The superstar effect being ignored by Cardinals.

[CorneliusWolfe]

What players do we have with 3-5 years of control that makes sense to try to extend? You still say the team has to figure out what we have in Burleson, Liberatore, etc.

I've said the new Cardinals regime needs to assess what they project Burleson, Liberatore, etc. will be over the next 3, 4, 5 years. I would hope/expect they already have made that assessment, at least based on what they know to date.

If you develop players you like, who you expect to be part of the core of your team, I want them through their prime seasons. Ideally, I'd give them a guaranteed contract through age 30 and try to get 1-2 team option years. So in Burleson's case it would 4 yrs. + 1-2 team option years. In Winn's case it would be 7 yrs. + 1-2 team option years.

I want them to have great careers with me and let them walk at age 31/32 so they can go find another team that will offer them a big contract while they decline in their 30s.

Why don’t we trade some of our prospects for some of the other teams young talent and extend them instead? Would it be so detrimental to the future if we still end up with a younger roster? Or do they have to be homegrown to maximize cheapness?

Again, in theory, yes. But, given where the roster currently stands, the issue is do they have enough minor league talent to (1) consolidate it by giving away multiple prospects for one (hypothetical) younger player while (2) still keeping enough prospects in the pipeline to be confident of delivering 3 successful rookies a year in 2026, 2027, 2028, 2029, etc.

If you have to trade 3-4 prospects for one young players, or 6-8 prospect for two young players, etc., you probably start to jeopardize what you are going to have coming in the pipeline in 2027, 2028, 2029, etc.

You’re being overprotective of the farm system to the point where it becomes the priority over the major league team. There are numerous ways to maintain the health of both if the team uses ALL mechanisms to manage them. Such as if you trade for a little quality for the big team, trade for a little quantity in the minors.

Also, what farm is churning out 3 top notch rookies every single year? Milwaukee might be close but still hasn’t won anything and no trophy to show for it.

Well, they are where they are because their player development system failed them. So maybe it's time to pay more attention to the foundation of the organization.

And I didn't say "3 top not rookies" every year. I said "successful". I explained that in another thread:

I'd consider success to be either:

(1) filling a "high value" roster position - as a starting position player, DH, starting pitcher, or closer (15 positions total) - at, at least, a league average level (and you need 2-4 of your young players to be better than just league average)

or

(2) filling a "lower value" roster position - as a bench player or non-closer reliever (11 positions) - at, at least, a league average level

Of your 18 effective pre-ARB and ARB year players, you need ~10 of them to fill "high value" roster positions and ~8 of them to fill "lower value" roster positions.

The system didn’t fail them, they failed to invest and failed the system. Just as a failure to invest in the big team will fail them too. Why should they get a pass for making the same kind of mistake? Cheap = failure to win the WS.

Splitting hairs on the 3 rookies aren’t you? “Successful” infers really good ones which would be top notch output.

"Successful", as I explained, could be a successful middle reliever or a successful bench infielder. Those are not "top notch" rookies - those are guys who are successful in a "lower value" supporting role. But even those lesser roles save the team maybe $4 or $5 million from not having go so sign an FA for that role.

And, for like the 1,000,000th time, no one has said that they are not going to eventually have to invest $180, $190 million in the ML roster.

They just don't need to do it right now, because they aren't close enough to being a real contender in 2026 even if they did.

For the 1 millionth time, I and many others think a rebuild plan can and should be dynamic and value incremental improvements instead of relying on a worst-to-first instant evolution.

And no one cares what you’ve said a million times over or when you quote yourself. We know who we’re arguing with and compounding your false narrative content and giving us links to the same old [shirt] doesn’t really move the needle of give you any additional credence. If I quote myself, would that make you more likely to see it my way?

[mattmitchl44]

For the 1 millionth time, I and many others think a rebuild plan can and should be dynamic and value incremental improvements instead of relying on a worst-to-first instant evolution.

I don't expect they are going to go "worst to first." Far from it.

I expect they are going to have a sub-.500 season in 2026. Then as Wetherholt, Doyle, Mathews, etc. come on line in 2026/2027, and we hopefully see more development from other players, I expect they could be close to 80 wins in 2027.

Then I'd expect them to ramp up by adding some talent by FA after the 2027 season. By 2028, an 85-89 win team that could make the postseason.

With more additions/development after 2028, by 2029 a 90+ roster than can really be a serious WS contender again.

[CorneliusWolfe]

For the 1 millionth time, I and many others think a rebuild plan can and should be dynamic and value incremental improvements instead of relying on a worst-to-first instant evolution.

I don't expect they are going to go "worst to first." Far from it.

I expect they are going to have a sub-.500 season in 2026. Then as Wetherholt, Doyle, Mathews, etc. come on line in 2026/2027, and we hopefully see more development from other players, I expect they could be close to 80 wins in 2027.

Then I'd expect them to ramp up by adding some talent by FA after the 2027 season. By 2028, an 85-89 win team that could make the postseason.

With more additions/development after 2028, by 2029 a 90+ roster than can really be a serious WS contender again.

A plan that can be accomplished in 3 years with barely even trying could probably be done sooner with some real effort and persistence.

[mattmitchl44]

For the 1 millionth time, I and many others think a rebuild plan can and should be dynamic and value incremental improvements instead of relying on a worst-to-first instant evolution.

I don't expect they are going to go "worst to first." Far from it.

I expect they are going to have a sub-.500 season in 2026. Then as Wetherholt, Doyle, Mathews, etc. come on line in 2026/2027, and we hopefully see more development from other players, I expect they could be close to 80 wins in 2027.

Then I'd expect them to ramp up by adding some talent by FA after the 2027 season. By 2028, an 85-89 win team that could make the postseason.

With more additions/development after 2028, by 2029 a 90+ roster than can really be a serious WS contender again.

A plan that can be accomplished in 3 years with barely even trying could probably be done sooner with some real effort and persistence.

It's going to take time to matriculate Wetherholt, Doyle (and/or Mathews, Baez, etc.) to the majors AND get them to producing at a 3+ fWAR level. You can't rush that faster than it is going to happen. Right now the priority should be on subtracting Donovan from the 2026 roster to add another ML-ready Wetherholt/Doyle prospect to give them another bite at the apple to getting 3+ fWAR players on the 2028/2029 roster.

That's the rate limiting step in all this that makes 2028, 2029 the objective, not 2026, 2027.

[CorneliusWolfe]

For the 1 millionth time, I and many others think a rebuild plan can and should be dynamic and value incremental improvements instead of relying on a worst-to-first instant evolution.

I don't expect they are going to go "worst to first." Far from it.

I expect they are going to have a sub-.500 season in 2026. Then as Wetherholt, Doyle, Mathews, etc. come on line in 2026/2027, and we hopefully see more development from other players, I expect they could be close to 80 wins in 2027.

Then I'd expect them to ramp up by adding some talent by FA after the 2027 season. By 2028, an 85-89 win team that could make the postseason.

With more additions/development after 2028, by 2029 a 90+ roster than can really be a serious WS contender again.

A plan that can be accomplished in 3 years with barely even trying could probably be done sooner with some real effort and persistence.

It's going to take time to matriculate Wetherholt, Doyle (and/or Mathews, Baez, etc.) to the majors AND get them to producing at a 3+ fWAR level. You can't rush that faster than it is going to happen. Right now the priority should be on subtracting Donovan from the 2026 roster to add another ML-ready Wetherholt/Doyle prospect to give them another bite at the apple to getting 3+ fWAR players on the 2028/2029 roster.

That's the rate limiting step in all this that makes 2028, 2029 the objective, not 2026, 2027.

Why can’t we trade a top prospect for a 3+ fWAR player now? See the endless loop we are in?

[2ninr]

How many superstars are there?

Los Angeles Dodgers: Shohei Ohtani, Mookie Betts, Freddie Freeman, Yoshinobu Yamamoto.
New York Yankees: Aaron Judge, Gerrit Cole, Max Fried
New York Mets: Juan Soto, Francisco Lindor.
Kansas City Royals: Bobby Witt Jr..
Seattle Mariners: Julio Rodriguez, Cal Raleigh.
Baltimore Orioles: Gunnar Henderson.
Pittsburgh Pirates: Paul Skenes.
Detroit Tigers: Tarik Skubal.
Philadelphia Phillies: Zack Wheeler, Bryce Harper, Trea Turner, Kyle Schwarber.
San Diego Padres: Fernando Tatis Jr., Manny Machado, Mason Miller
Arizona Diamondbacks: Corbin Carroll, Ketel Marte.
Houston Astros: Jeremy Peña, Yordan Alvarez, Josh Hader.
Texas Rangers: Corey Seager.
Toronto Blue Jays: Vladimir Guerrero Jr., Bo Bichette
Minnesota Twins: Byron Buxton.
Cincinnati Reds: Elly De La Cruz, Hunter Greene
Boston Red Sox: Garrett Crochet.
Atlanta Braves: Ronald Acuna, Ozzie Albies, Matt Olson, Austin Riley.
Tampa Bay Rays: Junior Caminero.
Las Vegas As: Nick Kurtz.
Milwaukee Brewers: Jackson Churio, Jacob Misiorowski
Chicago Cubs: Kyle Tucker.
Cleveland Guardians: Jose Ramirez.
Load Angeles Angels: Mike Trout.
Washington Nationals: James Wood.

Just a partial list off top of my head. All all star top 3 at position. And no Winn will never be anywhere close.

Winn is already close. GG SS . Willing to play without being 100%. He gets back to the approach at the plate he had in 24 he is a superstar just as much as most of those guys on your list.

Must be a top 5 SS bat along with his defense. Was 18th last year. Long way to go

I get your point that we need a few superstar players and at the present time we don't have that. But Winn will get there. Where is the rule that he has to be a top 5 offensive ss? It's ok to have your opinion-I certainly have mine. We could have a lengthy thread debating what qualifies as a superstar shortstop.

[mattmitchl44]

For the 1 millionth time, I and many others think a rebuild plan can and should be dynamic and value incremental improvements instead of relying on a worst-to-first instant evolution.

I don't expect they are going to go "worst to first." Far from it.

I expect they are going to have a sub-.500 season in 2026. Then as Wetherholt, Doyle, Mathews, etc. come on line in 2026/2027, and we hopefully see more development from other players, I expect they could be close to 80 wins in 2027.

Then I'd expect them to ramp up by adding some talent by FA after the 2027 season. By 2028, an 85-89 win team that could make the postseason.

With more additions/development after 2028, by 2029 a 90+ roster than can really be a serious WS contender again.

A plan that can be accomplished in 3 years with barely even trying could probably be done sooner with some real effort and persistence.

It's going to take time to matriculate Wetherholt, Doyle (and/or Mathews, Baez, etc.) to the majors AND get them to producing at a 3+ fWAR level. You can't rush that faster than it is going to happen. Right now the priority should be on subtracting Donovan from the 2026 roster to add another ML-ready Wetherholt/Doyle prospect to give them another bite at the apple to getting 3+ fWAR players on the 2028/2029 roster.

That's the rate limiting step in all this that makes 2028, 2029 the objective, not 2026, 2027.

Why can’t we trade a top prospect for a 3+ fWAR player now? See the endless loop we are in?

Can you trade for a 3+ fWAR player with 4-5 years of team control? That's what you really need. You need to add young, cost controlled talent that's going to be with you for 2026, 2027, 2028, 2029 and not cost a mint, not just talent. What team is going to give up that player?

And can you trade for them without giving up Wetherholt or Doyle in the process?

[Goldfan]

For the 1 millionth time, I and many others think a rebuild plan can and should be dynamic and value incremental improvements instead of relying on a worst-to-first instant evolution.

I don't expect they are going to go "worst to first." Far from it.

I expect they are going to have a sub-.500 season in 2026. Then as Wetherholt, Doyle, Mathews, etc. come on line in 2026/2027, and we hopefully see more development from other players, I expect they could be close to 80 wins in 2027.

Then I'd expect them to ramp up by adding some talent by FA after the 2027 season. By 2028, an 85-89 win team that could make the postseason.

With more additions/development after 2028, by 2029 a 90+ roster than can really be a serious WS contender again.

A plan that can be accomplished in 3 years with barely even trying could probably be done sooner with some real effort and persistence.

It's going to take time to matriculate Wetherholt, Doyle (and/or Mathews, Baez, etc.) to the majors AND get them to producing at a 3+ fWAR level. You can't rush that faster than it is going to happen. Right now the priority should be on subtracting Donovan from the 2026 roster to add another ML-ready Wetherholt/Doyle prospect to give them another bite at the apple to getting 3+ fWAR players on the 2028/2029 roster.

That's the rate limiting step in all this that makes 2028, 2029 the objective, not 2026, 2027.

Why can’t we trade a top prospect for a 3+ fWAR player now? See the endless loop we are in?

Can you trade for a 3+ fWAR player with 4-5 years of team control? That's what you really need. You need to add young, cost controlled talent that's going to be with you for 2026, 2027, 2028, 2029 and not cost a mint, not just talent. What team is going to give up that player?

And can you trade for them without giving up Wetherholt or Doyle in the process?

What you need are some talented winners, the current young crop to be led into becoming talented winnners, and a Manager/Pitching coach who alone put Wins in column. Your internally manufactured 3+ fWAR controlled fantasy has never happened in modern Cards History…..NEVER

[mattmitchl44]

For the 1 millionth time, I and many others think a rebuild plan can and should be dynamic and value incremental improvements instead of relying on a worst-to-first instant evolution.

I don't expect they are going to go "worst to first." Far from it.

I expect they are going to have a sub-.500 season in 2026. Then as Wetherholt, Doyle, Mathews, etc. come on line in 2026/2027, and we hopefully see more development from other players, I expect they could be close to 80 wins in 2027.

Then I'd expect them to ramp up by adding some talent by FA after the 2027 season. By 2028, an 85-89 win team that could make the postseason.

With more additions/development after 2028, by 2029 a 90+ roster than can really be a serious WS contender again.

A plan that can be accomplished in 3 years with barely even trying could probably be done sooner with some real effort and persistence.

It's going to take time to matriculate Wetherholt, Doyle (and/or Mathews, Baez, etc.) to the majors AND get them to producing at a 3+ fWAR level. You can't rush that faster than it is going to happen. Right now the priority should be on subtracting Donovan from the 2026 roster to add another ML-ready Wetherholt/Doyle prospect to give them another bite at the apple to getting 3+ fWAR players on the 2028/2029 roster.

That's the rate limiting step in all this that makes 2028, 2029 the objective, not 2026, 2027.

Why can’t we trade a top prospect for a 3+ fWAR player now? See the endless loop we are in?

Can you trade for a 3+ fWAR player with 4-5 years of team control? That's what you really need. You need to add young, cost controlled talent that's going to be with you for 2026, 2027, 2028, 2029 and not cost a mint, not just talent. What team is going to give up that player?

And can you trade for them without giving up Wetherholt or Doyle in the process?

What you need are some talented winners, the current young crop to be led into becoming talented winnners, and a Manager/Pitching coach who alone put Wins in column. Your internally manufactured 3+ fWAR controlled fantasy has never happened in modern Cards History…..NEVER

Pujols, Molina, Matt Carpenter, Edman, Wainwright, Morris, Lynn, Carlos Martinez, etc.

They've developed A LOT of guys who were 3+ fWAR players for multiple seasons.

[Goldfan]

For the 1 millionth time, I and many others think a rebuild plan can and should be dynamic and value incremental improvements instead of relying on a worst-to-first instant evolution.

I don't expect they are going to go "worst to first." Far from it.

I expect they are going to have a sub-.500 season in 2026. Then as Wetherholt, Doyle, Mathews, etc. come on line in 2026/2027, and we hopefully see more development from other players, I expect they could be close to 80 wins in 2027.

Then I'd expect them to ramp up by adding some talent by FA after the 2027 season. By 2028, an 85-89 win team that could make the postseason.

With more additions/development after 2028, by 2029 a 90+ roster than can really be a serious WS contender again.

A plan that can be accomplished in 3 years with barely even trying could probably be done sooner with some real effort and persistence.

It's going to take time to matriculate Wetherholt, Doyle (and/or Mathews, Baez, etc.) to the majors AND get them to producing at a 3+ fWAR level. You can't rush that faster than it is going to happen. Right now the priority should be on subtracting Donovan from the 2026 roster to add another ML-ready Wetherholt/Doyle prospect to give them another bite at the apple to getting 3+ fWAR players on the 2028/2029 roster.

That's the rate limiting step in all this that makes 2028, 2029 the objective, not 2026, 2027.

Why can’t we trade a top prospect for a 3+ fWAR player now? See the endless loop we are in?

Can you trade for a 3+ fWAR player with 4-5 years of team control? That's what you really need. You need to add young, cost controlled talent that's going to be with you for 2026, 2027, 2028, 2029 and not cost a mint, not just talent. What team is going to give up that player?

And can you trade for them without giving up Wetherholt or Doyle in the process?

What you need are some talented winners, the current young crop to be led into becoming talented winnners, and a Manager/Pitching coach who alone put Wins in column. Your internally manufactured 3+ fWAR controlled fantasy has never happened in modern Cards History…..NEVER

Pujols, Molina, Matt Carpenter, Edman, Wainwright, Morris, Lynn, Carlos Martinez, etc.

They've developed A LOT of guys who were 3+ fWAR players for multiple seasons.

Not at the SAME TIME

[mattmitchl44]

For the 1 millionth time, I and many others think a rebuild plan can and should be dynamic and value incremental improvements instead of relying on a worst-to-first instant evolution.

I don't expect they are going to go "worst to first." Far from it.

I expect they are going to have a sub-.500 season in 2026. Then as Wetherholt, Doyle, Mathews, etc. come on line in 2026/2027, and we hopefully see more development from other players, I expect they could be close to 80 wins in 2027.

Then I'd expect them to ramp up by adding some talent by FA after the 2027 season. By 2028, an 85-89 win team that could make the postseason.

With more additions/development after 2028, by 2029 a 90+ roster than can really be a serious WS contender again.

A plan that can be accomplished in 3 years with barely even trying could probably be done sooner with some real effort and persistence.

It's going to take time to matriculate Wetherholt, Doyle (and/or Mathews, Baez, etc.) to the majors AND get them to producing at a 3+ fWAR level. You can't rush that faster than it is going to happen. Right now the priority should be on subtracting Donovan from the 2026 roster to add another ML-ready Wetherholt/Doyle prospect to give them another bite at the apple to getting 3+ fWAR players on the 2028/2029 roster.

That's the rate limiting step in all this that makes 2028, 2029 the objective, not 2026, 2027.

Why can’t we trade a top prospect for a 3+ fWAR player now? See the endless loop we are in?

Can you trade for a 3+ fWAR player with 4-5 years of team control? That's what you really need. You need to add young, cost controlled talent that's going to be with you for 2026, 2027, 2028, 2029 and not cost a mint, not just talent. What team is going to give up that player?

And can you trade for them without giving up Wetherholt or Doyle in the process?

What you need are some talented winners, the current young crop to be led into becoming talented winnners, and a Manager/Pitching coach who alone put Wins in column. Your internally manufactured 3+ fWAR controlled fantasy has never happened in modern Cards History…..NEVER

Pujols, Molina, Matt Carpenter, Edman, Wainwright, Morris, Lynn, Carlos Martinez, etc.

They've developed A LOT of guys who were 3+ fWAR players for multiple seasons.

Not at the SAME TIME

I ever never said anything about "an entire starting squad of these 3-4 WAR players."

I've said that, at a minimum, that Cardinals need to add one more 3+ fWAR position player (Wetherholt) and a 3+ fWAR SP (Doyle). And they likely need to add a couple of young, cost controlled, lesser players with them.

They are a Weatherholt, Doyle, and a little bit more away from having a foundation to build on.

[Goldfan]

For the 1 millionth time, I and many others think a rebuild plan can and should be dynamic and value incremental improvements instead of relying on a worst-to-first instant evolution.

I don't expect they are going to go "worst to first." Far from it.

I expect they are going to have a sub-.500 season in 2026. Then as Wetherholt, Doyle, Mathews, etc. come on line in 2026/2027, and we hopefully see more development from other players, I expect they could be close to 80 wins in 2027.

Then I'd expect them to ramp up by adding some talent by FA after the 2027 season. By 2028, an 85-89 win team that could make the postseason.

With more additions/development after 2028, by 2029 a 90+ roster than can really be a serious WS contender again.

A plan that can be accomplished in 3 years with barely even trying could probably be done sooner with some real effort and persistence.

It's going to take time to matriculate Wetherholt, Doyle (and/or Mathews, Baez, etc.) to the majors AND get them to producing at a 3+ fWAR level. You can't rush that faster than it is going to happen. Right now the priority should be on subtracting Donovan from the 2026 roster to add another ML-ready Wetherholt/Doyle prospect to give them another bite at the apple to getting 3+ fWAR players on the 2028/2029 roster.

That's the rate limiting step in all this that makes 2028, 2029 the objective, not 2026, 2027.

Why can’t we trade a top prospect for a 3+ fWAR player now? See the endless loop we are in?

Can you trade for a 3+ fWAR player with 4-5 years of team control? That's what you really need. You need to add young, cost controlled talent that's going to be with you for 2026, 2027, 2028, 2029 and not cost a mint, not just talent. What team is going to give up that player?

And can you trade for them without giving up Wetherholt or Doyle in the process?

What you need are some talented winners, the current young crop to be led into becoming talented winnners, and a Manager/Pitching coach who alone put Wins in column. Your internally manufactured 3+ fWAR controlled fantasy has never happened in modern Cards History…..NEVER

Pujols, Molina, Matt Carpenter, Edman, Wainwright, Morris, Lynn, Carlos Martinez, etc.

They've developed A LOT of guys who were 3+ fWAR players for multiple seasons.

Not at the SAME TIME

I ever never said anything about "an entire starting squad of these 3-4 WAR players."

I've said that, at a minimum, that Cardinals need to add one more 3+ fWAR position player (Wetherholt) and a 3+ fWAR SP (Doyle). And they likely need to add a couple of young, cost controlled, lesser players with them.

They are a Weatherholt, Doyle, and a little bit more away from having a foundation to build on.

There’s nothing in the MLB rule book that states you can’t add vet talent to a mostly young team, continue building the foundation that will ascend to MLB at some point, and WIN MLB games.
You’ve all but acquiesced to the fact that there is talent in the positional starters now and with JJ and perhaps Baez you’re only a couple bats away.
Add a 1 or 2 SP and you might be in playoffs.

[CorneliusWolfe]

For the 1 millionth time, I and many others think a rebuild plan can and should be dynamic and value incremental improvements instead of relying on a worst-to-first instant evolution.

I don't expect they are going to go "worst to first." Far from it.

I expect they are going to have a sub-.500 season in 2026. Then as Wetherholt, Doyle, Mathews, etc. come on line in 2026/2027, and we hopefully see more development from other players, I expect they could be close to 80 wins in 2027.

Then I'd expect them to ramp up by adding some talent by FA after the 2027 season. By 2028, an 85-89 win team that could make the postseason.

With more additions/development after 2028, by 2029 a 90+ roster than can really be a serious WS contender again.

A plan that can be accomplished in 3 years with barely even trying could probably be done sooner with some real effort and persistence.

It's going to take time to matriculate Wetherholt, Doyle (and/or Mathews, Baez, etc.) to the majors AND get them to producing at a 3+ fWAR level. You can't rush that faster than it is going to happen. Right now the priority should be on subtracting Donovan from the 2026 roster to add another ML-ready Wetherholt/Doyle prospect to give them another bite at the apple to getting 3+ fWAR players on the 2028/2029 roster.

That's the rate limiting step in all this that makes 2028, 2029 the objective, not 2026, 2027.

Why can’t we trade a top prospect for a 3+ fWAR player now? See the endless loop we are in?

Can you trade for a 3+ fWAR player with 4-5 years of team control? That's what you really need. You need to add young, cost controlled talent that's going to be with you for 2026, 2027, 2028, 2029 and not cost a mint, not just talent. What team is going to give up that player?

And can you trade for them without giving up Wetherholt or Doyle in the process?

They don’t have to have come with 4+ years of control. We can extend acquisitions same as our own homegrown players. Like we did with Matt Holiday. Though that was more of a free agent re-signing situation, but you can still retain them. It’s just going to cost some money sooner than later, and that’s probably a deal breaker for the DeWitt family fortune preservationists.

[CorneliusWolfe]

For the 1 millionth time, I and many others think a rebuild plan can and should be dynamic and value incremental improvements instead of relying on a worst-to-first instant evolution.

I don't expect they are going to go "worst to first." Far from it.

I expect they are going to have a sub-.500 season in 2026. Then as Wetherholt, Doyle, Mathews, etc. come on line in 2026/2027, and we hopefully see more development from other players, I expect they could be close to 80 wins in 2027.

Then I'd expect them to ramp up by adding some talent by FA after the 2027 season. By 2028, an 85-89 win team that could make the postseason.

With more additions/development after 2028, by 2029 a 90+ roster than can really be a serious WS contender again.

A plan that can be accomplished in 3 years with barely even trying could probably be done sooner with some real effort and persistence.

It's going to take time to matriculate Wetherholt, Doyle (and/or Mathews, Baez, etc.) to the majors AND get them to producing at a 3+ fWAR level. You can't rush that faster than it is going to happen. Right now the priority should be on subtracting Donovan from the 2026 roster to add another ML-ready Wetherholt/Doyle prospect to give them another bite at the apple to getting 3+ fWAR players on the 2028/2029 roster.

That's the rate limiting step in all this that makes 2028, 2029 the objective, not 2026, 2027.

Why can’t we trade a top prospect for a 3+ fWAR player now? See the endless loop we are in?

Can you trade for a 3+ fWAR player with 4-5 years of team control? That's what you really need. You need to add young, cost controlled talent that's going to be with you for 2026, 2027, 2028, 2029 and not cost a mint, not just talent. What team is going to give up that player?

And can you trade for them without giving up Wetherholt or Doyle in the process?

What you need are some talented winners, the current young crop to be led into becoming talented winnners, and a Manager/Pitching coach who alone put Wins in column. Your internally manufactured 3+ fWAR controlled fantasy has never happened in modern Cards History…..NEVER

Pujols, Molina, Matt Carpenter, Edman, Wainwright, Morris, Lynn, Carlos Martinez, etc.

They've developed A LOT of guys who were 3+ fWAR players for multiple seasons.

Not at the SAME TIME

I ever never said anything about "an entire starting squad of these 3-4 WAR players."

I've said that, at a minimum, that Cardinals need to add one more 3+ fWAR position player (Wetherholt) and a 3+ fWAR SP (Doyle). And they likely need to add a couple of young, cost controlled, lesser players with them.

They are a Weatherholt, Doyle, and a little bit more away from having a foundation to build on.

There’s nothing in the MLB rule book that states you can’t add vet talent to a mostly young team, continue building the foundation that will ascend to MLB at some point, and WIN MLB games.
You’ve all but acquiesced to the fact that there is talent in the positional starters now and with JJ and perhaps Baez you’re only a couple bats away.
Add a 1 or 2 SP and you might be in playoffs.

Exactly. He just thinks it’s going to ruin the whole plan if they make a move before 2028 or whatever his master plan is. I say jump when the opportunity presents itself, if it’s a year or two early who cares if you get the right player that fits the need. There’s no guarantee of a perfect buffet of the right players of need at that exact time.

[mattmitchl44]

For the 1 millionth time, I and many others think a rebuild plan can and should be dynamic and value incremental improvements instead of relying on a worst-to-first instant evolution.

I don't expect they are going to go "worst to first." Far from it.

I expect they are going to have a sub-.500 season in 2026. Then as Wetherholt, Doyle, Mathews, etc. come on line in 2026/2027, and we hopefully see more development from other players, I expect they could be close to 80 wins in 2027.

Then I'd expect them to ramp up by adding some talent by FA after the 2027 season. By 2028, an 85-89 win team that could make the postseason.

With more additions/development after 2028, by 2029 a 90+ roster than can really be a serious WS contender again.

A plan that can be accomplished in 3 years with barely even trying could probably be done sooner with some real effort and persistence.

It's going to take time to matriculate Wetherholt, Doyle (and/or Mathews, Baez, etc.) to the majors AND get them to producing at a 3+ fWAR level. You can't rush that faster than it is going to happen. Right now the priority should be on subtracting Donovan from the 2026 roster to add another ML-ready Wetherholt/Doyle prospect to give them another bite at the apple to getting 3+ fWAR players on the 2028/2029 roster.

That's the rate limiting step in all this that makes 2028, 2029 the objective, not 2026, 2027.

Why can’t we trade a top prospect for a 3+ fWAR player now? See the endless loop we are in?

Can you trade for a 3+ fWAR player with 4-5 years of team control? That's what you really need. You need to add young, cost controlled talent that's going to be with you for 2026, 2027, 2028, 2029 and not cost a mint, not just talent. What team is going to give up that player?

And can you trade for them without giving up Wetherholt or Doyle in the process?

They don’t have to have come with 4+ years of control. We can extend acquisitions same as our own homegrown players. Like we did with Matt Holiday. Though that was more of a free agent re-signing situation, but you can still retain them. It’s just going to cost some money sooner than later, and that’s probably a deal breaker for the DeWitt family fortune preservationists.

The reason you have to develop young, cost controlled talent is because it is cost controlled. You're developing "value" - production greater than payroll cost - which you desperately need if a $180 million roster is going to compete with others that are $250, $275, $300 million.

If you propose to trade prospects for other young, cost controlled players, fine. But if you are trading prospects for guys you are going to have to pay at full market value rates in two years, you aren't achieving the same objective - you aren't getting "value" anymore.

[mattmitchl44]

For the 1 millionth time, I and many others think a rebuild plan can and should be dynamic and value incremental improvements instead of relying on a worst-to-first instant evolution.

I don't expect they are going to go "worst to first." Far from it.

I expect they are going to have a sub-.500 season in 2026. Then as Wetherholt, Doyle, Mathews, etc. come on line in 2026/2027, and we hopefully see more development from other players, I expect they could be close to 80 wins in 2027.

Then I'd expect them to ramp up by adding some talent by FA after the 2027 season. By 2028, an 85-89 win team that could make the postseason.

With more additions/development after 2028, by 2029 a 90+ roster than can really be a serious WS contender again.

A plan that can be accomplished in 3 years with barely even trying could probably be done sooner with some real effort and persistence.

It's going to take time to matriculate Wetherholt, Doyle (and/or Mathews, Baez, etc.) to the majors AND get them to producing at a 3+ fWAR level. You can't rush that faster than it is going to happen. Right now the priority should be on subtracting Donovan from the 2026 roster to add another ML-ready Wetherholt/Doyle prospect to give them another bite at the apple to getting 3+ fWAR players on the 2028/2029 roster.

That's the rate limiting step in all this that makes 2028, 2029 the objective, not 2026, 2027.

Why can’t we trade a top prospect for a 3+ fWAR player now? See the endless loop we are in?

Can you trade for a 3+ fWAR player with 4-5 years of team control? That's what you really need. You need to add young, cost controlled talent that's going to be with you for 2026, 2027, 2028, 2029 and not cost a mint, not just talent. What team is going to give up that player?

And can you trade for them without giving up Wetherholt or Doyle in the process?

What you need are some talented winners, the current young crop to be led into becoming talented winnners, and a Manager/Pitching coach who alone put Wins in column. Your internally manufactured 3+ fWAR controlled fantasy has never happened in modern Cards History…..NEVER

Pujols, Molina, Matt Carpenter, Edman, Wainwright, Morris, Lynn, Carlos Martinez, etc.

They've developed A LOT of guys who were 3+ fWAR players for multiple seasons.

Not at the SAME TIME

I ever never said anything about "an entire starting squad of these 3-4 WAR players."

I've said that, at a minimum, that Cardinals need to add one more 3+ fWAR position player (Wetherholt) and a 3+ fWAR SP (Doyle). And they likely need to add a couple of young, cost controlled, lesser players with them.

They are a Weatherholt, Doyle, and a little bit more away from having a foundation to build on.

There’s nothing in the MLB rule book that states you can’t add vet talent to a mostly young team, continue building the foundation that will ascend to MLB at some point, and WIN MLB games.
You’ve all but acquiesced to the fact that there is talent in the positional starters now and with JJ and perhaps Baez you’re only a couple bats away.
Add a 1 or 2 SP and you might be in playoffs.

Again - as I've stated before - I support the idea of them adding veterans on short 1-2 year deals. Those types of players are very unlikely to make you competitive in 2026 or 2027, but they could at least potentially be traded later for more prospects.