"Championship or bust" Mentality

[45s]

I don't think it should be exactly "championship or bust" - but for an organization with as robust a history of winning WS and NL pennants as the Cardinals, it should be about always wanting to be a position where you are one of top 3-4 teams in the NL on an almost-every-year basis.

If you are doing that, maybe you only make it to the WS every 5 years and win one WS title a decade, but that seems like were an organization like the Cardinals should be positioning itself.

When have the Cardinals' history, just limping into the playoffs as a WC, or even winning the NL Central just to get bounced in the first round of the playoffs shouldn't be the bar.

The entire industry has changed dramatically in recent years….

The success of the past ….and the environment that allowed that success….no longer exists.

To expect to consistently be in the top 3-4 teams every year…because they used to be, is unrealistic.

[renostl]

Money is always going to be an issue and unfortunately the Cards can’t go head to head with the Dodgers, Mets, etc due to differences in revenue.
That being said I think they are TRYING to win but erred in JUDGMENT on some players/moves.
A little luck can also be involved especially when you factor in health/injuries.

You are absolutely correct.

The Cardinals, at least in my lifetime, will not exceed the current luxury cap of $241 million,
It makes sustainability in that top 4 practically impossible.

The ultimate goal should always be a Championship. We should just understand that it doesn't happen
much.

Of the 11 WS championships 8 came before 1968. That was a time that the Cardinals were in position as an iconic
franchise that they were taking advantages in gathering the best players the deepest system second only to NYY.

As recently as 2018 the CBT was $195 million, only Boston and Washington exceeded it spending $233 and $201 million.
The Cardinals were at a CBT of $175 million that season. or 90% of the CBT, 75% of the top spending team in MLB.
2019 had just 3 teams exceed it with the top at $234, Boston again, the Cards were at $197 million.
Teams were close enough together that stretching higher was feasible for the team.
Now it's drastically different. Nine teams went past the CBT. 2 went by it by $100 million, which is the bigger issue
IMO. The Cards doing that same stretch of 90% or 75% of the biggest spenders would need to be at $305 million and they'd
still be $100 million below those 2 teams. Close to the Phillies.

Now while money and spending aren't everything, is does have a significant effect on sustainability or any bidding war
on a desired player. A Top 10 team, the Cardinals can always be with great decisions, spending properly, and a little
luck. A sustained top 4 team, seem to be no longer in the Cards. IMO, it will be difficult for any team in the middle of the country
to do it. Even the big cities of Chicago and Houston will be pushed.

[HorseTrader]

I don't think it should be exactly "championship or bust" - but for an organization with as robust a history of winning WS and NL pennants as the Cardinals, it should be about always wanting to be a position where you are one of top 3-4 teams in the NL on an almost-every-year basis.

If you are doing that, maybe you only make it to the WS every 5 years and win one WS title a decade, but that seems like were an organization like the Cardinals should be positioning itself.

When have the Cardinals' history, just limping into the playoffs as a WC, or even winning the NL Central just to get bounced in the first round of the playoffs shouldn't be the bar.

Matt I think that's a good way of putting it. I'd think most years a 90-92 win team would be in the top 3 or 4 of the NL.

[Cusecards]

Money is always going to be an issue and unfortunately the Cards can’t go head to head with the Dodgers, Mets, etc due to differences in revenue.
That being said I think they are TRYING to win but erred in JUDGMENT on some players/moves.
A little luck can also be involved especially when you factor in health/injuries.

Erred? I don't see replacing any of their position players from outside until 2027. Perhaps catcher. SP next year perhaps.

If Scott, Herrera, Nootbaar and Walker had hit this well last year they probably would have won 90.

Erred as in making moves that seemed ok but did not pan out.
All teams err at times.
Hindsight is 20/20.

[desertrat23]

Money is always going to be an issue and unfortunately the Cards can’t go head to head with the Dodgers, Mets, etc due to differences in revenue.
That being said I think they are TRYING to win but erred in JUDGMENT on some players/moves.
A little luck can also be involved especially when you factor in health/injuries.

Erred? I don't see replacing any of their position players from outside until 2027. Perhaps catcher. SP next year perhaps.

If Scott, Herrera, Nootbaar and Walker had hit this well last year they probably would have won 90.

Erred as in making moves that seemed ok but did not pan out.
All teams err at times.
Hindsight is 20/20.

Yeah, but when other teams err they hold those who erred accountable, not give them season-long farewell tours.

[Cusecards]

Money is always going to be an issue and unfortunately the Cards can’t go head to head with the Dodgers, Mets, etc due to differences in revenue.
That being said I think they are TRYING to win but erred in JUDGMENT on some players/moves.
A little luck can also be involved especially when you factor in health/injuries.

You are absolutely correct.

The Cardinals, at least in my lifetime, will not exceed the current luxury cap of $241 million,
It makes sustainability in that top 4 practically impossible.

The ultimate goal should always be a Championship. We should just understand that it doesn't happen
much.

Of the 11 WS championships 8 came before 1968. That was a time that the Cardinals were in position as an iconic
franchise that they were taking advantages in gathering the best players the deepest system second only to NYY.

As recently as 2018 the CBT was $195 million, only Boston and Washington exceeded it spending $233 and $201 million.
The Cardinals were at a CBT of $175 million that season. or 90% of the CBT, 75% of the top spending team in MLB.
2019 had just 3 teams exceed it with the top at $234, Boston again, the Cards were at $197 million.
Teams were close enough together that stretching higher was feasible for the team.
Now it's drastically different. Nine teams went past the CBT. 2 went by it by $100 million, which is the bigger issue
IMO. The Cards doing that same stretch of 90% or 75% of the biggest spenders would need to be at $305 million and they'd
still be $100 million below those 2 teams. Close to the Phillies.

Now while money and spending aren't everything, is does have a significant effect on sustainability or any bidding war
on a desired player. A Top 10 team, the Cardinals can always be with great decisions, spending properly, and a little
luck. A sustained top 4 team, seem to be no longer in the Cards. IMO, it will be difficult for any team in the middle of the country
to do it. Even the big cities of Chicago and Houston will be pushed.

Good points and I readily admit to NOT being as knowledgeable as some on finances.
In my lifetime the Cards have been to 10 World Series winning 5!
That seems well above average for the league.
You mentioned 1968.
10 teams then as opposed to 15 now.
And 2 of those 10 were after the 1950’s.
I’m not denying that it has been rougher since the last WS in 2013.
So I get the frustration.
To me each fan is entitled to their own sense of “expectations”.
No right or wrong there!

[Cusecards]

Money is always going to be an issue and unfortunately the Cards can’t go head to head with the Dodgers, Mets, etc due to differences in revenue.
That being said I think they are TRYING to win but erred in JUDGMENT on some players/moves.
A little luck can also be involved especially when you factor in health/injuries.

Erred? I don't see replacing any of their position players from outside until 2027. Perhaps catcher. SP next year perhaps.

If Scott, Herrera, Nootbaar and Walker had hit this well last year they probably would have won 90.

Erred as in making moves that seemed ok but did not pan out.
All teams err at times.
Hindsight is 20/20.

Yeah, but when other teams err they hold those who erred accountable, not give them season-long farewell tours.

Ok

[ilcubuffs]

Matt excellent perspective and comment - "When have the Cardinals' history, just limping into the playoffs as a WC, or even winning the NL Central just to get bounced in the first round of the playoffs shouldn't be the bar.'

But I would also add - Finishing behind the Dubbies in the Central. Completely unacceptable.

[renostl]

Money is always going to be an issue and unfortunately the Cards can’t go head to head with the Dodgers, Mets, etc due to differences in revenue.
That being said I think they are TRYING to win but erred in JUDGMENT on some players/moves.
A little luck can also be involved especially when you factor in health/injuries.

Erred? I don't see replacing any of their position players from outside until 2027. Perhaps catcher. SP next year perhaps.

If Scott, Herrera, Nootbaar and Walker had hit this well last year they probably would have won 90.

Erred as in making moves that seemed ok but did not pan out.
All teams err at times.
Hindsight is 20/20.

Yeah, but when other teams err they hold those who erred accountable, not give them season-long farewell tours.

Fair especially this season.
I wonder which year people here would have let MO go.
Which directly ties into the threads topic.
My earliest would probably be 2017.
But it wasn't me giving him his job goals.

[renostl]

Money is always going to be an issue and unfortunately the Cards can’t go head to head with the Dodgers, Mets, etc due to differences in revenue.
That being said I think they are TRYING to win but erred in JUDGMENT on some players/moves.
A little luck can also be involved especially when you factor in health/injuries.

You are absolutely correct.

The Cardinals, at least in my lifetime, will not exceed the current luxury cap of $241 million,
It makes sustainability in that top 4 practically impossible.

The ultimate goal should always be a Championship. We should just understand that it doesn't happen
much.

Of the 11 WS championships 8 came before 1968. That was a time that the Cardinals were in position as an iconic
franchise that they were taking advantages in gathering the best players the deepest system second only to NYY.

As recently as 2018 the CBT was $195 million, only Boston and Washington exceeded it spending $233 and $201 million.
The Cardinals were at a CBT of $175 million that season. or 90% of the CBT, 75% of the top spending team in MLB.
2019 had just 3 teams exceed it with the top at $234, Boston again, the Cards were at $197 million.
Teams were close enough together that stretching higher was feasible for the team.
Now it's drastically different. Nine teams went past the CBT. 2 went by it by $100 million, which is the bigger issue
IMO. The Cards doing that same stretch of 90% or 75% of the biggest spenders would need to be at $305 million and they'd
still be $100 million below those 2 teams. Close to the Phillies.

Now while money and spending aren't everything, is does have a significant effect on sustainability or any bidding war
on a desired player. A Top 10 team, the Cardinals can always be with great decisions, spending properly, and a little
luck. A sustained top 4 team, seem to be no longer in the Cards. IMO, it will be difficult for any team in the middle of the country
to do it. Even the big cities of Chicago and Houston will be pushed.

Good points and I readily admit to NOT being as knowledgeable as some on finances.
In my lifetime the Cards have been to 10 World Series winning 5!
That seems well above average for the league.
You mentioned 1968.
10 teams then as opposed to 15 now.
And 2 of those 10 were after the 1950’s.
I’m not denying that it has been rougher since the last WS in 2013.
So I get the frustration.
To me each fan is entitled to their own sense of “expectations”.
No right or wrong there!

Same here. My memory of the first two would be very small without video or books.
1982 was the first with my very own personal memories.

The ultimate goal is a championship.
Good baseball, effort without repeatedly giving games away, being in striking distance or leading
highly important to me. Championships are cherished.
Then again, I watch HS baseball, so it's about the game too.

[desertrat23]

Money is always going to be an issue and unfortunately the Cards can’t go head to head with the Dodgers, Mets, etc due to differences in revenue.
That being said I think they are TRYING to win but erred in JUDGMENT on some players/moves.
A little luck can also be involved especially when you factor in health/injuries.

Erred? I don't see replacing any of their position players from outside until 2027. Perhaps catcher. SP next year perhaps.

If Scott, Herrera, Nootbaar and Walker had hit this well last year they probably would have won 90.

Erred as in making moves that seemed ok but did not pan out.
All teams err at times.
Hindsight is 20/20.

Yeah, but when other teams err they hold those who erred accountable, not give them season-long farewell tours.

Fair especially this season.
I wonder which year people here would have let MO go.
Which directly ties into the threads topic.
My earliest would probably be 2017.
But it wasn't me giving him his job goals.

I’d have been happy with 2017, but after 90 losses and last place, can him. OR, after last year, give him a polite reassignment and let Bloom go. If nothing else you show the fans you care.

[renostl]

Money is always going to be an issue and unfortunately the Cards can’t go head to head with the Dodgers, Mets, etc due to differences in revenue.
That being said I think they are TRYING to win but erred in JUDGMENT on some players/moves.
A little luck can also be involved especially when you factor in health/injuries.

Erred? I don't see replacing any of their position players from outside until 2027. Perhaps catcher. SP next year perhaps.

If Scott, Herrera, Nootbaar and Walker had hit this well last year they probably would have won 90.

Erred as in making moves that seemed ok but did not pan out.
All teams err at times.
Hindsight is 20/20.

Yeah, but when other teams err they hold those who erred accountable, not give them season-long farewell tours.

Fair especially this season.
I wonder which year people here would have let MO go.
Which directly ties into the threads topic.
My earliest would probably be 2017.
But it wasn't me giving him his job goals.

I’d have been happy with 2017, but after 90 losses and last place, can him. OR, after last year, give him a polite reassignment and let Bloom go. If nothing else you show the fans you care.

Yeah 2017 was my earliest but appreciate other views.
2023 also makes perfect sense. Being on the job after the 2024
when another guy is on the payroll makes less sense.

[sikeston bulldog2]

For about half the league the WS is a goal or objective. For the rest a dream.

So to go for it seems rational until year after year goes by and no WS. And then, with the team is a disarray many more subpar years to come. That’s what a WS or bust would be to me. No structure.

[Ozziesfan41]

I know for Larussa and company it was World Series or bust. He was never satisfied with just a .500 season or a one and done play off and he instilled that mentality in his teams. Even when asked what constitutes a winning season Mo said rings. The fans used to expect making the playoffs and having a good showing. Now they’ve lowered expectations to just finishing above .500 is a good season and if you are one and done in the post season it was a great season. Now it’s u can expect if the cards make the post season it’s one and done although some think it’s just a crapshoot that the cardinals have been pitiful in the post season lately

[JDW]

Well, the wild card dynamic has lowered the bar for some teams, possibly including the Cards and increased the "just get in an anything can happen" mindset, which admittedly infects/mirrors my thoughts often.

I used to think IF the Cards could win a Championship on avg. once a decade, OK, great, I'm a lucky fan.
Now think it'll be more like 1 ring every 15 years or so, as the disparity between the big money teams greatly increasing have shifted the odds even more their way.
If the penalty was greatly increased for teams going over the CBA, then maybe more parity could be achieved.

Wait, 2011 plus 15 years .......................... is it possible?

[Ike Hammett]

It’s about the ride in Little League. In the big leagues, they get paid to win.

We arent in the big leagues, though. I'm talking about the fans and their perspective on fandom.

Also, I'd say its their job to entertain. I'm suggesting being entertained is about the ride. I'm glad the Cardinals arent tanking to look for championships down the road.

No argument that they shouldn't tank -- but they shouldn't need to. They have plenty of resources to build a sustainable model that allows them to be serious pennant contenders annually. No, they're not going to win every year -- and despite what the sycophants around here say, no one really expects that. But there's no excuse for not TRYING to win every year. If the fanbase shows up to the tune of 3.2-3.4 million every year with an "aw shucks, I just like a day at the ol' ballyard" attitude and have no expectations for a quality product, what's the incentive for ownership to invest? If I draw the same amount of fans with a mediocre product, why pay for a winning one?

As has been said elsewhere on this thread, being a top 3-4 team in the NL should be the baseline. No more of this "squeak into the wild card or win a weak division" nonsense. Can you compete with the Dodgers or Mets financially? No. Can you compete with the Atlantas/Arizonas/San Diegos of the world? (drat) right.

Dude, you suck!

Cards went out and got a literal MVP, a guy who came in 3rd in MVP and has been multiple top 10 MVP both who will probably be in the hall of fame, a catcher that started the all star game the year before he got signed, a Cy Young caliber pitcher, resigned their legend catcher who will be in the hall of fame, amongst others in the last few years

What is with all you loons who keep this nonsense narrative going they are not trying to win? What do they get for all their investing in the team, fans and media that call for boycotting, nothing but online hate, calling for firing some of the best baseball people around.

Terrible!