casey1024 wrote: ↑15 Feb 2026 08:34 am
I really like the kid. I'm usually wrong, but I like his tools. His speed is a mirror of Scott and so is the D. He looks like his bat to ball skills are superior to Scott"s. Would like to see those two battle it out and may the best man win!
Define what a "surprise" from Church might be.
.250 BA / 310 OBP and 250 20206 Pa's?
Something lees, something more?
No definition.......just better than expected
Which leaves the same question.
What are your expectations?
That would make him a better player at the MLB level than he was as a minor leaguer.
Simply an observation.
With all due respect......do you just want to argue? I'm high on life and love my Cards. I only get on here for fun. If what I said provoked you in some way.....please accept my apology........otherwise....just ignore this old man. Thanks in advance.
Again, merely an observation concerning Church.
I am kind and gracious to a fault - never disrespectful, never argumentative - and unfailingly seeking clarity from others so as to fully understand and correctly characterize every perspective.
Nothing wrong with having faith that Church will be as good or better as a MLB player as he was in the minor leagues - but having that as an actual expectation is a different matter entirely.
Let's see what happens.
Where is this observation coming from? .270 with .350 obp and 20-30 sb is literally right in line with his minor league career...?
Church has hit .281 with a .353 obp with 64 sb in 1550 minor league PA's. That's 25 sb pace for 600 PA's... Again, all these are right in line with above, so I'm confused by your observation
casey1024 wrote: ↑15 Feb 2026 08:34 am
I really like the kid. I'm usually wrong, but I like his tools. His speed is a mirror of Scott and so is the D. He looks like his bat to ball skills are superior to Scott"s. Would like to see those two battle it out and may the best man win!
We were 29tb in HRs and just traded our HR leader. We need more than glove only guys for our OF.
Like VSII he's got a good glove and speed but in limited action he seemed overmatched at the plate.
But I hope you're right!
More overmatched than Victor? Is that possible?!
They we're amazing similar in their rookie appearances:
NC
.179 .254 .250 .504
VSII/2024
.179 .219 .283 .502
I think they have different backgrounds: one who has the capacity to hit well and another who can.
Scott at AAA - .210/.294/.303/.597 in 362 PAs.
——-College - .254/.368/.419/.787
Church -AAA - .332/.396/.500/.896 in 213 PAs.
———College - .341/.405/.515/.920
Like Saggese, Church's AAA stats have to translate to MLB or they're meaningless.
This is why I believe the hole in our coaching development program is actually at the major league level. It’s Ollie and his coaches that are the problem. Also see Walker and Gorman who have gone backwards under his his coaching.
casey1024 wrote: ↑15 Feb 2026 08:34 am
I really like the kid. I'm usually wrong, but I like his tools. His speed is a mirror of Scott and so is the D. He looks like his bat to ball skills are superior to Scott"s. Would like to see those two battle it out and may the best man win!
We were 29tb in HRs and just traded our HR leader. We need more than glove only guys for our OF.
The Cardinals need Gorman's and Walker's bats to come alive this season. It would help the power shortage, immensely.
Like VSII he's got a good glove and speed but in limited action he seemed overmatched at the plate.
But I hope you're right!
More overmatched than Victor? Is that possible?!
They we're amazing similar in their rookie appearances:
NC
.179 .254 .250 .504
VSII/2024
.179 .219 .283 .502
I think they have different backgrounds: one who has the capacity to hit well and another who can.
Scott at AAA - .210/.294/.303/.597 in 362 PAs.
——-College - .254/.368/.419/.787
Church -AAA - .332/.396/.500/.896 in 213 PAs.
———College - .341/.405/.515/.920
Like Saggese, Church's AAA stats have to translate to MLB or they're meaningless.
This is why I believe the hole in our coaching development program is actually at the major league level. It’s Ollie and his coaches that are the problem. Also see Walker and Gorman who have gone backwards under his his coaching.
No argument here C4C.
I'm not a fan of Oli and most of his staff (sans D. DeScalso and J. Jay).
Like VSII he's got a good glove and speed but in limited action he seemed overmatched at the plate.
But I hope you're right!
More overmatched than Victor? Is that possible?!
They we're amazing similar in their rookie appearances:
NC
.179 .254 .250 .504
VSII/2024
.179 .219 .283 .502
I think they have different backgrounds: one who has the capacity to hit well and another who can.
Scott at AAA - .210/.294/.303/.597 in 362 PAs.
——-College - .254/.368/.419/.787
Church -AAA - .332/.396/.500/.896 in 213 PAs.
———College - .341/.405/.515/.920
Like Saggese, Church's AAA stats have to translate to MLB or they're meaningless.
This is why I believe the hole in our coaching development program is actually at the major league level. It’s Ollie and his coaches that are the problem. Also see Walker and Gorman who have gone backwards under his his coaching.
No argument here C4C.
I'm not a fan of Oli and most of his staff (sans D. DeScalso and J. Jay).
Anyone who reads this board knows I am no Oli fan, but that argument above is flawed. Maybe they aren't getting good coaching at MLB level, BUT it is also a lot harder to play at this level than AAA. You might see one guy in a rotation at AAA who makes it in the show. In the big leagues, everyone has made it there.
Like VSII he's got a good glove and speed but in limited action he seemed overmatched at the plate.
But I hope you're right!
More overmatched than Victor? Is that possible?!
They we're amazing similar in their rookie appearances:
NC
.179 .254 .250 .504
VSII/2024
.179 .219 .283 .502
I think they have different backgrounds: one who has the capacity to hit well and another who can.
Scott at AAA - .210/.294/.303/.597 in 362 PAs.
——-College - .254/.368/.419/.787
Church -AAA - .332/.396/.500/.896 in 213 PAs.
———College - .341/.405/.515/.920
Like Saggese, Church's AAA stats have to translate to MLB or they're meaningless.
This is why I believe the hole in our coaching development program is actually at the major league level. It’s Ollie and his coaches that are the problem. Also see Walker and Gorman who have gone backwards under his his coaching.
No argument here C4C.
I'm not a fan of Oli and most of his staff (sans D. DeScalso and J. Jay).
Anyone who reads this board knows I am no Oli fan, but that argument above is flawed. Maybe they aren't getting good coaching at MLB level, BUT it is also a lot harder to play at this level than AAA. You might see one guy in a rotation at AAA who makes it in the show. In the big leagues, everyone has made it there.
But we're also talking about some top rated prospects bcc (from Carlson - Gorman - Walker) who've floundered once Oli and his gang got ahold of them.
While I agree MLB is NOT the place for developing players, even the greats can still benefit from good major league coaching (re: Albert after he went to the Dodgers and credited them for getting him back on track).
We saw D. Duncan coach up some pretty average pitchers and turn their careers around.
Coaching in MLB matters, the bulk of Oli's staff have failed.............hopefully Oli and most of them are gone after 2026.
casey1024 wrote: ↑15 Feb 2026 08:34 am
I really like the kid. I'm usually wrong, but I like his tools. His speed is a mirror of Scott and so is the D. He looks like his bat to ball skills are superior to Scott"s. Would like to see those two battle it out and may the best man win!
We were 29tb in HRs and just traded our HR leader. We need more than glove only guys for our OF.
The Cardinals need Gorman's and Walker's bats to come alive this season.
Like VSII he's got a good glove and speed but in limited action he seemed overmatched at the plate.
But I hope you're right!
More overmatched than Victor? Is that possible?!
They we're amazing similar in their rookie appearances:
NC
.179 .254 .250 .504
VSII/2024
.179 .219 .283 .502
I think they have different backgrounds: one who has the capacity to hit well and another who can.
Scott at AAA - .210/.294/.303/.597 in 362 PAs.
——-College - .254/.368/.419/.787
Church -AAA - .332/.396/.500/.896 in 213 PAs.
———College - .341/.405/.515/.920
Like Saggese, Church's AAA stats have to translate to MLB or they're meaningless.
This is why I believe the hole in our coaching development program is actually at the major league level. It’s Ollie and his coaches that are the problem. Also see Walker and Gorman who have gone backwards under his his coaching.
No argument here C4C.
I'm not a fan of Oli and most of his staff (sans D. DeScalso and J. Jay).
Anyone who reads this board knows I am no Oli fan, but that argument above is flawed. Maybe they aren't getting good coaching at MLB level, BUT it is also a lot harder to play at this level than AAA. You might see one guy in a rotation at AAA who makes it in the show. In the big leagues, everyone has made it there.
But we're also talking about some top rated prospects bcc (from Carlson - Gorman - Walker) who've floundered once Oli and his gang got ahold of them.
While I agree MLB is NOT the place for developing players, even the greats can still benefit from good major league coaching (re: Albert after he went to the Dodgers and credited them for getting him back on track).
We saw D. Duncan coach up some pretty average pitchers and turn their careers around.
Coaching in MLB matters, the bulk of Oli's staff have failed.............hopefully Oli and most of them are gone after 2026.
Rock, you know and I agree on this topic, but just trying to bring a little sense to the argument. DC didn't do squat when he left here either. I agree that coaching matters, but the league history is littered with AAAA players too. Yes, I would love to see Oli and Blake replaced. Not sure why Bloom didn't do it yet, but he did not. I don't buy the ownership is cheap argument. They paid a ton to make Nado, SG, and WC contracts go away. Oli's contract is chump change. I know you are of the opinion that the change is made after this season, assuming a miracle doesn't occur and Oli leads the team to the playoffs. We shall see. Coaching has screwed up Walker, but not sure he can see the spin on the breaking ball well enough to lay off. Same with Gorman and high fastballs. Still, coaching can set a team objective, like take tough ABs and don't K. We have seen teams with that general approach go far in the post season. Anyway, new grass on the field... let's see what this season brings. JJ can hit, so hopefully that will be fun to watch.
Like VSII he's got a good glove and speed but in limited action he seemed overmatched at the plate.
But I hope you're right!
More overmatched than Victor? Is that possible?!
They we're amazing similar in their rookie appearances:
NC
.179 .254 .250 .504
VSII/2024
.179 .219 .283 .502
I think they have different backgrounds: one who has the capacity to hit well and another who can.
Scott at AAA - .210/.294/.303/.597 in 362 PAs.
——-College - .254/.368/.419/.787
Church -AAA - .332/.396/.500/.896 in 213 PAs.
———College - .341/.405/.515/.920
Like Saggese, Church's AAA stats have to translate to MLB or they're meaningless.
This is why I believe the hole in our coaching development program is actually at the major league level. It’s Ollie and his coaches that are the problem. Also see Walker and Gorman who have gone backwards under his his coaching.
No argument here C4C.
I'm not a fan of Oli and most of his staff (sans D. DeScalso and J. Jay).
Anyone who reads this board knows I am no Oli fan, but that argument above is flawed. Maybe they aren't getting good coaching at MLB level, BUT it is also a lot harder to play at this level than AAA. You might see one guy in a rotation at AAA who makes it in the show. In the big leagues, everyone has made it there.
But we're also talking about some top rated prospects bcc (from Carlson - Gorman - Walker) who've floundered once Oli and his gang got ahold of them.
While I agree MLB is NOT the place for developing players, even the greats can still benefit from good major league coaching (re: Albert after he went to the Dodgers and credited them for getting him back on track).
We saw D. Duncan coach up some pretty average pitchers and turn their careers around.
Coaching in MLB matters, the bulk of Oli's staff have failed.............hopefully Oli and most of them are gone after 2026.
Rock, you know and I agree on this topic, but just trying to bring a little sense to the argument. DC didn't do squat when he left here either. I agree that coaching matters, but the league history is littered with AAAA players too. Yes, I would love to see Oli and Blake replaced. Not sure why Bloom didn't do it yet, but he did not. I don't buy the ownership is cheap argument. They paid a ton to make Nado, SG, and WC contracts go away. Oli's contract is chump change. I know you are of the opinion that the change is made after this season, assuming a miracle doesn't occur and Oli leads the team to the playoffs. We shall see. Coaching has screwed up Walker, but not sure he can see the spin on the breaking ball well enough to lay off. Same with Gorman and high fastballs. Still, coaching can set a team objective, like take tough ABs and don't K. We have seen teams with that general approach go far in the post season. Anyway, new grass on the field... let's see what this season brings. JJ can hit, so hopefully that will be fun to watch.
Gotcha
But as you stated I don't think it was up to C. Bloom whether Oli and his staff stayed this season.
It's not that BDWJr is cheap but (IMO) he wasn't going to pay Oli and the bulk of his staff who are under contract for 2026 to sit on their rears AND pay a new Manager and his staff during this 2026 re-build season plus possibly during the 2027 lockout (manager and coaches still get paid).
(And if Oli leads this crew to a playoff spot, then he may win manager of the Year )
Church deservedly gets a look probably making the opening day roster as Noot most likely starts on the IL?
Moving Burleson to 1B and the dealing of Donovan makes Corner OF wide open.
Walker in RF and Church platoon in LF with Saggese?
Still not convinced Herrera stays at Catcher so he could factor potentially in LF at some point?
Primary DH most likely?
casey1024 wrote: ↑15 Feb 2026 08:34 am
I really like the kid. I'm usually wrong, but I like his tools. His speed is a mirror of Scott and so is the D. He looks like his bat to ball skills are superior to Scott"s. Would like to see those two battle it out and may the best man win!
Define what a "surprise" from Church might be.
.250 BA / 310 OBP and 250 20206 Pa's?
Something lees, something more?
No definition.......just better than expected
Which leaves the same question.
What are your expectations?
That would make him a better player at the MLB level than he was as a minor leaguer.
Simply an observation.
With all due respect......do you just want to argue? I'm high on life and love my Cards. I only get on here for fun. If what I said provoked you in some way.....please accept my apology........otherwise....just ignore this old man. Thanks in advance.
Again, merely an observation concerning Church.
I am kind and gracious to a fault - never disrespectful, never argumentative - and unfailingly seeking clarity from others so as to fully understand and correctly characterize every perspective.
Nothing wrong with having faith that Church will be as good or better as a MLB player as he was in the minor leagues - but having that as an actual expectation is a different matter entirely.
Let's see what happens.
Where is this observation coming from? .270 with .350 obp and 20-30 sb is literally right in line with his minor league career...?
Church has hit .281 with a .353 obp with 64 sb in 1550 minor league PA's. That's 25 sb pace for 600 PA's... Again, all these are right in line with above, so I'm confused by your observation
LOL
You beat me to it with your comment.
BTW....we ALL know where his observations are coming from!
)