STLtoday.com

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑02 Jul 2025 08:21 am

scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑02 Jul 2025 08:13 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑02 Jul 2025 08:04 am

scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑02 Jul 2025 08:02 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑02 Jul 2025 08:01 am

scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑01 Jul 2025 22:28 pm

Youboughtit wrote: ↑01 Jul 2025 22:03 pm The more I watch Burelson play outfield the more I am convinced they need to throw his glove away. He moves like a lumberjack. With Wetherholt at 2B next season Donovan will have to play OF. I would prefer to add a legit RH MOTO power bat and that only
Leaves RF. So my question becomes what to do with all these DH only players? The winning formula is to split DH between multiple players based on matchups but Gorman Walker Hererra and Burelson will all be on the bench. I think 3/4 need to be packaged for said OF and more pitching. They just don’t fit the defense first formula the cardinals need with this low payroll.

Who is this legit RH bat you are getting?

Now you see why I started a Kyle Tucker thread. We need a RF. There aren’t many. And the timing is right, we need, he is freed.

He's not a RH hitter!

I realize. But as you noted there are no righties.

Oh there are...Antico, Buxton, Colby Thomas...what are you willing to give up? Are the Cards willing to give Antico a run?

I was going along the free agent route.if we are including trades, that opens it up but then we gotta give. As you mentioned what are you willing to give. In a reset, trim then add. Not sure the plan can handle a big trade.

Team makeup might be too fragile.

You move a catcher, a LH OFer, Helsley, Matz..nobody is really untouchable in my eyes

For the record:

Burly in RF
0 - DRS
-1 - OAA

Walker in RF
-4 - DRS
-1 - OAA

scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑02 Jul 2025 08:23 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑02 Jul 2025 08:21 am

scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑02 Jul 2025 08:13 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑02 Jul 2025 08:04 am

scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑02 Jul 2025 08:02 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑02 Jul 2025 08:01 am

scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑01 Jul 2025 22:28 pm

Youboughtit wrote: ↑01 Jul 2025 22:03 pm The more I watch Burelson play outfield the more I am convinced they need to throw his glove away. He moves like a lumberjack. With Wetherholt at 2B next season Donovan will have to play OF. I would prefer to add a legit RH MOTO power bat and that only
Leaves RF. So my question becomes what to do with all these DH only players? The winning formula is to split DH between multiple players based on matchups but Gorman Walker Hererra and Burelson will all be on the bench. I think 3/4 need to be packaged for said OF and more pitching. They just don’t fit the defense first formula the cardinals need with this low payroll.

Who is this legit RH bat you are getting?

Now you see why I started a Kyle Tucker thread. We need a RF. There aren’t many. And the timing is right, we need, he is freed.

He's not a RH hitter!

I realize. But as you noted there are no righties.

Oh there are...Antico, Buxton, Colby Thomas...what are you willing to give up? Are the Cards willing to give Antico a run?

I was going along the free agent route.if we are including trades, that opens it up but then we gotta give. As you mentioned what are you willing to give. In a reset, trim then add. Not sure the plan can handle a big trade.

Team makeup might be too fragile.

You move a catcher, a LH OFer, Helsley, Matz..nobody is really untouchable in my eyes

These are correct. Add Mik if he gives up NTC, and Fedde.

Leaves me Gray Libby Pallante and McG moving forward. That’s a nice .500 or better staff.

Add Walker if he gets me to the next level.

scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑02 Jul 2025 07:57 am

Midrange Jay wrote: ↑02 Jul 2025 05:05 am

scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑01 Jul 2025 22:28 pm

Youboughtit wrote: ↑01 Jul 2025 22:03 pm The more I watch Burelson play outfield the more I am convinced they need to throw his glove away. He moves like a lumberjack. With Wetherholt at 2B next season Donovan will have to play OF. I would prefer to add a legit RH MOTO power bat and that only
Leaves RF. So my question becomes what to do with all these DH only players? The winning formula is to split DH between multiple players based on matchups but Gorman Walker Hererra and Burelson will all be on the bench. I think 3/4 need to be packaged for said OF and more pitching. They just don’t fit the defense first formula the cardinals need with this low payroll.

Who is this legit RH bat you are getting?

Tucker. We have almost $50 million coming off the books from Matz/Mikolas/Fedde. We could also probably sign Lane Thomas. It’s a more Cardinals move.

Signing Tucker is unreasonable and would handcuff this team for over a decade and (bleep), he's left handed hitter

He has 880 OPS against left handed pitching. Signing him for $35 a year would still keep us well below $160 million next year. If we go back to 2024 payroll, we could still sign a SP.

Midrange Jay wrote: ↑02 Jul 2025 08:51 am

scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑02 Jul 2025 07:57 am

Midrange Jay wrote: ↑02 Jul 2025 05:05 am

scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑01 Jul 2025 22:28 pm

Youboughtit wrote: ↑01 Jul 2025 22:03 pm The more I watch Burelson play outfield the more I am convinced they need to throw his glove away. He moves like a lumberjack. With Wetherholt at 2B next season Donovan will have to play OF. I would prefer to add a legit RH MOTO power bat and that only
Leaves RF. So my question becomes what to do with all these DH only players? The winning formula is to split DH between multiple players based on matchups but Gorman Walker Hererra and Burelson will all be on the bench. I think 3/4 need to be packaged for said OF and more pitching. They just don’t fit the defense first formula the cardinals need with this low payroll.

Who is this legit RH bat you are getting?

Tucker. We have almost $50 million coming off the books from Matz/Mikolas/Fedde. We could also probably sign Lane Thomas. It’s a more Cardinals move.

Signing Tucker is unreasonable and would handcuff this team for over a decade and (bleep), he's left handed hitter

He has 880 OPS against left handed pitching. Signing him for $35 a year would still keep us around $160 million next year. If we go back to 2024 payroll, we could still sign a SP.

So you think Tucker is signing a one year contract for $35? You don't think many a team may upbid his services?
and if you think it will be a longer contract, how long, and how does that impact the upcoming raises and holes to be filled or players to be paid over the length of that contract?

scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑02 Jul 2025 08:57 am

Midrange Jay wrote: ↑02 Jul 2025 08:51 am

scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑02 Jul 2025 07:57 am

Midrange Jay wrote: ↑02 Jul 2025 05:05 am

scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑01 Jul 2025 22:28 pm

Youboughtit wrote: ↑01 Jul 2025 22:03 pm The more I watch Burelson play outfield the more I am convinced they need to throw his glove away. He moves like a lumberjack. With Wetherholt at 2B next season Donovan will have to play OF. I would prefer to add a legit RH MOTO power bat and that only
Leaves RF. So my question becomes what to do with all these DH only players? The winning formula is to split DH between multiple players based on matchups but Gorman Walker Hererra and Burelson will all be on the bench. I think 3/4 need to be packaged for said OF and more pitching. They just don’t fit the defense first formula the cardinals need with this low payroll.

Who is this legit RH bat you are getting?

Tucker. We have almost $50 million coming off the books from Matz/Mikolas/Fedde. We could also probably sign Lane Thomas. It’s a more Cardinals move.

Signing Tucker is unreasonable and would handcuff this team for over a decade and (bleep), he's left handed hitter

He has 880 OPS against left handed pitching. Signing him for $35 a year would still keep us around $160 million next year. If we go back to 2024 payroll, we could still sign a SP.

So you think Tucker is signing a one year contract for $35? You don't think many a team may upbid his services?
and if you think it will be a longer contract, how long, and how does that impact the upcoming raises and holes to be filled or players to be paid over the length of that contract?

Of course I don’t think it will be a one year contract. It will have to be 6-8 for a top hitter in his prime. We have $75 million on the books for next year. There is financial room for an expensive free agent.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/tea ... acts.shtml

Midrange Jay wrote: ↑02 Jul 2025 09:01 am

scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑02 Jul 2025 08:57 am

Midrange Jay wrote: ↑02 Jul 2025 08:51 am

scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑02 Jul 2025 07:57 am

Midrange Jay wrote: ↑02 Jul 2025 05:05 am

scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑01 Jul 2025 22:28 pm

Youboughtit wrote: ↑01 Jul 2025 22:03 pm The more I watch Burelson play outfield the more I am convinced they need to throw his glove away. He moves like a lumberjack. With Wetherholt at 2B next season Donovan will have to play OF. I would prefer to add a legit RH MOTO power bat and that only
Leaves RF. So my question becomes what to do with all these DH only players? The winning formula is to split DH between multiple players based on matchups but Gorman Walker Hererra and Burelson will all be on the bench. I think 3/4 need to be packaged for said OF and more pitching. They just don’t fit the defense first formula the cardinals need with this low payroll.

Who is this legit RH bat you are getting?

Tucker. We have almost $50 million coming off the books from Matz/Mikolas/Fedde. We could also probably sign Lane Thomas. It’s a more Cardinals move.

Signing Tucker is unreasonable and would handcuff this team for over a decade and (bleep), he's left handed hitter

He has 880 OPS against left handed pitching. Signing him for $35 a year would still keep us around $160 million next year. If we go back to 2024 payroll, we could still sign a SP.

So you think Tucker is signing a one year contract for $35? You don't think many a team may upbid his services?
and if you think it will be a longer contract, how long, and how does that impact the upcoming raises and holes to be filled or players to be paid over the length of that contract?

Of course I don’t think it will be a one year contract. It will have to be 6-8 for a top hitter in his prime. We have $75 million on the books for next year. There is financial room for an expensive free agent.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/tea ... acts.shtml

You may believe that, but it's not your money. Does that "payroll" account for raises, filling other holes that may open up and need to be filled?

scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑02 Jul 2025 09:08 am

Midrange Jay wrote: ↑02 Jul 2025 09:01 am

scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑02 Jul 2025 08:57 am

Midrange Jay wrote: ↑02 Jul 2025 08:51 am

scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑02 Jul 2025 07:57 am

Midrange Jay wrote: ↑02 Jul 2025 05:05 am

scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑01 Jul 2025 22:28 pm

Youboughtit wrote: ↑01 Jul 2025 22:03 pm The more I watch Burelson play outfield the more I am convinced they need to throw his glove away. He moves like a lumberjack. With Wetherholt at 2B next season Donovan will have to play OF. I would prefer to add a legit RH MOTO power bat and that only
Leaves RF. So my question becomes what to do with all these DH only players? The winning formula is to split DH between multiple players based on matchups but Gorman Walker Hererra and Burelson will all be on the bench. I think 3/4 need to be packaged for said OF and more pitching. They just don’t fit the defense first formula the cardinals need with this low payroll.

Who is this legit RH bat you are getting?

Tucker. We have almost $50 million coming off the books from Matz/Mikolas/Fedde. We could also probably sign Lane Thomas. It’s a more Cardinals move.

Signing Tucker is unreasonable and would handcuff this team for over a decade and (bleep), he's left handed hitter

He has 880 OPS against left handed pitching. Signing him for $35 a year would still keep us around $160 million next year. If we go back to 2024 payroll, we could still sign a SP.

So you think Tucker is signing a one year contract for $35? You don't think many a team may upbid his services?
and if you think it will be a longer contract, how long, and how does that impact the upcoming raises and holes to be filled or players to be paid over the length of that contract?

Of course I don’t think it will be a one year contract. It will have to be 6-8 for a top hitter in his prime. We have $75 million on the books for next year. There is financial room for an expensive free agent.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/tea ... acts.shtml

You may believe that, but it's not your money. Does that "payroll" account for raises, filling other holes that may open up and need to be filled?

Yes, the $160 million number does. Per the baseball reference link, there is $75 million of committed contracts, $35 million for projected arbitration raises and $20 million of “other” payroll projected.

Midrange Jay wrote: ↑02 Jul 2025 09:10 am

scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑02 Jul 2025 09:08 am

Midrange Jay wrote: ↑02 Jul 2025 09:01 am

scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑02 Jul 2025 08:57 am

Midrange Jay wrote: ↑02 Jul 2025 08:51 am

scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑02 Jul 2025 07:57 am

Midrange Jay wrote: ↑02 Jul 2025 05:05 am

scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑01 Jul 2025 22:28 pm

Youboughtit wrote: ↑01 Jul 2025 22:03 pm The more I watch Burelson play outfield the more I am convinced they need to throw his glove away. He moves like a lumberjack. With Wetherholt at 2B next season Donovan will have to play OF. I would prefer to add a legit RH MOTO power bat and that only
Leaves RF. So my question becomes what to do with all these DH only players? The winning formula is to split DH between multiple players based on matchups but Gorman Walker Hererra and Burelson will all be on the bench. I think 3/4 need to be packaged for said OF and more pitching. They just don’t fit the defense first formula the cardinals need with this low payroll.

Who is this legit RH bat you are getting?

Tucker. We have almost $50 million coming off the books from Matz/Mikolas/Fedde. We could also probably sign Lane Thomas. It’s a more Cardinals move.

Signing Tucker is unreasonable and would handcuff this team for over a decade and (bleep), he's left handed hitter

He has 880 OPS against left handed pitching. Signing him for $35 a year would still keep us around $160 million next year. If we go back to 2024 payroll, we could still sign a SP.

So you think Tucker is signing a one year contract for $35? You don't think many a team may upbid his services?
and if you think it will be a longer contract, how long, and how does that impact the upcoming raises and holes to be filled or players to be paid over the length of that contract?

Of course I don’t think it will be a one year contract. It will have to be 6-8 for a top hitter in his prime. We have $75 million on the books for next year. There is financial room for an expensive free agent.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/tea ... acts.shtml

You may believe that, but it's not your money. Does that "payroll" account for raises, filling other holes that may open up and need to be filled?

Yes, the $160 million number does. Per the baseball reference link, there is $75 million of committed contracts, $35 million for projected arbitration raises and $20 million of “other” payroll projected.

I see it shows $135 million for 2025, and $125 for next year...that seems like a $10 difference...you think they can add $35 million for Tucker ( your number, not mine, which I see as low). Who replaced some of the other pieces leaving?

scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑02 Jul 2025 09:16 am

Midrange Jay wrote: ↑02 Jul 2025 09:10 am

scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑02 Jul 2025 09:08 am

Midrange Jay wrote: ↑02 Jul 2025 09:01 am

scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑02 Jul 2025 08:57 am

Midrange Jay wrote: ↑02 Jul 2025 08:51 am

scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑02 Jul 2025 07:57 am

Midrange Jay wrote: ↑02 Jul 2025 05:05 am

scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑01 Jul 2025 22:28 pm

Youboughtit wrote: ↑01 Jul 2025 22:03 pm The more I watch Burelson play outfield the more I am convinced they need to throw his glove away. He moves like a lumberjack. With Wetherholt at 2B next season Donovan will have to play OF. I would prefer to add a legit RH MOTO power bat and that only
Leaves RF. So my question becomes what to do with all these DH only players? The winning formula is to split DH between multiple players based on matchups but Gorman Walker Hererra and Burelson will all be on the bench. I think 3/4 need to be packaged for said OF and more pitching. They just don’t fit the defense first formula the cardinals need with this low payroll.

Who is this legit RH bat you are getting?

Tucker. We have almost $50 million coming off the books from Matz/Mikolas/Fedde. We could also probably sign Lane Thomas. It’s a more Cardinals move.

Signing Tucker is unreasonable and would handcuff this team for over a decade and (bleep), he's left handed hitter

He has 880 OPS against left handed pitching. Signing him for $35 a year would still keep us around $160 million next year. If we go back to 2024 payroll, we could still sign a SP.

So you think Tucker is signing a one year contract for $35? You don't think many a team may upbid his services?
and if you think it will be a longer contract, how long, and how does that impact the upcoming raises and holes to be filled or players to be paid over the length of that contract?

Of course I don’t think it will be a one year contract. It will have to be 6-8 for a top hitter in his prime. We have $75 million on the books for next year. There is financial room for an expensive free agent.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/tea ... acts.shtml

You may believe that, but it's not your money. Does that "payroll" account for raises, filling other holes that may open up and need to be filled?

Yes, the $160 million number does. Per the baseball reference link, there is $75 million of committed contracts, $35 million for projected arbitration raises and $20 million of “other” payroll projected.

I see it shows $235 million for 2025, and $125 for next year...that seems like a $10 difference...you think they can add $35 million for Tucker ( your number, not mine, which I see as low). Who replaced some of the other pieces leaving?

The only pieces leaving are Mikolasz/Matz/Fedde/Helsley. We would at least need to sign one quality starting pitcher, which is why I brought up 2024 payroll. Liberatore/McGreevy/Pallante would have to be starters, which is a best case scenario.

Midrange Jay wrote: ↑02 Jul 2025 05:05 am

scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑01 Jul 2025 22:28 pm

Youboughtit wrote: ↑01 Jul 2025 22:03 pm The more I watch Burelson play outfield the more I am convinced they need to throw his glove away. He moves like a lumberjack. With Wetherholt at 2B next season Donovan will have to play OF. I would prefer to add a legit RH MOTO power bat and that only
Leaves RF. So my question becomes what to do with all these DH only players? The winning formula is to split DH between multiple players based on matchups but Gorman Walker Hererra and Burelson will all be on the bench. I think 3/4 need to be packaged for said OF and more pitching. They just don’t fit the defense first formula the cardinals need with this low payroll.

Who is this legit RH bat you are getting?

Tucker. We have almost $50 million coming off the books from Matz/Mikolas/Fedde. We could also probably sign Lane Thomas. It’s a more Cardinals move.

I think we'll have to hope the best for Josh Baez

scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑02 Jul 2025 07:57 am

Midrange Jay wrote: ↑02 Jul 2025 05:05 am

scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑01 Jul 2025 22:28 pm

Youboughtit wrote: ↑01 Jul 2025 22:03 pm The more I watch Burelson play outfield the more I am convinced they need to throw his glove away. He moves like a lumberjack. With Wetherholt at 2B next season Donovan will have to play OF. I would prefer to add a legit RH MOTO power bat and that only
Leaves RF. So my question becomes what to do with all these DH only players? The winning formula is to split DH between multiple players based on matchups but Gorman Walker Hererra and Burelson will all be on the bench. I think 3/4 need to be packaged for said OF and more pitching. They just don’t fit the defense first formula the cardinals need with this low payroll.

Who is this legit RH bat you are getting?

Tucker. We have almost $50 million coming off the books from Matz/Mikolas/Fedde. We could also probably sign Lane Thomas. It’s a more Cardinals move.

Signing Tucker is unreasonable and would handcuff this team for over a decade and (bleep), he's left handed hitter

So cutting $50m last year and $50m this year is a $100m reduction when the contenders including the Cubs are increasing their payrolls. I find it odd that with all the spending the Cardinals chose to force attendance down by not signing legit stars fans will
Go watch

rockondlouie wrote: ↑02 Jul 2025 08:38 am For the record:

Burly in RF
0 - DRS
-1 - OAA

Walker in RF
-4 - DRS
-1 - OAA

Half the range

Besides Winn and Scott, this team is lacking in athletes.

It shows up in base running and fielding.

Tired of the dough boys with limited skills.

Youboughtit wrote: ↑02 Jul 2025 09:51 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑02 Jul 2025 08:38 am For the record:

Burly in RF
0 - DRS
-1 - OAA

Walker in RF
-4 - DRS
-1 - OAA

Half the range

Trust me ybit I'm not enthralled w/the Bison in RF either.

But as long as he's hitting, then we can live w/his basically league average defense.

imadangman wrote: ↑02 Jul 2025 09:32 am

Midrange Jay wrote: ↑02 Jul 2025 05:05 am

scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑01 Jul 2025 22:28 pm

Youboughtit wrote: ↑01 Jul 2025 22:03 pm The more I watch Burelson play outfield the more I am convinced they need to throw his glove away. He moves like a lumberjack. With Wetherholt at 2B next season Donovan will have to play OF. I would prefer to add a legit RH MOTO power bat and that only
Leaves RF. So my question becomes what to do with all these DH only players? The winning formula is to split DH between multiple players based on matchups but Gorman Walker Hererra and Burelson will all be on the bench. I think 3/4 need to be packaged for said OF and more pitching. They just don’t fit the defense first formula the cardinals need with this low payroll.

Who is this legit RH bat you are getting?

Tucker. We have almost $50 million coming off the books from Matz/Mikolas/Fedde. We could also probably sign Lane Thomas. It’s a more Cardinals move.

I think we'll have to hope the best for Josh Baez

Yep, or someone else currently in the minors.... the new Cardinal Way.... But still, they need package some of the surplus at MI, C, etc... to at least get a high level prospect who plays OF and hits from the right side. They also need one or two SPs to graduate to the bigs and be at least your #4 and 5 starters. The team will be moving on from Nado and WC fairly soon. Hopefully JJ is the real deal, but he hasn't even hit a AAA yet. There are pieces to trade. Walker appears to be a bust, but he has the rest of the season to show something, and maybe he will. Bloom and co will have some choices, but signing an expensive free agent is highly unlikely to be one of them with current ownership. It is clear the team needs to be restructured though. Far too many DH types and not enough defensive players who can actually hit. Also a shortage of starting pitchers coming up too. Well, actually we are short now since MM and Fedde have been useless lately.