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desertrat23 wrote: ↑26 Jun 2025 23:14 pm

Cranny wrote: ↑26 Jun 2025 22:33 pm

desertrat23 wrote: ↑26 Jun 2025 21:48 pm

Cranny wrote: ↑26 Jun 2025 20:59 pm

Hazelwood72 wrote: ↑26 Jun 2025 20:31 pm

Cranny wrote: ↑26 Jun 2025 14:20 pm

desertrat23 wrote: ↑26 Jun 2025 14:16 pm

Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑26 Jun 2025 14:01 pm

3dender wrote: ↑26 Jun 2025 13:48 pm

Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑26 Jun 2025 13:33 pm After the new labor agreement is reached, I do expect payroll to go up. I suspect a significant portion of that to be for extensions moreso than additions.

I'll be happy to be proven wrong, but I simply assume this is just the latest excuse floated by ownership as to why they can't spend money. There have been like a half dozen different excuses over the last 3-4 years, but the constant has been decreasing payroll relative to the rest of the league...

So unless the Cards are in a uniquely poor financial position among all 30 clubs, then it's literally just a bunch of excuses. The fact that their relative payroll size continues to drop is what gives the game away.

They can say it, or spin it however they want- but it seems like the fans aren't buying what they are selling anymore.

And who can blame them (the fans)? They see ownership in comparable-sized markets with worse TV deals (think San Diego) actually trying. Cardinals fans are loyal but they're not idiots.

Or maybe the vast amount of past successes have produced some spoiled fans.

Well, Cranny, with your “spoiled fans” comment, you have outed yourself as a member of the Cards front office. If I didn’t know any better, I’d bet you are Bill DeWitt III. He sounded just like that during the off-season.

Okay then, let’s use another term. How about “expectant fans”. Is that better? Fans who expect another World Series win because - well -

1.) They expect it.
2.) They don’t care what it costs because they expect it and deserve it.

That the Cards should compete with the big boys because - They used to before payrolls went crazy.
And by golly no matter what the revenues are, they can afford it because they’re all lazy, fat cat billionaires.

Don't you get tired of attaching arguments to people they're not making?
NO ONE EXPECTS THE CARDINALS TO WIN THE WORLD SERIES.
WE EXPECT THEM TO TRY.
WE DESERVE THEIR TRYING.
SO DO YOU.
SO SHOULD YOU.

And I do. By developing strength from within.
Because trying to buy it rarely works.

It takes both developing and supplementing from the market. Not having one or the other is not a recipe for serious winning.

2ninr wrote: ↑27 Jun 2025 05:21 am That's pretty much what this thread is about. If the Cardinals signed Tucker and traded or signed for another top tier pitcher, are they a legitimate championship contender? I dunno. Borderline. Helsley won't be here. No Matz Mik Fedde. Matson? Catching is weak. Bullpen real shaky. Borderline at best.

craviduce wrote: ↑25 Jun 2025 10:26 am I like the Tucker possibility, I'm saying that up front.

That being said, I don't see any big, out-of-house signings before the huge labor obstacle is solved in 2027. I never expect the big signings in a normal setting, that's not our makeup.

We could do an inhouse signing or two this offseason, but that's about it.

CCard wrote: ↑27 Jun 2025 08:20 am

craviduce wrote: ↑25 Jun 2025 10:26 am I like the Tucker possibility, I'm saying that up front.

That being said, I don't see any big, out-of-house signings before the huge labor obstacle is solved in 2027. I never expect the big signings in a normal setting, that's not our makeup.

We could do an inhouse signing or two this offseason, but that's about it.

Bet your butt that some billionaire will sign him. Just not the penny pinching DeWitt. Another star going to a high payroll team, probably with deferred money.

JDW wrote: ↑27 Jun 2025 08:28 am So if you structured the Tucker contract front loaded, with an opt out after 3 years, good chance Tucker opts out after 3 at the age of 32.
By front loading, the avg. salary if he remained after 3 goes down each year making the contract not so bad at the end IF instead he stays, kinda like we're witnessing now with Arenado.
Then you've established that the next 3 years is your current window, and act accordingly with trying to setup a roster that can compete.
Our last window was the Golds/Arenado one that has closed down, although there's always room for a surprise 2011 year to emerge.
Short of that this year, you strive to set up the next 3 year window.
If there's a work stoppage, the players don't get paid, including players like Tucker, thus, it probably won't last forever.

2026
Donovan 3B
Wetherholt 2B
Tucker RF
Contreras 1B
Herrera LF
Burleson DH
Pages/Crooks/Bernal
Winn SS
VS2 CF

Bench: Gorman, Saggese, Crooks, Church

Rotation: Gray, Alcantara, Libs, McGreevy, Mathews, Pallante, Roby

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑27 Jun 2025 08:32 am

JDW wrote: ↑27 Jun 2025 08:28 am So if you structured the Tucker contract front loaded, with an opt out after 3 years, good chance Tucker opts out after 3 at the age of 32.
By front loading, the avg. salary if he remained after 3 goes down each year making the contract not so bad at the end IF instead he stays, kinda like we're witnessing now with Arenado.
Then you've established that the next 3 years is your current window, and act accordingly with trying to setup a roster that can compete.
Our last window was the Golds/Arenado one that has closed down, although there's always room for a surprise 2011 year to emerge.
Short of that this year, you strive to set up the next 3 year window.
If there's a work stoppage, the players don't get paid, including players like Tucker, thus, it probably won't last forever.

2026
Donovan 3B
Wetherholt 2B
Tucker RF
Contreras 1B
Herrera LF
Burleson DH
Pages/Crooks/Bernal
Winn SS
VS2 CF

Bench: Gorman, Saggese, Crooks, Church

Rotation: Gray, Alcantara, Libs, McGreevy, Mathews, Pallante, Roby

That’s a contending team. And probably the most impressive attempt to regain prominence.

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑27 Jun 2025 06:25 am Depends on how close you think the Cardinals actually are to competing and how much Tucker is going to get.

If Tucker gets, say, 10 yrs./$300 million, you should be expecting to be in "win now" mode over about the first five years of that contract moreso than waiting until the last five.

There are positive signs in the productivity of the Cardinals young players, but I don't know if this offseason or the offseason after the 2026 season is the time to start adding pieces again.

Cranny wrote: ↑27 Jun 2025 08:26 am

CCard wrote: ↑27 Jun 2025 08:20 am

craviduce wrote: ↑25 Jun 2025 10:26 am I like the Tucker possibility, I'm saying that up front.

That being said, I don't see any big, out-of-house signings before the huge labor obstacle is solved in 2027. I never expect the big signings in a normal setting, that's not our makeup.

We could do an inhouse signing or two this offseason, but that's about it.

Bet your butt that some billionaire will sign him. Just not the penny pinching DeWitt. Another star going to a high payroll team, probably with deferred money.

CCard - Guess that makes 2/3 of the owners of ML teams "penny pinchers". Right?

CCard wrote: ↑27 Jun 2025 09:00 am

Cranny wrote: ↑27 Jun 2025 08:26 am

CCard wrote: ↑27 Jun 2025 08:20 am

craviduce wrote: ↑25 Jun 2025 10:26 am I like the Tucker possibility, I'm saying that up front.

That being said, I don't see any big, out-of-house signings before the huge labor obstacle is solved in 2027. I never expect the big signings in a normal setting, that's not our makeup.

We could do an inhouse signing or two this offseason, but that's about it.

Bet your butt that some billionaire will sign him. Just not the penny pinching DeWitt. Another star going to a high payroll team, probably with deferred money.

CCard - Guess that makes 2/3 of the owners of ML teams "penny pinchers". Right?

Just watch the playoffs and you'll see who spends money. The proof is in the pudding as they say.

Cranny wrote: ↑27 Jun 2025 09:08 am

CCard wrote: ↑27 Jun 2025 09:00 am

Cranny wrote: ↑27 Jun 2025 08:26 am

CCard wrote: ↑27 Jun 2025 08:20 am

craviduce wrote: ↑25 Jun 2025 10:26 am I like the Tucker possibility, I'm saying that up front.

That being said, I don't see any big, out-of-house signings before the huge labor obstacle is solved in 2027. I never expect the big signings in a normal setting, that's not our makeup.

We could do an inhouse signing or two this offseason, but that's about it.

Bet your butt that some billionaire will sign him. Just not the penny pinching DeWitt. Another star going to a high payroll team, probably with deferred money.

CCard - Guess that makes 2/3 of the owners of ML teams "penny pinchers". Right?

Just watch the playoffs and you'll see who spends money. The proof is in the pudding as they say.

So, you would like to spend like the Dodgers, Mets, Yankees, Phillies, etc.?

desertrat23 wrote: ↑27 Jun 2025 09:11 am

Cranny wrote: ↑27 Jun 2025 09:08 am

CCard wrote: ↑27 Jun 2025 09:00 am

Cranny wrote: ↑27 Jun 2025 08:26 am

CCard wrote: ↑27 Jun 2025 08:20 am

craviduce wrote: ↑25 Jun 2025 10:26 am I like the Tucker possibility, I'm saying that up front.

That being said, I don't see any big, out-of-house signings before the huge labor obstacle is solved in 2027. I never expect the big signings in a normal setting, that's not our makeup.

We could do an inhouse signing or two this offseason, but that's about it.

Bet your butt that some billionaire will sign him. Just not the penny pinching DeWitt. Another star going to a high payroll team, probably with deferred money.

CCard - Guess that makes 2/3 of the owners of ML teams "penny pinchers". Right?

Just watch the playoffs and you'll see who spends money. The proof is in the pudding as they say.

So, you would like to spend like the Dodgers, Mets, Yankees, Phillies, etc.?

Doesn’t mean they will, but who WOULDN’T want their team to spend like those guys? Not my money.

45s wrote: ↑27 Jun 2025 09:00 am

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑27 Jun 2025 06:25 am Depends on how close you think the Cardinals actually are to competing and how much Tucker is going to get.

If Tucker gets, say, 10 yrs./$300 million, you should be expecting to be in "win now" mode over about the first five years of that contract moreso than waiting until the last five.

There are positive signs in the productivity of the Cardinals young players, but I don't know if this offseason or the offseason after the 2026 season is the time to start adding pieces again.

The last projection I saw was 12 years for 525

Tucker is not coming to Stl.