a lot to do. Sort of overwhelming.

BDWJr has to give C. Bloom the same $175-180M payroll he gave Mo, NO WAY all these holes can filled from within.

JMO

BDW will not give Bloom that much financial support right out of the gate. Bloom will need to deliver some stars to the MLB roster from the farm, before he gets that type of support.

Disagree

Dewitt knows he better or he's setting Bloom up for failure just like the BoSox ownership did and Dewitt will once again be looking at drawing way, way under 2.5M.

My not be in the $170+M range in 2026 but it d a m n well better be a whole lot more than the $130M it is this season.

I would be shocked if payroll is higher than this season. There are some things shifting, so it's hard to know for sure, but I don't see them signing anything but one year deals next offseason.

It has to be TB.

He won't go wild ($200+M) but a market like St. Louis that had drawn 3+M for multiple decades before 2024 won't stand for a Royals, Rockies, Brewers like payroll.

Of course they have to draft & develop.

But Dewitt also has the resources to supplement w/players that the organization simply doesn't have in the pipeline.

I get it, the "potential" lockout.

But this is way, way different from the mid 90's (last work stoppage that cost them games).

Franchises are now worth BILLIONS and players have contracts worth MULTI-MILLIONS!

There's too much money to be lost this time, let's hope there isn't a lockout/strike.

And I'm okay w/Bloom only signing players to one-two year deals as long as they're smart signings that fill a need.

Either way, Dewitt knows he has to spend some money in 2026 or he's looking at a BIG decline in franchise value!

I always enjoy talkin' baseball and I like to hear what others think about baseball topics, even if they disagree with my own. That said, they don't "have to" increase spending and I don't believe they will. My own opinion (emphasis on opinion) is that this labor showdown will be the big one. I think they will both hunker down on the salary cap issue and I don't think there will be an easy, quick fix. If an owner believes that there will be substantially new rules coming out of the CBA which may include a salary cap, or a years limit, or whatever, they will want as few long term commitments on the books as they can get. They can go into a situation where the big boys are capped out and they will be well below the cap. It would be an unusual opportunity. It also would affect the way extensions are handled. If they end up sitting out 2027, when that is done they would also have Arenado, Gray, and Contreras off the books. Zero long-term, or big dollar commitments. I don't think they will do anything this winter that interferes with that.

Same here, always enjoy civil baseball discussions and respect all opinions.

But (IMO) he does have to spend if he wants a winning team that leads him back to 3M in attendance.

Dewitt's $2.5B franchise valuation was based hugely on that 3+M each and every season.

Without it, he's looking at (potentially) a decline in the hundreds of millions!

I'm really interested to see what Forbes values them at w/a 2.2-2.5M attendance.

I don't ever see the MLBPA agreeing to a salary cap, that's been taboo for them since the days of Marvin Miller.

I can, however, see a cap on deferred money (a max of say $3M/yr deferred for the length of the contract).

Something that prevents a team like the Dodgers from using that payroll trick to sign S. Ohtani.

But again, I don't see any lockout/strike that cost them more than a handful of games.

Players vs players in the mid 1990's have made enough money to withstand a full year if needed and owners know it.

Too much $$$$ to lose on BOTH sides for them to do that.

JMO

I don't really see the value of the franchise being an issue. I haven't seen any examples of franchises in any sport declining in value. It may increase in value more slowly, but the value seems to be a one way street. Up. What I can see being an issue is the operating revenue. I do think the attendance level is critical for the Cardinals and their cash flow and operating budget. The attendance matters. One thing billionaires do better than the rest of us is, they play the long game. They will take the hit next year rather than slapping a band aid on the problem. The will go for the big fix to their problem. I agree with you that the players are vehemently opposed to a cap- that's why I think this will be bloody.

Oh that's the Golden Egg, capital appreciation and why the majority of teams are bought.

A team like the Cardinals, in a mid level market, would have their valuation based on revenues that were dependent on their upper MLB level attendance.

There's no way the team is worth the same $2.5B when it was drawing 3+M a year for decades if it's seeing a drop of 500,000+ in attendance along w/a worse local TV deal.

We also have to remember BDWjr is an old man, he can't play that "long game" much longer if he wants another championship.

He may not take it back to $180M in 2026 but he has to increase it well past this years level.

JMO

Cranny wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 15:14 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 13:31 pm

Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 12:29 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 12:17 pm

Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 12:07 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 11:02 am

Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 10:54 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 10:45 am

BrockFloodMaris wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 09:58 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 09:02 am

Jatalk wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 08:54 am To see what this team really needs to be competitive in 2026 or even 2027. Consider this:

Need better catching not only defensively but hopefully with a bat.

-BERNAL?

Need two starting pitchers even if you bring McG up

-Agreed. We'd like to think "Q" is one of them.

Need to fortify bullpen with a couple of arms including a closer

-BIG HOLE once R. Helsley is gone. I've been saying for going on two years now CONVERT T. HENCE to the close role.

Probably need a third baseman with power. Still not sure about Gorman.

-Unless he really turns it around, Gorman isn't the answer.

Need two outfielders assuming Walker gone and Donovan playing second. Maybe Sagesse at 2nd, Donovan in outfield.

-JJW will be the 2nd baseman. Donny will be in LF.

Need a good right hander off the bench. Overall depth is a problem.

Sure you can slot in prospects. But to be truly competitive there is a lot to do. Sort of overwhelming.

BDWJr has to give C. Bloom the same $175-180M payroll he gave Mo, NO WAY all these holes can filled from within.

JMO

BDW will not give Bloom that much financial support right out of the gate. Bloom will need to deliver some stars to the MLB roster from the farm, before he gets that type of support.

Disagree

Dewitt knows he better or he's setting Bloom up for failure just like the BoSox ownership did and Dewitt will once again be looking at drawing way, way under 2.5M.

My not be in the $170+M range in 2026 but it d a m n well better be a whole lot more than the $130M it is this season.

I would be shocked if payroll is higher than this season. There are some things shifting, so it's hard to know for sure, but I don't see them signing anything but one year deals next offseason.

It has to be TB.

He won't go wild ($200+M) but a market like St. Louis that had drawn 3+M for multiple decades before 2024 won't stand for a Royals, Rockies, Brewers like payroll.

Of course they have to draft & develop.

But Dewitt also has the resources to supplement w/players that the organization simply doesn't have in the pipeline.

I get it, the "potential" lockout.

But this is way, way different from the mid 90's (last work stoppage that cost them games).

Franchises are now worth BILLIONS and players have contracts worth MULTI-MILLIONS!

There's too much money to be lost this time, let's hope there isn't a lockout/strike.

And I'm okay w/Bloom only signing players to one-two year deals as long as they're smart signings that fill a need.

Either way, Dewitt knows he has to spend some money in 2026 or he's looking at a BIG decline in franchise value!

I always enjoy talkin' baseball and I like to hear what others think about baseball topics, even if they disagree with my own. That said, they don't "have to" increase spending and I don't believe they will. My own opinion (emphasis on opinion) is that this labor showdown will be the big one. I think they will both hunker down on the salary cap issue and I don't think there will be an easy, quick fix. If an owner believes that there will be substantially new rules coming out of the CBA which may include a salary cap, or a years limit, or whatever, they will want as few long term commitments on the books as they can get. They can go into a situation where the big boys are capped out and they will be well below the cap. It would be an unusual opportunity. It also would affect the way extensions are handled. If they end up sitting out 2027, when that is done they would also have Arenado, Gray, and Contreras off the books. Zero long-term, or big dollar commitments. I don't think they will do anything this winter that interferes with that.

Same here, always enjoy civil baseball discussions and respect all opinions.

But (IMO) he does have to spend if he wants a winning team that leads him back to 3M in attendance.

Dewitt's $2.5B franchise valuation was based hugely on that 3+M each and every season.

Without it, he's looking at (potentially) a decline in the hundreds of millions!

I'm really interested to see what Forbes values them at w/a 2.2-2.5M attendance.

I don't ever see the MLBPA agreeing to a salary cap, that's been taboo for them since the days of Marvin Miller.

I can, however, see a cap on deferred money (a max of say $3M/yr deferred for the length of the contract).

Something that prevents a team like the Dodgers from using that payroll trick to sign S. Ohtani.

But again, I don't see any lockout/strike that cost them more than a handful of games.

Players vs players in the mid 1990's have made enough money to withstand a full year if needed and owners know it.

Too much $$$$ to lose on BOTH sides for them to do that.

JMO

I don't really see the value of the franchise being an issue. I haven't seen any examples of franchises in any sport declining in value. It may increase in value more slowly, but the value seems to be a one way street. Up. What I can see being an issue is the operating revenue. I do think the attendance level is critical for the Cardinals and their cash flow and operating budget. The attendance matters. One thing billionaires do better than the rest of us is, they play the long game. They will take the hit next year rather than slapping a band aid on the problem. The will go for the big fix to their problem. I agree with you that the players are vehemently opposed to a cap- that's why I think this will be bloody.

Oh that's the Golden Egg, capital appreciation and why the majority of teams are bought.

A team like the Cardinals, in a mid level market, would have their valuation based on revenues that were dependent on their upper MLB level attendance.

There's no way the team is worth the same $2.5B when it was drawing 3+M a year for decades if it's seeing a drop of 500,000+ in attendance along w/a worse local TV deal.

We also have to remember BDWjr is an old man, he can't play that "long game" much longer if he wants another championship.

He may not take it back to $180M in 2026 but he has to increase it well past this years level.

JMO

He doesn’t need another championship. He’s had the experience and pleasure of several.

Cranny wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 15:14 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 13:31 pm

Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 12:29 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 12:17 pm

Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 12:07 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 11:02 am

Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 10:54 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 10:45 am

BrockFloodMaris wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 09:58 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 09:02 am

Jatalk wrote: ↑10 Jul 2025 08:54 am To see what this team really needs to be competitive in 2026 or even 2027. Consider this:

Need better catching not only defensively but hopefully with a bat.

-BERNAL?

Need two starting pitchers even if you bring McG up

-Agreed. We'd like to think "Q" is one of them.

Need to fortify bullpen with a couple of arms including a closer

-BIG HOLE once R. Helsley is gone. I've been saying for going on two years now CONVERT T. HENCE to the close role.

Probably need a third baseman with power. Still not sure about Gorman.

-Unless he really turns it around, Gorman isn't the answer.

Need two outfielders assuming Walker gone and Donovan playing second. Maybe Sagesse at 2nd, Donovan in outfield.

-JJW will be the 2nd baseman. Donny will be in LF.

Need a good right hander off the bench. Overall depth is a problem.

Sure you can slot in prospects. But to be truly competitive there is a lot to do. Sort of overwhelming.

BDWJr has to give C. Bloom the same $175-180M payroll he gave Mo, NO WAY all these holes can filled from within.

JMO

BDW will not give Bloom that much financial support right out of the gate. Bloom will need to deliver some stars to the MLB roster from the farm, before he gets that type of support.

Disagree

Dewitt knows he better or he's setting Bloom up for failure just like the BoSox ownership did and Dewitt will once again be looking at drawing way, way under 2.5M.

My not be in the $170+M range in 2026 but it d a m n well better be a whole lot more than the $130M it is this season.

I would be shocked if payroll is higher than this season. There are some things shifting, so it's hard to know for sure, but I don't see them signing anything but one year deals next offseason.

It has to be TB.

He won't go wild ($200+M) but a market like St. Louis that had drawn 3+M for multiple decades before 2024 won't stand for a Royals, Rockies, Brewers like payroll.

Of course they have to draft & develop.

But Dewitt also has the resources to supplement w/players that the organization simply doesn't have in the pipeline.

I get it, the "potential" lockout.

But this is way, way different from the mid 90's (last work stoppage that cost them games).

Franchises are now worth BILLIONS and players have contracts worth MULTI-MILLIONS!

There's too much money to be lost this time, let's hope there isn't a lockout/strike.

And I'm okay w/Bloom only signing players to one-two year deals as long as they're smart signings that fill a need.

Either way, Dewitt knows he has to spend some money in 2026 or he's looking at a BIG decline in franchise value!

I always enjoy talkin' baseball and I like to hear what others think about baseball topics, even if they disagree with my own. That said, they don't "have to" increase spending and I don't believe they will. My own opinion (emphasis on opinion) is that this labor showdown will be the big one. I think they will both hunker down on the salary cap issue and I don't think there will be an easy, quick fix. If an owner believes that there will be substantially new rules coming out of the CBA which may include a salary cap, or a years limit, or whatever, they will want as few long term commitments on the books as they can get. They can go into a situation where the big boys are capped out and they will be well below the cap. It would be an unusual opportunity. It also would affect the way extensions are handled. If they end up sitting out 2027, when that is done they would also have Arenado, Gray, and Contreras off the books. Zero long-term, or big dollar commitments. I don't think they will do anything this winter that interferes with that.

Same here, always enjoy civil baseball discussions and respect all opinions.

But (IMO) he does have to spend if he wants a winning team that leads him back to 3M in attendance.

Dewitt's $2.5B franchise valuation was based hugely on that 3+M each and every season.

Without it, he's looking at (potentially) a decline in the hundreds of millions!

I'm really interested to see what Forbes values them at w/a 2.2-2.5M attendance.

I don't ever see the MLBPA agreeing to a salary cap, that's been taboo for them since the days of Marvin Miller.

I can, however, see a cap on deferred money (a max of say $3M/yr deferred for the length of the contract).

Something that prevents a team like the Dodgers from using that payroll trick to sign S. Ohtani.

But again, I don't see any lockout/strike that cost them more than a handful of games.

Players vs players in the mid 1990's have made enough money to withstand a full year if needed and owners know it.

Too much $$$$ to lose on BOTH sides for them to do that.

JMO

I don't really see the value of the franchise being an issue. I haven't seen any examples of franchises in any sport declining in value. It may increase in value more slowly, but the value seems to be a one way street. Up. What I can see being an issue is the operating revenue. I do think the attendance level is critical for the Cardinals and their cash flow and operating budget. The attendance matters. One thing billionaires do better than the rest of us is, they play the long game. They will take the hit next year rather than slapping a band aid on the problem. The will go for the big fix to their problem. I agree with you that the players are vehemently opposed to a cap- that's why I think this will be bloody.

Oh that's the Golden Egg, capital appreciation and why the majority of teams are bought.

A team like the Cardinals, in a mid level market, would have their valuation based on revenues that were dependent on their upper MLB level attendance.

There's no way the team is worth the same $2.5B when it was drawing 3+M a year for decades if it's seeing a drop of 500,000+ in attendance along w/a worse local TV deal.

We also have to remember BDWjr is an old man, he can't play that "long game" much longer if he wants another championship.

He may not take it back to $180M in 2026 but he has to increase it well past this years level.

JMO

He doesn’t need another championship. He’s had the experience and pleasure of several.