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Phil Maton hasn’t pitched in a week.

Not a big oli fan but I think it was a good move saves helsely for the 10th and maton for the 11th with the ghost runners. It didn’t work out sometimes they can make the good moves and doesn’t work out it happened that time

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑20 May 2025 23:24 pm Not a big oli fan but I think it was a good move saves helsely for the 10th and maton for the 11th with the ghost runners. It didn’t work out sometimes they can make the good moves and doesn’t work out it happened that time

Thank you!

The correct baseball decision is to bring your closer in with a tie score in the top of the ninth. This is an example of Marmol's strategic limitations as a manager. Just because the team has started playing better and won a few games does not mean Marmol has suddenly learned how to manage. He clearly hasn't.

russellhammond wrote: ↑21 May 2025 05:19 am The correct baseball decision is to bring your closer in with a tie score in the top of the ninth. This is an example of Marmol's strategic limitations as a manager. Just because the team has started playing better and won a few games does not mean Marmol has suddenly learned how to manage. He clearly hasn't.

Im as anti-marmol as they comw but there is nothing wrong with leahy in the 9th, it just didnt work out. Leah has been far better than helsley actually and after he finished 8th, theres no reason to waste him on 1 batter.

russellhammond wrote: ↑21 May 2025 05:19 am The correct baseball decision is to bring your closer in with a tie score in the top of the ninth. This is an example of Marmol's strategic limitations as a manager. Just because the team has started playing better and won a few games does not mean Marmol has suddenly learned how to manage. He clearly hasn't.

So what you’re saying is Marmol has made the correct baseball decision in your opinion many times before. So he clearly learned how to manage in those instances.

Wattage wrote: ↑20 May 2025 21:35 pm

Jatalk wrote: ↑20 May 2025 21:31 pm Yes you should use closer at home if tied in 9th. Better chance of going to bottom tied with chance to win. Then use Leahy in 10th if still tied. Point is you did not get a chance to use your strongest option from pen.

Leagy already entered to finish 8th. He couldnt leave then come back for 10th

Besides. Leahy has been better than helsley.

Yep I know I was saying what should have happened.

Sometimes in baseball the correct in game decision doesn't work out. That is what happened in this instance. Marmol could explain why he left Leahy in to pitch the ninth, His reasoning was solid. I have absolutely no problem with our manager having a gut feeling and managing by the seat of his pants. The end result, however, is that we wasted a chance to battle back and beat an ace. Mark this one down as a character building loss. We just really need to win this one, today.

ramfandan wrote: ↑20 May 2025 21:44 pm

Jatalk wrote: ↑20 May 2025 21:31 pm Yes you should use closer at home if tied in 9th. Better chance of going to bottom tied with chance to win. Then use Leahy in 10th if still tied. Point is you did not get a chance to use your strongest option from pen.

Do you really prefer Leahy in the 10th with a ghost runner on 2nd base ? Hmmmm ?

Yes because when I bring Helsley in I’m playing to winning in bottom of 9th. In a tied game I want to use my best option.

I heard his explanation after the game and I'm good with the decision. Basically it was because Kyle has been dominant against lefties, and they were lefties up in the 9th, and he wanted to save his strikeout closer for the 10th if it got that far.

I get it that it is conventional to bring the clothes are in at the bottom of the 9th at home, but I don't think you always have to go by the book 100% of the time, because I think that backs you into a corner. It's like always using your closer in the 9th. Sometimes it might make sense to bring him in when the heart of the order is up in the 8th. When you chain yourself to something that's always been done before just because it's always been done before, I think we can run in the trouble.

Perfectly stated, Ronny Dobbs. A good decision. Well explained. It just didn't work out. Now, we just need to win this next game. Do that and this becomes a team building experience.

Wattage wrote: ↑21 May 2025 05:28 am

russellhammond wrote: ↑21 May 2025 05:19 am The correct baseball decision is to bring your closer in with a tie score in the top of the ninth. This is an example of Marmol's strategic limitations as a manager. Just because the team has started playing better and won a few games does not mean Marmol has suddenly learned how to manage. He clearly hasn't.

Im as anti-marmol as they comw but there is nothing wrong with leahy in the 9th, it just didnt work out. Leah has been far better than helsley actually and after he finished 8th, theres no reason to waste him on 1 batter.

IMO there it was not the right decision to take out Matz with 2 out in the 8th. He threw 34 pitches in 2.2 innings and had retired all 8 batters he faced. He should have been left in to pitch to Torres, and then he would have started the 9th to pitch to the two LH batters (McKinstry and Greene).

I thought the same thing about using Helsley and why wasn't Burleson and Noot swapped from left to right field?

I know you aren't going to win every game, and it was a good game for the Cardinals the way they fought back. I just had these two thoughts beginning the inning.

I'll add this. The bullpen has been excellent this year, after the rocky start, and last year. I don't think that's a coincidence. Oli has had plenty to criticize, but I think he has done a great job of handling the bullpen. You don't just stumble into that. But it's not always going to work out over 162 games.

And I gave Oli (bleep) earlier in the year when he said that no manager in baseball puts his closer in in the 9th inning in the road. I thought that was lame because why always do what the book says all the time?

A++++++++++++++++++++! Now you're getting it. These in game decisions don't occur in a vacuum. There are lots of variables that affect the success of each managerial decision. The best you can do is take all the data available, analyze it and make the appropriate move, accordingly. I used to think that TLR, despite being an innovator, and genius and Hall of Famer was guilty of over managing. Just my opinion.

It made zero sense to take Lehay out after 1/3 of an inning. If they bring in helsely in the 9th and then Maton in the 10th and then have to go to Roycroft or King or Jo Jo in the 11th and they blow it then the outcry would be why would they pull lehay after just 1/3 of an inning hes been lights out they should have saved helsely for 10th with the ghost runner on and Maton for 11th and blah blah blah. I don't like Oli much but Lehay has been lights out it was smart to try to get him for 1 1/3 and save the other two for extra innings and push back when he would have to go to the less reliable relievers. Good move just didnt work. 9 times out of 10 it probably works. If you consistently make smart choices it wont always work but most of the time it does work