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I don't think Martinez does. The numbers line up pretty well, but we also can't deny that Martinez had thoroughly worn out his welcome here between injuries and immaturity. Like any hall of fame, numbers are important, but so is popularity.rockondlouie wrote: ↑01 Apr 2025 12:53 pmFair enoughStrummer Jones wrote: ↑01 Apr 2025 12:20 pmHere's my counter argument, though. Lynn wasn't the staff ace in St. Louis, but I don't think that's any fault of his own. His rookie year he pitched mostly out of the bullpen and had Carpenter. After that, he was probably second fiddle to Wainwright and those few seasons that Martinez was pitching as good as he was capable of.rockondlouie wrote: ↑01 Apr 2025 12:07 pmI was always a big fan, liked his bad a z z demeanor on the bump.Strummer Jones wrote: ↑01 Apr 2025 11:58 amMorris had more wins, but otherwise pretty similar numbers. ERA+ is VERY slightly favored to Morris. He had a 117. Morris had a worse ERA by a hair (3.61)--similar FiP (Morris was 3.77)rockondlouie wrote: ↑01 Apr 2025 11:48 am7 yrs a Redbird
79-51
3.43 ERA
3.71 FiP
114 ERA+
Solid Cardinals career, no Red Jacket though
Lynn also lines up favorably to a lot of the more ratio stats of Bob Forsch well, too.
But B. Forsch is well ahead of Lynn in Cardinals history, a 15 year Cardinal w/163 wins and a pair of no-no's.
Good comp though w/Matty Mo and I looked at that too.
But Morris and Forsch, in their Cardinals days, were looked upon as staff leaders and #1's (not ACES but the Cardinals #1) while Lance wasn't.
Forsch was a slam dunk Red Jacket, but honestly strummer I didn't think Morris deserved a Red Jacket either.
JMO
Not to take from Forschie, but he was always probably the best pitcher on some ho-hum staffs. Forsch was also never an all-star. By measure of ERA+ he was pretty much a league average pitcher. He had some excellent seasons, no doubt. But Lynn was consistently a well above average starter in his time in STL. He averaged an ERA+ of 116. Forsch averaged a 101.
I'm also not a fan of bringing in no-hitters into the conversation either. Again, not to take away from Bob...but Jose Jiménez also had more no-no's than Lance. Bud Smith, too.
But Forsch's body of Cardinals work is what makes him a slam dunk Red Jacket member.
I saw both their careers, was a fan of both.
You mentioned Carlos Martinez, does he also get a Red Jacket if Lynn get's one?
CMart as a Cardinal:
9 yrs (7 yrs Lynn)
139 GS (184 GS Lynn)
62 Wins (79 Wins Lynn)
31 Saves (1 save Lynn)
3.66 FiP (3.82 FiP)
1.30 WHiP (1.29 WHiP)
107 ERA+ (114 ERA+ Lynn)
2 Time All Star (1 time All Star)
I'd say no
And I still don't think Lynn gets a Red Jacket either.
Forsch and Carpenter. Stalwarts.Rojo Johnson wrote: ↑01 Apr 2025 13:20 pm It is absurd to even think, let alone say out loud, that Lynn ranks favorably with the Original Carp. I’ve been a Cardinals fan since (let’s say) 1960. Carp was one of the biggest bada**es to ever wear the Birds on the Bat. Other than Gibby, I can’t think of another Cardinal pitcher I’d rather watch pitch. You knew he was special when you watched him. Lynn was a good pitcher, but he sure as hell couldn’t carry Carp’s luggage.
Another silly comparison. Rorschach* was much better than Lynn.rockondlouie wrote: ↑01 Apr 2025 12:59 pm Let's comp Lynn to Forsch by their Cardinals age (25 - 30) seasons when they became FT starers:
Lynn Age 25 - 30
159 GS
943 IP
3.67 FiP
1.30 WHiP
114 ERA+
Forsch Age 25 - 30
198 GS
1308.1 IP
3.68 FiP
1.28 WHiP
104 ERA+
Ray Lankford should give him his.
Carp had higher peaks, no doubt about it, but also much deeper valleys. But as a whole career, Carp had a real dog of a time in Toronto. Ineffective, under .500 record, and an ERA in the high 4's. The advanced stats don't paint a prettier picture.Rojo Johnson wrote: ↑01 Apr 2025 13:20 pm It is absurd to even think, let alone say out loud, that Lynn ranks favorably with the Original Carp. I’ve been a Cardinals fan since (let’s say) 1960. Carp was one of the biggest bada**es to ever wear the Birds on the Bat. Other than Gibby, I can’t think of another Cardinal pitcher I’d rather watch pitch. You knew he was special when you watched him. Lynn was a good pitcher, but he sure as hell couldn’t carry Carp’s luggage.
Good point. I agree I dont think he should get in but if he does i wouldnt complain about itrockondlouie wrote: ↑01 Apr 2025 12:53 pmFair enoughStrummer Jones wrote: ↑01 Apr 2025 12:20 pmHere's my counter argument, though. Lynn wasn't the staff ace in St. Louis, but I don't think that's any fault of his own. His rookie year he pitched mostly out of the bullpen and had Carpenter. After that, he was probably second fiddle to Wainwright and those few seasons that Martinez was pitching as good as he was capable of.rockondlouie wrote: ↑01 Apr 2025 12:07 pmI was always a big fan, liked his bad a z z demeanor on the bump.Strummer Jones wrote: ↑01 Apr 2025 11:58 amMorris had more wins, but otherwise pretty similar numbers. ERA+ is VERY slightly favored to Morris. He had a 117. Morris had a worse ERA by a hair (3.61)--similar FiP (Morris was 3.77)rockondlouie wrote: ↑01 Apr 2025 11:48 am7 yrs a Redbird
79-51
3.43 ERA
3.71 FiP
114 ERA+
Solid Cardinals career, no Red Jacket though
Lynn also lines up favorably to a lot of the more ratio stats of Bob Forsch well, too.
But B. Forsch is well ahead of Lynn in Cardinals history, a 15 year Cardinal w/163 wins and a pair of no-no's.
Good comp though w/Matty Mo and I looked at that too.
But Morris and Forsch, in their Cardinals days, were looked upon as staff leaders and #1's (not ACES but the Cardinals #1) while Lance wasn't.
Forsch was a slam dunk Red Jacket, but honestly strummer I didn't think Morris deserved a Red Jacket either.
JMO
Not to take from Forschie, but he was always probably the best pitcher on some ho-hum staffs. Forsch was also never an all-star. By measure of ERA+ he was pretty much a league average pitcher. He had some excellent seasons, no doubt. But Lynn was consistently a well above average starter in his time in STL. He averaged an ERA+ of 116. Forsch averaged a 101.
I'm also not a fan of bringing in no-hitters into the conversation either. Again, not to take away from Bob...but Jose Jiménez also had more no-no's than Lance. Bud Smith, too.
But Forsch's body of Cardinals work is what makes him a slam dunk Red Jacket member.
I saw both their careers, was a fan of both.
You mentioned Carlos Martinez, does he also get a Red Jacket if Lynn get's one?
CMart as a Cardinal:
9 yrs (7 yrs Lynn)
139 GS (184 GS Lynn)
62 Wins (79 Wins Lynn)
31 Saves (1 save Lynn)
3.66 FiP (3.82 FiP)
1.30 WHiP (1.29 WHiP)
107 ERA+ (114 ERA+ Lynn)
2 Time All Star (1 time All Star)
I'd say no
And I still don't think Lynn gets a Red Jacket either.
A) Lynn couldn’t fit into 3 Ray Lankford red jackets.
I still remember when Holliday had an appendectomy on April 1st 2011 and people weren’t sure if it was real or not.Pink Freud wrote: ↑01 Apr 2025 12:25 pmGood call. It was on April Fools Day in 1987 that the Cardinals announced they had traded Andy Van Slyke to Pittsburgh and were giving Jim Lindeman his RF job. Nobody would fall for that, would they?
Imagine, if you will, Lance Lynn v. Roy Halladay. Playoffs at Philly. Halladay maybe baseball’s best pitcher that year. Must win game. You need a gun to your head to choose Carp. Oh, man. That’s not even funny. And you can’t be serious. That IS AS ABSURD as you make it to be.Strummer Jones wrote: ↑01 Apr 2025 14:06 pmCarp had higher peaks, no doubt about it, but also much deeper valleys. But as a whole career, Carp had a real dog of a time in Toronto. Ineffective, under .500 record, and an ERA in the high 4's. The advanced stats don't paint a prettier picture.Rojo Johnson wrote: ↑01 Apr 2025 13:20 pm It is absurd to even think, let alone say out loud, that Lynn ranks favorably with the Original Carp. I’ve been a Cardinals fan since (let’s say) 1960. Carp was one of the biggest bada**es to ever wear the Birds on the Bat. Other than Gibby, I can’t think of another Cardinal pitcher I’d rather watch pitch. You knew he was special when you watched him. Lynn was a good pitcher, but he sure as hell couldn’t carry Carp’s luggage.
On the flip side, he was never bad here. But he also basically missed three full seasons. '07, '08, and '12. Four whole seasons, if you count in '03 when we signed him fully knowing he was out for the year.
Again, gun to my head, pick one pitcher between Lynn and Carpenter to win ONE game, I'm taking Carpenter. But it's not as absurd as you make it out to be.
Carpenter: https://www.baseball-reference.com/play ... ch01.shtml
Lynn: https://www.baseball-reference.com/play ... la01.shtml
Hated when they didn’t try to bring him back when he left. Hated that they did later in his career. He should have been one of our top options instead of places like Minnesota.rockondlouie wrote: ↑01 Apr 2025 11:12 am I was always a fan of Lance, nice career and $110,440,917 career earnings means no Lynn offspring will have to work for many decades.