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Re: BP Trades: All, Some, or None?
Posted: 01 Jul 2025 12:26 pm
by Talkin' Baseball
CorneliusWolfe wrote: ↑01 Jul 2025 12:15 pm
For the Some/All crowd. Suggestions welcome on how to fix the would-be broken bullpen. Internal candidates, trade targets, etc.
A couple nods to extending Maton, which would be an excellent start. We’ll need to fix it fast because the pitching and lineup seem well on their way.
SP has some underperformance/dead weight but McGreevy looks like a possible first solution.
It would be a shame to have both strong SP and lineup next year with a bullpen blowing a bunch of games.
There will literally be 60-80 relief pitchers on the market this winter. As demonstrated by Maton and Kitteridge, you can find meaningful relievers without breaking the bank. Selection is key.
Additionally, I wouldn't be opposed to bringing back Maton or Matz in their current roles, even if they are traded. Granillo should stay up. Graceffo may be part of the answer (that is a hope more than a certainty). Our closer at Springfield has been good. We haven't seen enough health from Roby or Hence to say they won't be relievers. I want them to start, but at some point they need to pitch in St Louis. To me, those are the beginnng places to look.
Re: BP Trades: All, Some, or None?
Posted: 01 Jul 2025 13:28 pm
by Eyelids64
If looking for 2026 and beyond, trade Helsley, Matz, Contreras, Walker, Nootbaar, Leahy and Gorman for as much as possible
Re: BP Trades: All, Some, or None?
Posted: 01 Jul 2025 13:39 pm
by Ozziesfan41
Look for a trade for a mediocre bullpen arm. Mos last few seasons has been hope and prayer he wont do anything different now
Re: BP Trades: All, Some, or None?
Posted: 01 Jul 2025 13:45 pm
by Talkin' Baseball
Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑01 Jul 2025 13:39 pm
Look for a trade for a mediocre bullpen arm. Mos last few seasons has been hope and prayer he wont do anything different now
That will demonstrate to everyone how we haven't thrown in the towel. The players and fanbase will be stoked and we will strike fear into our opponents. Could this franchise ever, even in one thing, just choose a direction, make a commitment, and follow it whole-heartedly? I, for one, am tired of soggy cereal. We don't starve, and we don't get fed either.
Re: BP Trades: All, Some, or None?
Posted: 01 Jul 2025 15:18 pm
by CorneliusWolfe
3dender wrote: ↑01 Jul 2025 12:23 pm
CorneliusWolfe wrote: ↑01 Jul 2025 12:15 pm
For the Some/All crowd. Suggestions welcome on how to fix the would-be broken bullpen. Internal candidates, trade targets, etc.
A couple nods to extending Maton, which would be an excellent start. We’ll need to fix it fast because the pitching and lineup seem well on their way.
SP has some underperformance/dead weight but McGreevy looks like a possible first solution.
It would be a shame to have both strong SP and lineup next year with a bullpen blowing a bunch of games.
Ryan Fernandez has bounced back at AAA, and Granillo is solid.
Fernandez over last two months has a .580 batter's OPS with 34 Ks in 25.2 innings and 3.86 ERA. Over the last month it's .508 OPS, 2.57 ERA, and 14 Ks in 14 innings.
Good to hear the progress on Fernandez, hoping he'd bounce back. Not sure why Granillo wasn't kept up in the bigs anyway with all the reset talk and his performance in AAA it seemed like he'd be exactly the kind of player to be given "runway".
Re: BP Trades: All, Some, or None?
Posted: 01 Jul 2025 17:39 pm
by CorneliusWolfe
Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑01 Jul 2025 13:45 pm
Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑01 Jul 2025 13:39 pm
Look for a trade for a mediocre bullpen arm. Mos last few seasons has been hope and prayer he wont do anything different now
That will demonstrate to everyone how we haven't thrown in the towel. The players and fanbase will be stoked and we will strike fear into our opponents. Could this franchise ever, even in one thing, just choose a direction, make a commitment, and follow it whole-heartedly? I, for one, am tired of soggy cereal. We don't starve, and we don't get fed either.
Yeah, if they're going to add, they need to add real talent. Maybe not MVP/Cy Young level that costs the future, but something meaningful.
Re: BP Trades: All, Some, or None?
Posted: 01 Jul 2025 17:46 pm
by CorneliusWolfe
Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑01 Jul 2025 12:26 pm
CorneliusWolfe wrote: ↑01 Jul 2025 12:15 pm
For the Some/All crowd. Suggestions welcome on how to fix the would-be broken bullpen. Internal candidates, trade targets, etc.
A couple nods to extending Maton, which would be an excellent start. We’ll need to fix it fast because the pitching and lineup seem well on their way.
SP has some underperformance/dead weight but McGreevy looks like a possible first solution.
It would be a shame to have both strong SP and lineup next year with a bullpen blowing a bunch of games.
There will literally be 60-80 relief pitchers on the market this winter. As demonstrated by Maton and Kitteridge, you can find meaningful relievers without breaking the bank. Selection is key.
Additionally, I wouldn't be opposed to bringing back Maton or Matz in their current roles, even if they are traded. Granillo should stay up. Graceffo may be part of the answer (that is a hope more than a certainty). Our closer at Springfield has been good. We haven't seen enough health from Roby or Hence to say they won't be relievers. I want them to start, but at some point they need to pitch in St Louis. To me, those are the beginnng places to look.
What you cite does sound like a good starting point. Kind of sounds like your more of a "some" than "all" in regards to extending Matz/Maton, unless you meant trade them and pursue again after the season. I'd like to see them extended or re-signed so as to start with a solid foundation. As stated before, buyer beware with Matz. He already burned us with this contract. Maybe the bullpen is where he belongs as he seems to not be as injury prone.
Re: BP Trades: All, Some, or None?
Posted: 01 Jul 2025 17:55 pm
by CorneliusWolfe
Eyelids64 wrote: ↑01 Jul 2025 13:28 pm
If looking for 2026 and beyond, trade Helsley, Matz, Contreras, Walker, Nootbaar, Leahy and Gorman for as much as possible
Helsley and Matz seem to be the only valuable assets, unless you just want to give the others away to clear roster space. Contreras would have value but NTC. Walker, Noot, Gorman...all very low sells, why not send them down and see if they improve in value for us or someone else next year?
Leahy? 5 yrs of control and has proven to have at least SOME value, right? Not a throw away, but not a highly valuable asset either.
Part of my thinking in creating this topic was the realization that in a sell-situation, our only real options seem to be in complete dismantling of the bullpen. Of course we can trade prospects, but I don't think the trade for the future crowd really wants to do much of that, at least not top prospects. So we'd basically be looking at lottery tickets for other teams lottery tickets.
Re: BP Trades: All, Some, or None?
Posted: 01 Jul 2025 18:53 pm
by Talkin' Baseball
CorneliusWolfe wrote: ↑01 Jul 2025 17:55 pm
Eyelids64 wrote: ↑01 Jul 2025 13:28 pm
If looking for 2026 and beyond, trade Helsley, Matz, Contreras, Walker, Nootbaar, Leahy and Gorman for as much as possible
Helsley and Matz seem to be the only valuable assets, unless you just want to give the others away to clear roster space. Contreras would have value but NTC. Walker, Noot, Gorman...all very low sells, why not send them down and see if they improve in value for us or someone else next year?
Leahy? 5 yrs of control and has proven to have at least SOME value, right? Not a throw away, but not a highly valuable asset either.
Part of my thinking in creating this topic was the realization that in a sell-situation, our only real options seem to be in complete dismantling of the bullpen. Of course we can trade prospects, but I don't think the trade for the future crowd really wants to do much of that, at least not top prospects. So we'd basically be looking at lottery tickets for other teams lottery tickets.
Not opposed to the trading of prospects (Crooks and Davis come to mind), I'm opposed to addition of rentals and low value targets. We're talking about different projects. I think you are talking about beefing up for this year, I am not. My sole focus is on setting up for the not so distant future.
Re: BP Trades: All, Some, or None?
Posted: 01 Jul 2025 19:07 pm
by BrockFloodMaris
Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑01 Jul 2025 18:53 pm
CorneliusWolfe wrote: ↑01 Jul 2025 17:55 pm
Eyelids64 wrote: ↑01 Jul 2025 13:28 pm
If looking for 2026 and beyond, trade Helsley, Matz, Contreras, Walker, Nootbaar, Leahy and Gorman for as much as possible
Helsley and Matz seem to be the only valuable assets, unless you just want to give the others away to clear roster space. Contreras would have value but NTC. Walker, Noot, Gorman...all very low sells, why not send them down and see if they improve in value for us or someone else next year?
Leahy? 5 yrs of control and has proven to have at least SOME value, right? Not a throw away, but not a highly valuable asset either.
Part of my thinking in creating this topic was the realization that in a sell-situation, our only real options seem to be in complete dismantling of the bullpen. Of course we can trade prospects, but I don't think the trade for the future crowd really wants to do much of that, at least not top prospects. So we'd basically be looking at lottery tickets for other teams lottery tickets.
Not opposed to the trading of prospects (Crooks and Davis come to mind), I'm opposed to addition of rentals and low value targets. We're talking about different projects. I think you are talking about beefing up for this year, I am not. My sole focus is on setting up for the not so distant future.
I agree with TB on this one. The longer we make attempts to snag a wild card, the more we delay the true business at hand, which is to build a roster that competes for a pennant. As has been discussed here and in other threads, the Cards have a surplus of catchers, middle infielders and left handed outfielders. This surplus should provide the value needed to acquire either a starting pitcher prospect or a right handed outfield prospect. Try to target MiLB top 300 prospects, which would roughly equate to a team's top ten prospect list. We may have to use Nootbaar/Burleson/Church + Crooks + Saggese/Prieto to get what we want.
Re: BP Trades: All, Some, or None?
Posted: 01 Jul 2025 19:34 pm
by CorneliusWolfe
BrockFloodMaris wrote: ↑01 Jul 2025 19:07 pm
Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑01 Jul 2025 18:53 pm
CorneliusWolfe wrote: ↑01 Jul 2025 17:55 pm
Eyelids64 wrote: ↑01 Jul 2025 13:28 pm
If looking for 2026 and beyond, trade Helsley, Matz, Contreras, Walker, Nootbaar, Leahy and Gorman for as much as possible
Helsley and Matz seem to be the only valuable assets, unless you just want to give the others away to clear roster space. Contreras would have value but NTC. Walker, Noot, Gorman...all very low sells, why not send them down and see if they improve in value for us or someone else next year?
Leahy? 5 yrs of control and has proven to have at least SOME value, right? Not a throw away, but not a highly valuable asset either.
Part of my thinking in creating this topic was the realization that in a sell-situation, our only real options seem to be in complete dismantling of the bullpen. Of course we can trade prospects, but I don't think the trade for the future crowd really wants to do much of that, at least not top prospects. So we'd basically be looking at lottery tickets for other teams lottery tickets.
Not opposed to the trading of prospects (Crooks and Davis come to mind), I'm opposed to addition of rentals and low value targets. We're talking about different projects. I think you are talking about beefing up for this year, I am not. My sole focus is on setting up for the not so distant future.
I agree with TB on this one. The longer we make attempts to snag a wild card, the more we delay the true business at hand, which is to build a roster that competes for a pennant. As has been discussed here and in other threads, the Cards have a surplus of catchers, middle infielders and left handed outfielders. This surplus should provide the value needed to acquire either a starting pitcher prospect or a right handed outfield prospect. Try to target MiLB top 300 prospects, which would roughly equate to a team's top ten prospect list. We may have to use Nootbaar/Burleson/Church + Crooks + Saggese/Prieto to get what we want.
I’m all for trading prospects for prospects to target areas of need. I do think the payoff will take several years though, like with Libertore. It seems many posters think the payoff is coming sooner. Some even think next year. I’m not as optimistic.
In addition to prospects for prospects trades, I still think there’s room to do some moderate buying too for the big team this year. At least I hope they will if the right opportunities emerge. I don’t mind losing a couple mid-level prospects or even a higher end not named JJW or QM, along with a log-jammed player from the ML roster, like one of our DH-types.