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Monsieur De Treville wrote: ↑06 Jun 2025 21:41 pm

Melville wrote: ↑06 Jun 2025 20:14 pm

Monsieur De Treville wrote: ↑06 Jun 2025 18:08 pm Question for CT folks...Is it possible, or even likely, that our Adam Wainwright is going to be the last pitcher to win 200 games in a career?

Gerrit Cole sits at 153, but he's 34 and hasn't pitched this season. Next is Sale at 141...but he's 36 and has only won 3 games this season.

Not exactly a timely thread, then again, the weather is awful and it's not a thread about Burly.

So what do you think? And...IF Waino is the last to 200, would that put him in the HOF someday?

Wainwright had nowhere near a HOF worthy career.
That aside, you pose a highly interesting question.
Here's the problem.
In today's game, the very worst teams are going to be able to draft the very best prospects (and pitching will of course be the priority) - thereby wasting several good seasons of an elite young pitcher.
See: Skenes, Paul.
Will another pitcher win 200?
Yes, of course.
But, it will require a high quality team which wins 90+ games per year to do one of three things.
Get very lucky in the draft.
Or make an overwhelming trade offer to acquire an elite young starter in the first 1-2 years of his career - and then immediately extend him for 10 years.
Or, make an overwhelming trade offer to acquire an elite young starter, who is a consensus #1 MLB prospect on the verge on MLB - and then extend him 10 years nearly immediately when he reaches the show.
These scenarios would permit a young ace to have a shot at around 100 wins by age 30 - and then begin the march to 200.
Easy.
Obvious.
Correct.

Maybe not. But plenty of pitchers in the HOF who didn't have a HOF career. One example...

Waino has a higher fWAR than Jack Morris. A better era & era+. A higher winning percentage. A lower WHIP, lower BB per 9, and higher K per 9. Waino won two GG and a Silver Slugger. While neither won a Cy Young, Waino did finish 2nd twice and 3rd twice. And Waino's K of Beltran is an iconic moment.

Now no, I don't feel he had a HOF career either. But...if he does get in someday, I would not be overly shocked. If Harold Baines is in, Waino is also a possibility.

JDW wrote: ↑07 Jun 2025 06:57 am I think there will be others given time, but possibly becomes as rare as ................. 600 career HR's? 220 hits in a season? 100 SB seasons? IDK.

JohnTudor1985 wrote: ↑06 Jun 2025 22:28 pm Crazy to think Denny McLain won 31 games in 1968. He was 24 years old. Different times for sure.

PanamaCardFan wrote: ↑07 Jun 2025 07:23 am

JohnTudor1985 wrote: ↑06 Jun 2025 22:28 pm Crazy to think Denny McLain won 31 games in 1968. He was 24 years old. Different times for sure.

Awesome example. McLain debuted at age 19. Pitched 320+ innings from 41 starts at age 24 and 25, collecting two CYAs. Then his arm fell off (and other off-field issues) and he was out of baseball after age 28.

Othawhitemeat wrote: ↑07 Jun 2025 06:42 am Paul Skenes if he stays healthy and gets traded. In all honesty, believe someone will do it but will be a while.

imadangman wrote: ↑07 Jun 2025 01:41 am

Monsieur De Treville wrote: ↑06 Jun 2025 21:41 pm

Melville wrote: ↑06 Jun 2025 20:14 pm

Monsieur De Treville wrote: ↑06 Jun 2025 18:08 pm Question for CT folks...Is it possible, or even likely, that our Adam Wainwright is going to be the last pitcher to win 200 games in a career?

Gerrit Cole sits at 153, but he's 34 and hasn't pitched this season. Next is Sale at 141...but he's 36 and has only won 3 games this season.

Not exactly a timely thread, then again, the weather is awful and it's not a thread about Burly.

So what do you think? And...IF Waino is the last to 200, would that put him in the HOF someday?

Wainwright had nowhere near a HOF worthy career.
That aside, you pose a highly interesting question.
Here's the problem.
In today's game, the very worst teams are going to be able to draft the very best prospects (and pitching will of course be the priority) - thereby wasting several good seasons of an elite young pitcher.
See: Skenes, Paul.
Will another pitcher win 200?
Yes, of course.
But, it will require a high quality team which wins 90+ games per year to do one of three things.
Get very lucky in the draft.
Or make an overwhelming trade offer to acquire an elite young starter in the first 1-2 years of his career - and then immediately extend him for 10 years.
Or, make an overwhelming trade offer to acquire an elite young starter, who is a consensus #1 MLB prospect on the verge on MLB - and then extend him 10 years nearly immediately when he reaches the show.
These scenarios would permit a young ace to have a shot at around 100 wins by age 30 - and then begin the march to 200.
Easy.
Obvious.
Correct.

Maybe not. But plenty of pitchers in the HOF who didn't have a HOF career. One example...

Waino has a higher fWAR than Jack Morris. A better era & era+. A higher winning percentage. A lower WHIP, lower BB per 9, and higher K per 9. Waino won two GG and a Silver Slugger. While neither won a Cy Young, Waino did finish 2nd twice and 3rd twice. And Waino's K of Beltran is an iconic moment.

Now no, I don't feel he had a HOF career either. But...if he does get in someday, I would not be overly shocked. If Harold Baines is in, Waino is also a possibility.

I think it's inaccurate to say he has "nowhere near" a HOF career. If anything, having the designation of being the "last" to get to 200 wins might help his case if there is one. Maybe he represents a generation of pitchers. He's very popular in the game. People think of him alongside Scherzers and Verlanders of the world. Would have helped if he won one of those Cy Young awards.

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑07 Jun 2025 07:01 am

JDW wrote: ↑07 Jun 2025 06:57 am I think there will be others given time, but possibly becomes as rare as ................. 600 career HR's? 220 hits in a season? 100 SB seasons? IDK.

You saved me a thread. Great find!!

Why- why do we not have a 700 Homerun guy, a 72 Homerun guy, 150 rbi guy, 100 stolen base guy, just one record breaker. Why.

With so much advanced medical and analytical data surely we have built the perfect beast. Where is he.

3dender wrote: ↑07 Jun 2025 08:03 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑07 Jun 2025 07:01 am

JDW wrote: ↑07 Jun 2025 06:57 am I think there will be others given time, but possibly becomes as rare as ................. 600 career HR's? 220 hits in a season? 100 SB seasons? IDK.

You saved me a thread. Great find!!

Why- why do we not have a 700 Homerun guy, a 72 Homerun guy, 150 rbi guy, 100 stolen base guy, just one record breaker. Why.

With so much advanced medical and analytical data surely we have built the perfect beast. Where is he.

He's facing off against a neverending, interchangeable parade of other perfect beasts with the nastiest velo and movement in the history of the sport... also crafted by the same advanced medical and analytical data.

3dender wrote: ↑07 Jun 2025 08:03 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑07 Jun 2025 07:01 am

JDW wrote: ↑07 Jun 2025 06:57 am I think there will be others given time, but possibly becomes as rare as ................. 600 career HR's? 220 hits in a season? 100 SB seasons? IDK.

You saved me a thread. Great find!!

Why- why do we not have a 700 Homerun guy, a 72 Homerun guy, 150 rbi guy, 100 stolen base guy, just one record breaker. Why.

With so much advanced medical and analytical data surely we have built the perfect beast. Where is he.

He's facing off against a neverending, interchangeable parade of other perfect beasts with the nastiest velo and movement in the history of the sport... also crafted by the same advanced medical and analytical data.

OldRed wrote: ↑07 Jun 2025 08:26 am From 2009 - 2014 he won 19 two times and 20 twice. He finished in the top three in voting for the Cy Yount Award 4 of those years and many thought he should have won it once.

Looking back, I have to admit he was a darn good pitcher and maybe in the future 200 wins will be looked at differently.

82birds wrote: ↑06 Jun 2025 18:26 pm doubtful 200 puts Waino in the HOF
JMO

ecleme22 wrote: ↑07 Jun 2025 01:20 am

illiniriles wrote: ↑06 Jun 2025 20:01 pm I don't know about all y'all, but Waino is probably my favorite Cardinal of all time after Gibby. I don't believe he will ever make it into the Hall of Fame. But he's already in my personal HOF. But then again, I prefer pitchers that could hit.

It's crazy how Waino has been dragged through the mud around here.

It's recency bias. The 2023 season was horrible. And people equate that to Waino trying to get his 200th win.

That's so unfair.

Waino was an absolute beast for STL for nearly 20 years. Coming back from injuries, performing, great in the playoffs.

When he came back in 2016-2018, he seemed toast. Then he had a decent 2019. Then, he was really good most of 2020-2022.

What a warrior. 2.83 ERA in the postseason in 29 games, 16 starts.