The Marmot: same blunder 2 nights in a row

[spfldan]

gotta go with Mel on this one. Remember with the best strikeout bullpen guy was called the fireman? They were used when the game was on the line. Like tie game man on 2nd and no outs.

[Melville]

Kind of a catch 22.

You have to get to the 10th inning first.

If you don't use your best (if available) in the 9th and get beat then people will question that move.

I can see both sides of it but you have to play the inning you're in first.

That misses 2 key points.
One, you are playing the 9th on an even field.
But you play the 10th with an advantage to the home team.
Always place the bet when the odds are in your favor.
Two, as a manager, you know for a fact that you will need K's more in extra innings which begin with a runner in scoring position, than in the 9th inning which starts with no runner on base.
Worth noting that Roycroft and Hernandez did not K a single hitter in the 9th and 10th (following Romero not recording a K in the 10th last night).
Helsley has 6 in 3 innings this year.
This is not even a close call.

[Futuregm2]

Using Helsley in the 9th inning of a tie game at home is utter stupidity.
I said it last night.
I'm saying it again tonight.
Makes zero sense strategically to use your best strikeout pitcher in the 9th when you know that if there is a 10th inning the opposition with start with a runner in scoring position - which is when the strikeouts will be needed.
It is one thing to make such a silly mistake.
It is quite another to repeat it the very next game.
The Marmot just isn't very bright.

Pretty much every closer pitches in that situation across the league. Jansen also pitched the 9th in a tie game for the Angels tonight as well.

Road game for the Angels.
Home game for the Cardinals.
Huge difference.
The rule - as much as I detest it - gives the home team a solid extra inning advantage.
Foolish not to take advantage of that by saving Helsley for the 10th.
Again, the facts speak for themselves.
Not a coincidence that The Marmot's decision backfired two nights in a row.

His problem is that he can’t have Helsley and Maton pitch every inning of relief. At some point you have to use the other guys and Fernandez was one of our best relievers last year. This year, he hasn’t had it so far.

But every team in baseball would use Helsley in the 9th inning. I can’t believe they haven’t asked you to be manager yet.

Fernandez was a rule 5 pickup who had a decent season. First off, that's not much pedigree to rely on, 2nd, 90% of relievers are like spinning at roulette wheel season to season. Marmol will never understand that. This is guy that has literally said about 160 times now after a loss...

"We just couldn't get that big hit when we needed it."

And yet in those 160 times he NEVER tries anything different! Sure as F not gonna try and do something out of the box when it comes to relievers.

If we’re talking about a pitcher who can get a strikeout Fernandez had the 2nd best K/9 last year of anyone in the bullpen right now behind Helsley. So He’s at the very least a guy that you want to have out there in those innings where you have a runner on 2nd and need a K.

[Melville]

I understand needing the best in the 9th tonight. But in extra innings, you HAVE to get some strikeouts. And we don't have anyone other than Hels that can consistently do that right now.

Smart man.
You understand this game.

[NYCardsFan]

The Sultan of Sophistry strikes again.

[Handsomebachelor]

So sick of this stupid (donkey) free man on base in extras [shirt]. Pretty much guaranteeing the team to come up first will probably score and win and the home team will always have to play freaking catch-up

[Futuregm2]

Kind of a catch 22.

You have to get to the 10th inning first.

If you don't use your best (if available) in the 9th and get beat then people will question that move.

I can see both sides of it but you have to play the inning you're in first.

That misses 2 key points.
One, you are playing the 9th on an even field.
But you play the 10th with an advantage to the home team.
Always place the bet when the odds are in your favor.
Two, as a manager, you know for a fact that you will need K's more in extra innings which begin with a runner in scoring position, than in the 9th inning which starts with no runner on base.
Worth noting that Roycroft and Hernandez did not K a single hitter in the 9th and 10th (following Romero not recording a K in the 10th last night).
Helsley has 6 in 3 innings this year.
This is not even a close call.

Fernandez had the 2nd best K/9 last year of any of our relievers. He’s our best K guy outside of Helsley if you’re basing it off that history. Sure he didn’t get a K, that’s an off outing for him. He’s usually a pretty good K guy. And Roycroft had the 3rd best K/9 of any of the available relievers last year. And you’re using the best reliever in the 9th to get it to the 10th and 11th.

[Melville]

Using Helsley in the 9th inning of a tie game at home is utter stupidity.
I said it last night.
I'm saying it again tonight.
Makes zero sense strategically to use your best strikeout pitcher in the 9th when you know that if there is a 10th inning the opposition with start with a runner in scoring position - which is when the strikeouts will be needed.
It is one thing to make such a silly mistake.
It is quite another to repeat it the very next game.
The Marmot just isn't very bright.

Pretty much every closer pitches in that situation across the league. Jansen also pitched the 9th in a tie game for the Angels tonight as well.

Road game for the Angels.
Home game for the Cardinals.
Huge difference.
The rule - as much as I detest it - gives the home team a solid extra inning advantage.
Foolish not to take advantage of that by saving Helsley for the 10th.
Again, the facts speak for themselves.
Not a coincidence that The Marmot's decision backfired two nights in a row.

His problem is that he can’t have Helsley and Maton pitch every inning of relief. At some point you have to use the other guys and Fernandez was one of our best relievers last year. This year, he hasn’t had it so far.

But every team in baseball would use Helsley in the 9th inning. I can’t believe they haven’t asked you to be manager yet.

Painting by numbers does not make a good artist.
And paint-by-numbers managing is equally amateurish.
Given the STL bullpen's construction, it is nonsense to pitch Helsley in the 9th of a tie game at home, when the odds of his skill set resulting in a W in the 10th are such an obvious strategic advantage.

[Futuregm2]

Using Helsley in the 9th inning of a tie game at home is utter stupidity.
I said it last night.
I'm saying it again tonight.
Makes zero sense strategically to use your best strikeout pitcher in the 9th when you know that if there is a 10th inning the opposition with start with a runner in scoring position - which is when the strikeouts will be needed.
It is one thing to make such a silly mistake.
It is quite another to repeat it the very next game.
The Marmot just isn't very bright.

Pretty much every closer pitches in that situation across the league. Jansen also pitched the 9th in a tie game for the Angels tonight as well.

Road game for the Angels.
Home game for the Cardinals.
Huge difference.
The rule - as much as I detest it - gives the home team a solid extra inning advantage.
Foolish not to take advantage of that by saving Helsley for the 10th.
Again, the facts speak for themselves.
Not a coincidence that The Marmot's decision backfired two nights in a row.

His problem is that he can’t have Helsley and Maton pitch every inning of relief. At some point you have to use the other guys and Fernandez was one of our best relievers last year. This year, he hasn’t had it so far.

But every team in baseball would use Helsley in the 9th inning. I can’t believe they haven’t asked you to be manager yet.

Painting by numbers does not make a good artist.
And paint-by-numbers managing is equally amateurish.
Given the STL bullpen's construction, it is nonsense to pitch Helsley in the 9th of a tie game at home, when the odds of his skill set resulting in a W in the 10th are such an obvious strategic advantage.

And what if you pitch someone like Fernandez in the 9th inning and they give up the lead? And then you don’t start with a runner on 2nd base in the bottom of the 9th inning. They did the best they can. They used their 3 best K pitchers for the last 3 innings. Unfortunately 2 of them were not good.

[Cusecards]

Kind of a catch 22.

You have to get to the 10th inning first.

If you don't use your best (if available) in the 9th and get beat then people will question that move.

I can see both sides of it but you have to play the inning you're in first.

That misses 2 key points.
One, you are playing the 9th on an even field.
But you play the 10th with an advantage to the home team.
Always place the bet when the odds are in your favor.
Two, as a manager, you know for a fact that you will need K's more in extra innings which begin with a runner in scoring position, than in the 9th inning which starts with no runner on base.
Worth noting that Roycroft and Hernandez did not K a single hitter in the 9th and 10th (following Romero not recording a K in the 10th last night).
Helsley has 6 in 3 innings this year.
This is not even a close call.

Fernandez had the 2nd best K/9 last year of any of our relievers. He’s our best K guy outside of Helsley if you’re basing it off that history. Sure he didn’t get a K, that’s an off outing for him. He’s usually a pretty good K guy. And Roycroft had the 3rd best K/9 of any of the available relievers last year. And you’re using the best reliever in the 9th to get it to the 10th and 11th.

LMFAO
Nice try....but you’re wasting your time reasoning with this imbecile.
Who did the Angels send up in the ninth?
That’s right....the 2, 3, and 4 hitters.
So...,,you let a lesser pitcher TRY to get their best hitters out HOPING to get to the tenth.
If the lesser pitcher loses it he’d be here typing THAT was a mistake while satisfying himself.
You’re wasting your breath talking to this fraud!

[Stlcardsblues]

Using Helsley in the 9th inning of a tie game at home is utter stupidity.
I said it last night.
I'm saying it again tonight.
Makes zero sense strategically to use your best strikeout pitcher in the 9th when you know that if there is a 10th inning the opposition with start with a runner in scoring position - which is when the strikeouts will be needed.
It is one thing to make such a silly mistake.
It is quite another to repeat it the very next game.
The Marmot just isn't very bright.

It’s the correct place to pitch your closer at home. Most teams do it. Give yourself a chance to walk it off in the ninth.

[Melville]

Using Helsley in the 9th inning of a tie game at home is utter stupidity.
I said it last night.
I'm saying it again tonight.
Makes zero sense strategically to use your best strikeout pitcher in the 9th when you know that if there is a 10th inning the opposition with start with a runner in scoring position - which is when the strikeouts will be needed.
It is one thing to make such a silly mistake.
It is quite another to repeat it the very next game.
The Marmot just isn't very bright.

Pretty much every closer pitches in that situation across the league. Jansen also pitched the 9th in a tie game for the Angels tonight as well.

Road game for the Angels.
Home game for the Cardinals.
Huge difference.
The rule - as much as I detest it - gives the home team a solid extra inning advantage.
Foolish not to take advantage of that by saving Helsley for the 10th.
Again, the facts speak for themselves.
Not a coincidence that The Marmot's decision backfired two nights in a row.

His problem is that he can’t have Helsley and Maton pitch every inning of relief. At some point you have to use the other guys and Fernandez was one of our best relievers last year. This year, he hasn’t had it so far.

But every team in baseball would use Helsley in the 9th inning. I can’t believe they haven’t asked you to be manager yet.

Painting by numbers does not make a good artist.
And paint-by-numbers managing is equally amateurish.
Given the STL bullpen's construction, it is nonsense to pitch Helsley in the 9th of a tie game at home, when the odds of his skill set resulting in a W in the 10th are such an obvious strategic advantage.

And what if you pitch someone like Fernandez in the 9th inning and they give up the lead? And then you don’t start with a runner on 2nd base in the bottom of the 9th inning. They did the best they can. They used their 3 best K pitchers for the last 3 innings. Unfortunately 2 of them were not good.

In the 9th of a tie game at home, the odds are overwhelming you will enter the bottom of the 9th tied.
In the 10th of a tie game at home, the odds are overwhelming you will enter the bottom of the 10th behind.
Further, the 9th begins with no runner on base, the 10th begins with a runner in scoring position.
There is no way around the reality.
Both run prevention AND strikeouts are strategically more important in the 10th than in the 9th for the home team.
Again, the results prove just how obvious this is.

[Melville]

Using Helsley in the 9th inning of a tie game at home is utter stupidity.
I said it last night.
I'm saying it again tonight.
Makes zero sense strategically to use your best strikeout pitcher in the 9th when you know that if there is a 10th inning the opposition with start with a runner in scoring position - which is when the strikeouts will be needed.
It is one thing to make such a silly mistake.
It is quite another to repeat it the very next game.
The Marmot just isn't very bright.

It’s the correct place to pitch your closer at home. Most teams do it. Give yourself a chance to walk it off in the ninth.

And make it highly probable you will lose in extra innings by surrendering the advantage the home team has, if you don't score in the 9th.
Again, not scoring in a tie game at home in the bottom of the 9th does not harm a team at all.
But surrendering a clear advantage in the 10th most certainly does.
And did.
Two nights in a row.
The only defensible reason for STL to pitch Helsley in the 9th in that situation is if the manager's priority is to save the BP from covering innings rather than prioritizing winning the game.
And I have no doubt that is exactly how The Marmot thinks.

[Futuregm2]

Using Helsley in the 9th inning of a tie game at home is utter stupidity.
I said it last night.
I'm saying it again tonight.
Makes zero sense strategically to use your best strikeout pitcher in the 9th when you know that if there is a 10th inning the opposition with start with a runner in scoring position - which is when the strikeouts will be needed.
It is one thing to make such a silly mistake.
It is quite another to repeat it the very next game.
The Marmot just isn't very bright.

It’s the correct place to pitch your closer at home. Most teams do it. Give yourself a chance to walk it off in the ninth.

And make it highly probable you will lose in extra innings by surrendering the advantage the home team has, if you don't score in the 9th.
Again, not scoring in a tie game at home in the bottom of the 9th does not harm a team at all.
But surrendering a clear advantage in the 10th most certainly does.
And did.
Two nights in a row.
The only defensible reason for STL to pitch Helsley in the 9th in that situation is if the manager's priority is to save the BP from covering innings rather than prioritizing winning the game.
And I have no doubt that is exactly how The Marmot thinks.

How do you surrender the advantage the home team has? You’re basically doing the same thing the visiting team is doing. Your advantage is you CAN use your best reliever in the 9th inning and give yourself a better chance to walk off BEFORE the 10th inning. If you don’t use your reliever, then you’re doing just what the visiting team is doing and you give yourself a chance that you might not use your best reliever.

[Stlcardsblues]

Using Helsley in the 9th inning of a tie game at home is utter stupidity.
I said it last night.
I'm saying it again tonight.
Makes zero sense strategically to use your best strikeout pitcher in the 9th when you know that if there is a 10th inning the opposition with start with a runner in scoring position - which is when the strikeouts will be needed.
It is one thing to make such a silly mistake.
It is quite another to repeat it the very next game.
The Marmot just isn't very bright.

It’s the correct place to pitch your closer at home. Most teams do it. Give yourself a chance to walk it off in the ninth.

And make it highly probable you will lose in extra innings by surrendering the advantage the home team has, if you don't score in the 9th.
Again, not scoring in a tie game at home in the bottom of the 9th does not harm a team at all.
But surrendering a clear advantage in the 10th most certainly does.
And did.
Two nights in a row.
The only defensible reason for STL to pitch Helsley in the 9th in that situation is if the manager's priority is to save the BP from covering innings rather than prioritizing winning the game.
And I have no doubt that is exactly how The Marmot thinks.

And if you give up three in the ninth then you get stuck never getting your closer in the game. Most teams use their closer in the ninth.

[NYCardsFan]

Using Helsley in the 9th inning of a tie game at home is utter stupidity.
I said it last night.
I'm saying it again tonight.
Makes zero sense strategically to use your best strikeout pitcher in the 9th when you know that if there is a 10th inning the opposition with start with a runner in scoring position - which is when the strikeouts will be needed.
It is one thing to make such a silly mistake.
It is quite another to repeat it the very next game.
The Marmot just isn't very bright.

It’s the correct place to pitch your closer at home. Most teams do it. Give yourself a chance to walk it off in the ninth.

And make it highly probable you will lose in extra innings by surrendering the advantage the home team has, if you don't score in the 9th.
Again, not scoring in a tie game at home in the bottom of the 9th does not harm a team at all.
But surrendering a clear advantage in the 10th most certainly does.
And did.
Two nights in a row.
The only defensible reason for STL to pitch Helsley in the 9th in that situation is if the manager's priority is to save the BP from covering innings rather than prioritizing winning the game.
And I have no doubt that is exactly how The Marmot thinks.

How do you surrender the advantage the home team has? You’re basically doing the same thing the visiting team is doing. Your advantage is you CAN use your best reliever in the 9th inning and give yourself a better chance to walk off BEFORE the 10th inning. If you don’t use your reliever, then you’re doing just what the visiting team is doing and you give yourself a chance that you might not use your best reliever.

It’s pure sophistry—the OP’s specialty.