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mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑30 May 2025 09:23 am I don't think it should be exactly "championship or bust" - but for an organization with as robust a history of winning WS and NL pennants as the Cardinals, it should be about always wanting to be a position where you are one of top 3-4 teams in the NL on an almost-every-year basis.

If you are doing that, maybe you only make it to the WS every 5 years and win one WS title a decade, but that seems like were an organization like the Cardinals should be positioning itself.

When have the Cardinals' history, just limping into the playoffs as a WC, or even winning the NL Central just to get bounced in the first round of the playoffs shouldn't be the bar.

Cusecards wrote: ↑30 May 2025 10:03 am Money is always going to be an issue and unfortunately the Cards can’t go head to head with the Dodgers, Mets, etc due to differences in revenue.
That being said I think they are TRYING to win but erred in JUDGMENT on some players/moves.
A little luck can also be involved especially when you factor in health/injuries.

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑30 May 2025 09:23 am I don't think it should be exactly "championship or bust" - but for an organization with as robust a history of winning WS and NL pennants as the Cardinals, it should be about always wanting to be a position where you are one of top 3-4 teams in the NL on an almost-every-year basis.

If you are doing that, maybe you only make it to the WS every 5 years and win one WS title a decade, but that seems like were an organization like the Cardinals should be positioning itself.

When have the Cardinals' history, just limping into the playoffs as a WC, or even winning the NL Central just to get bounced in the first round of the playoffs shouldn't be the bar.

thetank2 wrote: ↑30 May 2025 11:04 am

Cusecards wrote: ↑30 May 2025 10:03 am Money is always going to be an issue and unfortunately the Cards can’t go head to head with the Dodgers, Mets, etc due to differences in revenue.
That being said I think they are TRYING to win but erred in JUDGMENT on some players/moves.
A little luck can also be involved especially when you factor in health/injuries.

Erred? I don't see replacing any of their position players from outside until 2027. Perhaps catcher. SP next year perhaps.

If Scott, Herrera, Nootbaar and Walker had hit this well last year they probably would have won 90.

Cusecards wrote: ↑30 May 2025 12:32 pm

thetank2 wrote: ↑30 May 2025 11:04 am

Cusecards wrote: ↑30 May 2025 10:03 am Money is always going to be an issue and unfortunately the Cards can’t go head to head with the Dodgers, Mets, etc due to differences in revenue.
That being said I think they are TRYING to win but erred in JUDGMENT on some players/moves.
A little luck can also be involved especially when you factor in health/injuries.

Erred? I don't see replacing any of their position players from outside until 2027. Perhaps catcher. SP next year perhaps.

If Scott, Herrera, Nootbaar and Walker had hit this well last year they probably would have won 90.

Erred as in making moves that seemed ok but did not pan out.
All teams err at times.
Hindsight is 20/20.

renostl wrote: ↑30 May 2025 12:12 pm

Cusecards wrote: ↑30 May 2025 10:03 am Money is always going to be an issue and unfortunately the Cards can’t go head to head with the Dodgers, Mets, etc due to differences in revenue.
That being said I think they are TRYING to win but erred in JUDGMENT on some players/moves.
A little luck can also be involved especially when you factor in health/injuries.

You are absolutely correct.

The Cardinals, at least in my lifetime, will not exceed the current luxury cap of $241 million,
It makes sustainability in that top 4 practically impossible.

The ultimate goal should always be a Championship. We should just understand that it doesn't happen
much.

Of the 11 WS championships 8 came before 1968. That was a time that the Cardinals were in position as an iconic
franchise that they were taking advantages in gathering the best players the deepest system second only to NYY.

As recently as 2018 the CBT was $195 million, only Boston and Washington exceeded it spending $233 and $201 million.
The Cardinals were at a CBT of $175 million that season. or 90% of the CBT, 75% of the top spending team in MLB.
2019 had just 3 teams exceed it with the top at $234, Boston again, the Cards were at $197 million.
Teams were close enough together that stretching higher was feasible for the team.
Now it's drastically different. Nine teams went past the CBT. 2 went by it by $100 million, which is the bigger issue
IMO. The Cards doing that same stretch of 90% or 75% of the biggest spenders would need to be at $305 million and they'd
still be $100 million below those 2 teams. Close to the Phillies.

Now while money and spending aren't everything, is does have a significant effect on sustainability or any bidding war
on a desired player. A Top 10 team, the Cardinals can always be with great decisions, spending properly, and a little
luck. A sustained top 4 team, seem to be no longer in the Cards. IMO, it will be difficult for any team in the middle of the country
to do it. Even the big cities of Chicago and Houston will be pushed.

desertrat23 wrote: ↑30 May 2025 12:35 pm

Cusecards wrote: ↑30 May 2025 12:32 pm

thetank2 wrote: ↑30 May 2025 11:04 am

Cusecards wrote: ↑30 May 2025 10:03 am Money is always going to be an issue and unfortunately the Cards can’t go head to head with the Dodgers, Mets, etc due to differences in revenue.
That being said I think they are TRYING to win but erred in JUDGMENT on some players/moves.
A little luck can also be involved especially when you factor in health/injuries.

Erred? I don't see replacing any of their position players from outside until 2027. Perhaps catcher. SP next year perhaps.

If Scott, Herrera, Nootbaar and Walker had hit this well last year they probably would have won 90.

Erred as in making moves that seemed ok but did not pan out.
All teams err at times.
Hindsight is 20/20.

Yeah, but when other teams err they hold those who erred accountable, not give them season-long farewell tours.

desertrat23 wrote: ↑30 May 2025 12:35 pm

Cusecards wrote: ↑30 May 2025 12:32 pm

thetank2 wrote: ↑30 May 2025 11:04 am

Cusecards wrote: ↑30 May 2025 10:03 am Money is always going to be an issue and unfortunately the Cards can’t go head to head with the Dodgers, Mets, etc due to differences in revenue.
That being said I think they are TRYING to win but erred in JUDGMENT on some players/moves.
A little luck can also be involved especially when you factor in health/injuries.

Erred? I don't see replacing any of their position players from outside until 2027. Perhaps catcher. SP next year perhaps.

If Scott, Herrera, Nootbaar and Walker had hit this well last year they probably would have won 90.

Erred as in making moves that seemed ok but did not pan out.
All teams err at times.
Hindsight is 20/20.

Yeah, but when other teams err they hold those who erred accountable, not give them season-long farewell tours.

Cusecards wrote: ↑30 May 2025 12:41 pm

renostl wrote: ↑30 May 2025 12:12 pm

Cusecards wrote: ↑30 May 2025 10:03 am Money is always going to be an issue and unfortunately the Cards can’t go head to head with the Dodgers, Mets, etc due to differences in revenue.
That being said I think they are TRYING to win but erred in JUDGMENT on some players/moves.
A little luck can also be involved especially when you factor in health/injuries.

You are absolutely correct.

The Cardinals, at least in my lifetime, will not exceed the current luxury cap of $241 million,
It makes sustainability in that top 4 practically impossible.

The ultimate goal should always be a Championship. We should just understand that it doesn't happen
much.

Of the 11 WS championships 8 came before 1968. That was a time that the Cardinals were in position as an iconic
franchise that they were taking advantages in gathering the best players the deepest system second only to NYY.

As recently as 2018 the CBT was $195 million, only Boston and Washington exceeded it spending $233 and $201 million.
The Cardinals were at a CBT of $175 million that season. or 90% of the CBT, 75% of the top spending team in MLB.
2019 had just 3 teams exceed it with the top at $234, Boston again, the Cards were at $197 million.
Teams were close enough together that stretching higher was feasible for the team.
Now it's drastically different. Nine teams went past the CBT. 2 went by it by $100 million, which is the bigger issue
IMO. The Cards doing that same stretch of 90% or 75% of the biggest spenders would need to be at $305 million and they'd
still be $100 million below those 2 teams. Close to the Phillies.

Now while money and spending aren't everything, is does have a significant effect on sustainability or any bidding war
on a desired player. A Top 10 team, the Cardinals can always be with great decisions, spending properly, and a little
luck. A sustained top 4 team, seem to be no longer in the Cards. IMO, it will be difficult for any team in the middle of the country
to do it. Even the big cities of Chicago and Houston will be pushed.

Good points and I readily admit to NOT being as knowledgeable as some on finances.
In my lifetime the Cards have been to 10 World Series winning 5!
That seems well above average for the league.
You mentioned 1968.
10 teams then as opposed to 15 now.
And 2 of those 10 were after the 1950’s.
I’m not denying that it has been rougher since the last WS in 2013.
So I get the frustration.
To me each fan is entitled to their own sense of “expectations”.
No right or wrong there!

renostl wrote: ↑30 May 2025 12:58 pm

desertrat23 wrote: ↑30 May 2025 12:35 pm

Cusecards wrote: ↑30 May 2025 12:32 pm

thetank2 wrote: ↑30 May 2025 11:04 am

Cusecards wrote: ↑30 May 2025 10:03 am Money is always going to be an issue and unfortunately the Cards can’t go head to head with the Dodgers, Mets, etc due to differences in revenue.
That being said I think they are TRYING to win but erred in JUDGMENT on some players/moves.
A little luck can also be involved especially when you factor in health/injuries.

Erred? I don't see replacing any of their position players from outside until 2027. Perhaps catcher. SP next year perhaps.

If Scott, Herrera, Nootbaar and Walker had hit this well last year they probably would have won 90.

Erred as in making moves that seemed ok but did not pan out.
All teams err at times.
Hindsight is 20/20.

Yeah, but when other teams err they hold those who erred accountable, not give them season-long farewell tours.

Fair especially this season.
I wonder which year people here would have let MO go.
Which directly ties into the threads topic.
My earliest would probably be 2017.
But it wasn't me giving him his job goals.

desertrat23 wrote: ↑30 May 2025 13:12 pm

renostl wrote: ↑30 May 2025 12:58 pm

desertrat23 wrote: ↑30 May 2025 12:35 pm

Cusecards wrote: ↑30 May 2025 12:32 pm

thetank2 wrote: ↑30 May 2025 11:04 am

Cusecards wrote: ↑30 May 2025 10:03 am Money is always going to be an issue and unfortunately the Cards can’t go head to head with the Dodgers, Mets, etc due to differences in revenue.
That being said I think they are TRYING to win but erred in JUDGMENT on some players/moves.
A little luck can also be involved especially when you factor in health/injuries.

Erred? I don't see replacing any of their position players from outside until 2027. Perhaps catcher. SP next year perhaps.

If Scott, Herrera, Nootbaar and Walker had hit this well last year they probably would have won 90.

Erred as in making moves that seemed ok but did not pan out.
All teams err at times.
Hindsight is 20/20.

Yeah, but when other teams err they hold those who erred accountable, not give them season-long farewell tours.

Fair especially this season.
I wonder which year people here would have let MO go.
Which directly ties into the threads topic.
My earliest would probably be 2017.
But it wasn't me giving him his job goals.

I’d have been happy with 2017, but after 90 losses and last place, can him. OR, after last year, give him a polite reassignment and let Bloom go. If nothing else you show the fans you care.

desertrat23 wrote: ↑30 May 2025 09:49 am

STL Cardinal Fan 24 wrote: ↑30 May 2025 09:30 am

desertrat23 wrote: ↑30 May 2025 09:26 am
It’s about the ride in Little League. In the big leagues, they get paid to win.

We arent in the big leagues, though. I'm talking about the fans and their perspective on fandom.

Also, I'd say its their job to entertain. I'm suggesting being entertained is about the ride. I'm glad the Cardinals arent tanking to look for championships down the road.

No argument that they shouldn't tank -- but they shouldn't need to. They have plenty of resources to build a sustainable model that allows them to be serious pennant contenders annually. No, they're not going to win every year -- and despite what the sycophants around here say, no one really expects that. But there's no excuse for not TRYING to win every year. If the fanbase shows up to the tune of 3.2-3.4 million every year with an "aw shucks, I just like a day at the ol' ballyard" attitude and have no expectations for a quality product, what's the incentive for ownership to invest? If I draw the same amount of fans with a mediocre product, why pay for a winning one?

As has been said elsewhere on this thread, being a top 3-4 team in the NL should be the baseline. No more of this "squeak into the wild card or win a weak division" nonsense. Can you compete with the Dodgers or Mets financially? No. Can you compete with the Atlantas/Arizonas/San Diegos of the world? (drat) right.