liberatore is a bright spot

[Futuregm2]

If Liberatore becomes the spirit of Quinn Mathews, then Mathews can take his time with his injury.

I’d rather both of them be healthy and good

[ICCFIM2]

he finally seems to be coming into his own...could be a big plus going forward

Finally? He’s 25 with fewer than 30 career starts

+1000 There are very few starting pitchers that are successful before the age of 25. It was just the sting of what Arozarena did immediately after the trade that left all of us wanting instant gratification from that trade. The Cards may yet win that trade in that they have 5 years of control over him still and he appears to be exactly the stud starting pitcher we hoped for him to be.

Liberatore, Pallante is a good start to putting together a rotation. This season is about identifying the pieces we have and what we need going forward. Liberatore appears to be a piece we have.

[Rosie's Rule]

And wouldn’t be ironic if the lopsided Randy Aroz trade actually turned out in the Cards favor?

[An Old Friend]

And wouldn’t be ironic if the lopsided Randy Aroz trade actually turned out in the Cards favor?

Well ecleme declared the trade lost 3 years ago so that can’t be!

[Strummer Jones]

I think we all need to also acknowledge Liberatore's role in this too.

Yeah, he got shafted with some dumb decisions by those above him more than once.

Yeah, he was probably rushed too fast after the Arozarena trade, thanks to Randy going ape in big play-off spots.

However, even when he was afforded some runway in the rotation, Lib didn't exactly help himself, either. He's really put in the work to smooth out his flaws that we all saw. Credit to him. I didn't think he could do it, but he's certainly making a fool of me. I think one could argue that he's been our best starter this year. Everyone's had a stinker, except Liberatore. Even his worst start he still gave us 6 innings.

[mattmitchl44]

I certainly hope, and expect, that Liberatore has made the jump to ML SP for good now.

As I've always said, it's fine if you consign failed SP prospects to the bullpen to see if their stuff will play up enough over one inning outings to be a ML contributor in the bullpen. But until you know you are ready to declare a SP prospect as having failed, without even thinking about going back to that experiment, you shouldn't be sticking them in the bullpen for months at a time.

Clearly, the Cardinals were never ready to declare Liberatore a completely failed SP prospect, and its good they gave him another chance.

[Ronnie Dobbs]

I'm not saying that he would have been better quicker if they would have not screwed around with him for the last three years, but I don't see how anyone could say that they handled him correctly. I wonder how close the organization came to just giving up on him.

[rockondlouie]

Thanks to them finally deciding to let him start instead of jerking him between the rotation and bullpen. Took a couple
Of years of stupidity but they finally wised up

Thank C. Bloom

Mo/Oli had him slated for the pen' (again!) until the final week of STing when Bloom stepped in.

(He also was the one who slotted Noot into the leadoff spot after the two morons had him hitting third to start out STing)

[mattmitchl44]

I'm not saying that he would have been better quicker if they would have not screwed around with him for the last three years, but I don't see how anyone could say that they handled him correctly. I wonder how close the organization came to just giving up on him.

They didn't handle him correctly, and arguably they may not have handled someone like Jordan Hicks correctly either. Hicks certainly hadn't failed as a SP prospect when the Cardinals rushed him to the majors in 2018 at age 21 and made him a RP for years.

How much better might Hicks be now if the Cardinals had let him develop as a SP through 2018, 2019, etc.?

[An Old Friend]

I'm not saying that he would have been better quicker if they would have not screwed around with him for the last three years, but I don't see how anyone could say that they handled him correctly. I wonder how close the organization came to just giving up on him.

They didn't handle him correctly, and arguably they may not have handled someone like Jordan Hicks correctly either. Hicks certainly hadn't failed as a SP prospect when the Cardinals rushed him to the majors in 2018 at age 21 and made him a RP for years.

How much better might Hicks be now if the Cardinals had let him develop as a SP through 2018, 2019, etc.?

Rosenthal and Helsley have been their most egregious strategic development failures. Very good starting pitcher prospects shoved in the pen to cover Mo’s roster gaps, never making a single major league start between them.

[rockondlouie]

I'm not saying that he would have been better quicker if they would have not screwed around with him for the last three years, but I don't see how anyone could say that they handled him correctly. I wonder how close the organization came to just giving up on him.

They didn't handle him correctly, and arguably they may not have handled someone like Jordan Hicks correctly either. Hicks certainly hadn't failed as a SP prospect when the Cardinals rushed him to the majors in 2018 at age 21 and made him a RP for years.

How much better might Hicks be now if the Cardinals had let him develop as a SP through 2018, 2019, etc.?

Hicks never had the secondary pitches needed to be a starter, Cardinals correctly identified that.

[An Old Friend]

I'm not saying that he would have been better quicker if they would have not screwed around with him for the last three years, but I don't see how anyone could say that they handled him correctly. I wonder how close the organization came to just giving up on him.

They didn't handle him correctly, and arguably they may not have handled someone like Jordan Hicks correctly either. Hicks certainly hadn't failed as a SP prospect when the Cardinals rushed him to the majors in 2018 at age 21 and made him a RP for years.

How much better might Hicks be now if the Cardinals had let him develop as a SP through 2018, 2019, etc.?

Hicks never had the secondary pitches needed to be a starter, Cardinals correctly identified that.

They moved him to the majors instead of allowing him the time to develop secondaries. Everyone knows that.

[Futuregm2]

I'm not saying that he would have been better quicker if they would have not screwed around with him for the last three years, but I don't see how anyone could say that they handled him correctly. I wonder how close the organization came to just giving up on him.

They didn't handle him correctly, and arguably they may not have handled someone like Jordan Hicks correctly either. Hicks certainly hadn't failed as a SP prospect when the Cardinals rushed him to the majors in 2018 at age 21 and made him a RP for years.

How much better might Hicks be now if the Cardinals had let him develop as a SP through 2018, 2019, etc.?

Hicks never had the secondary pitches needed to be a starter, Cardinals correctly identified that.

That’s what happens when you go from A ball to a MLB bullpen. Cardinals never gave Hicks a chance.

[mattmitchl44]

I'm not saying that he would have been better quicker if they would have not screwed around with him for the last three years, but I don't see how anyone could say that they handled him correctly. I wonder how close the organization came to just giving up on him.

They didn't handle him correctly, and arguably they may not have handled someone like Jordan Hicks correctly either. Hicks certainly hadn't failed as a SP prospect when the Cardinals rushed him to the majors in 2018 at age 21 and made him a RP for years.

How much better might Hicks be now if the Cardinals had let him develop as a SP through 2018, 2019, etc.?

Hicks never had the secondary pitches needed to be a starter, Cardinals correctly identified that.

He was only 21 and had pitched less than 170 minor league innings when they rushed him to the ML bullpen. Seems premature to decide that he was never going to develop secondary pitches.

[OldRed]

Thanks to them finally deciding to let him start instead of jerking him between the rotation and bullpen. Took a couple
Of years of stupidity but they finally wised up

I never viewed Libby as being stupid.

It's called maturity. I criticized him for laughing in the dugout and cutting up when they were getting beaten a year or so ago. He is growing up and has looked very good the last few starts.

[Ronnie Dobbs]

They didn't handle him correctly, and arguably they may not have handled someone like Jordan Hicks correctly either. Hicks certainly hadn't failed as a SP prospect when the Cardinals rushed him to the majors in 2018 at age 21 and made him a RP for years.

How much better might Hicks be now if the Cardinals had let him develop as a SP through 2018, 2019, etc.?

Absolutely. They gave him a few weeks notice that one year that he begged them to let him start. It predicably failed, but had they not fallen in love with 105mph and plucked him from A ball, who knows what he could be doing for us right now.

And it's already been mentioned by others, but Helsley and Rosenthal are basically the same situation. Insane that they kept doing that. Hopefully Bloom stops the madness.