Are odds good that Cardinals will add a player to Donovan deal to finalize the trade ?

[Melville]

Donovan is always going to be the main topic, but of course Romero, Noot or other players can be a part of a multi-player package.

The CORRECT BASEBALL DECISION is for STL to attempt to extend Donovan and trade him before the July deadline if he does not sign.
However, if Bloom is determined to trade him in the off-season, I have long advised it big a larger and more significant package deal.
Romero, Moot, Walker, Bernal, Mathews, Hence and several others should all be part of the consideration.

why would you trade Mathews? he's exactly what you should be trading for

Fair question.
Doyle, Clarke, Henderson, Mautz, Hjerpe.
Not all can fit onto the LH starting pitcher role for STL (of course, not all will ever establish themselves at the MLB level).
But that depth does make Mathews expendable and the key with prospects is knowing who to keep and when to deal the others.
If Mathews can be packaged to obtain badly needed outfield talent already at the MLB level, it would rather obviously be the CORRECT BASEBALL DECISION.

Don’t quite understand the ‘not all can fit into the lefty starting pitcher role’ as it implies that a team should have ONE starting lefty.
Even with a ton of righty batters in MLB I would be open minded and not limit the number.
Ex. If I had Kershaw, Sabathia, R. Johnson, Carlton I would not care if I had only one right hand starter or even none.
If the top Cardinal pitchers are several lefty guys then go with them . It appears that Libby and Doyle are already two .

Kindly allow me to further unpack the point.
One - you are looking at it from STL's perspective - rather than the wants / needs of other teams.
Two - trades are best made from an area of depth from one team to an area of dearth with another.
Three - as you point out, Liberatore and Doyle are already in STL's long-term plans, as are McGreevy, Fitts, and potentially Leahy - with May being in the picture for at least 1-2 years.
Four - with Mathews, Clarke, Henderson, Mautz, Hjerpe all currently chasing the 6 listed above, there is redundancy.
Five - with starting pitchers always being highly valued - and LH starters in particular - there may very well be an opportunity to deal Mathews as part of an effort to add RH hitting position player talent.
Easy.
Obvious.
Correct.

Just because you have some depth at starting pitching doesn’t mean you trade them. The Cardinals thought they had outfield depth when they traded arorozorena they thought they had starting pitching depth when they traded gallen and alcantara also. Starting pitching depth goes away very quickly with injuries and ineffectiveness I would rather them keep the starting pitching depth so they aren’t stuck like season running the same terrible starters out there start after start because you can’t replace them. The correct choice is to trade Donovan for an outfield and starting pitching prospect. If they develop five good cost controlled starters they can spend money on outfield help

We respectfully disagree.

[sikeston bulldog2]

Donovan is always going to be the main topic, but of course Romero, Noot or other players can be a part of a multi-player package.

The CORRECT BASEBALL DECISION is for STL to attempt to extend Donovan and trade him before the July deadline if he does not sign.
However, if Bloom is determined to trade him in the off-season, I have long advised it big a larger and more significant package deal.
Romero, Moot, Walker, Bernal, Mathews, Hence and several others should all be part of the consideration.

why would you trade Mathews? he's exactly what you should be trading for

Fair question.
Doyle, Clarke, Henderson, Mautz, Hjerpe.
Not all can fit onto the LH starting pitcher role for STL (of course, not all will ever establish themselves at the MLB level).
But that depth does make Mathews expendable and the key with prospects is knowing who to keep and when to deal the others.
If Mathews can be packaged to obtain badly needed outfield talent already at the MLB level, it would rather obviously be the CORRECT BASEBALL DECISION.

Don’t quite understand the ‘not all can fit into the lefty starting pitcher role’ as it implies that a team should have ONE starting lefty.
Even with a ton of righty batters in MLB I would be open minded and not limit the number.
Ex. If I had Kershaw, Sabathia, R. Johnson, Carlton I would not care if I had only one right hand starter or even none.
If the top Cardinal pitchers are several lefty guys then go with them . It appears that Libby and Doyle are already two .

Kindly allow me to further unpack the point.
One - you are looking at it from STL's perspective - rather than the wants / needs of other teams.
Two - trades are best made from an area of depth from one team to an area of dearth with another.
Three - as you point out, Liberatore and Doyle are already in STL's long-term plans, as are McGreevy, Fitts, and potentially Leahy - with May being in the picture for at least 1-2 years.
Four - with Mathews, Clarke, Henderson, Mautz, Hjerpe all currently chasing the 6 listed above, there is redundancy.
Five - with starting pitchers always being highly valued - and LH starters in particular - there may very well be an opportunity to deal Mathews as part of an effort to add RH hitting position player talent.
Easy.
Obvious.
Correct.

One- you need to look at it from STL perspective. Could care less about needs of other team. They will get what they play for.

Two- and the are made from depth to depth.

Three- no issue. Probably right.

Four. True. But do like that depth.

Five. I agree.

[renostl]

That may be possible but we are entirely in the dark making guesses. The way I’m looking at this is the Cardinals aren’t happy with what has been offered and are holding out for a change of heart from a team.

Maybe the possible availability of Marte is slowing some teams down. He’s a better player who could be used at the same position as Donovan. I’ve heard Seattle has interest in both players. I’ve heard Boston has interest in both. Same with the Mets. Same with the Yankees. I think when Arizona makes a decision on Marte then some teams will change their focus back to Donovan.

The one thing that has baffled me is if there was all of this interest in Donovan from all of these teams and the Cardinals according to a report from Woo have narrowed it down to players from the Mariners and the Giants, no one was going to offer more than what the Giants offered? The Giants don’t have a lot to offer but that wasn’t hard to beat. The Yankees, the Mets, the Sox could all do better if there was true interest unless they are holding back trying to offer more to acquire Marte.

The Mariners I’m not understanding unless they are also holding back hoping to land Marte. The Mariners don’t want to offer up any starters from the major league staff and want to hang onto their top pitching prospects also. I understand that to a point but if you want to make a deal then you have be a little flexible. You will give up your #3 and #7 prospects but you won’t give up your #4 prospect.

This is all speculation because we don’t really know what is going on but I think that Marte might be slowing things up a little. I think the Cardinals would do a deal with Martes and Sloan, even if they have to add another piece but maybe the Mariners can’t make that commitment with the possibility of Marte being available. If the Mariners keep their current starting rotation and the Cardinals aren’t asking for the Mariners top pitching prospect in Cade Anderson, is Sloan such a deal breaker he couldn’t be in this deal. He’s still a couple of years away and things change a lot in a couple of years.

To answer your question maybe the Cardinals do add a Romero to this deal to get a player they would rather have although BTV probably finds a Sloan and Martes deal not that much out of line. I think that once the Marte situation clears up, maybe a couple more suitors take more interest.

Totally agree that it is guess work.
It might even be speculation with we go on what teams have done in the past.

IMO, Seattle will have to leave their comfort zone this off season OR have a good chance
of regression. Marte is more impactful for them than BD. He also is further away from their
comfort zone. He has a contract that goes past his mid 30's and his ask may require players
from the roster or first in line for the roster. AZ wanting 2026 help. My guess.

The hold up may well be on the Cardinals side waiting on 2 or 3 teams that have
appealing deals on the table and for 1 of them to separate themselves. IF Bregman
would just sign with the Cubs or Tigers this would hasten things.

[rockondlouie]

Not sure why so many keep wanting B. Miller.

-Going into his age 27/28 season, he's not a young starter

-His 2025 was "A. Pallante-like":

Miller

18 GS
5.68 ERA
1.41 WHiP
7.4 SO9

Pallante

31 GS
5.31 ERA
1.45 WHiP
6.1 SO9

He might work out but I'd shot higher if I were Bloom.

[TraveledLessRoad]

We aren't really comparing Bryce Miller to Andre Pallante, are we?

[renostl]

Not sure why so many keep wanting B. Miller.

-Going into his age 27/28 season, he's not a young starter

-His 2025 was "A. Pallante-like":

Miller

18 GS
5.68 ERA
1.41 WHiP
7.4 SO9

Pallante

31 GS
5.31 ERA
1.45 WHiP
6.1 SO9

He might work out but I'd shot higher if I were Bloom.

We should be able to give the man having a difficult season. That happens. IF the
reasons he had a bad season are concerning, then they should not consider him.

Going back to his best season 2024 when there weren't issues there still could be concerns.
Home/Road splits are significant, IMO. era 1.96/4.07 SO 111/60, SO9 10.4/6.4, HR 6/15
Games 16/15.

He's young has upside as long as healthy. Seattle favored pitching a lot prior to 2025.
Should no more be discounted than we do with Coors numbers. Issues with the batters eye.

[Whatashame]

That may be possible but we are entirely in the dark making guesses. The way I’m looking at this is the Cardinals aren’t happy with what has been offered and are holding out for a change of heart from a team.

Maybe the possible availability of Marte is slowing some teams down. He’s a better player who could be used at the same position as Donovan. I’ve heard Seattle has interest in both players. I’ve heard Boston has interest in both. Same with the Mets. Same with the Yankees. I think when Arizona makes a decision on Marte then some teams will change their focus back to Donovan.

The one thing that has baffled me is if there was all of this interest in Donovan from all of these teams and the Cardinals according to a report from Woo have narrowed it down to players from the Mariners and the Giants, no one was going to offer more than what the Giants offered? The Giants don’t have a lot to offer but that wasn’t hard to beat. The Yankees, the Mets, the Sox could all do better if there was true interest unless they are holding back trying to offer more to acquire Marte.

The Mariners I’m not understanding unless they are also holding back hoping to land Marte. The Mariners don’t want to offer up any starters from the major league staff and want to hang onto their top pitching prospects also. I understand that to a point but if you want to make a deal then you have be a little flexible. You will give up your #3 and #7 prospects but you won’t give up your #4 prospect.

This is all speculation because we don’t really know what is going on but I think that Marte might be slowing things up a little. I think the Cardinals would do a deal with Martes and Sloan, even if they have to add another piece but maybe the Mariners can’t make that commitment with the possibility of Marte being available. If the Mariners keep their current starting rotation and the Cardinals aren’t asking for the Mariners top pitching prospect in Cade Anderson, is Sloan such a deal breaker he couldn’t be in this deal. He’s still a couple of years away and things change a lot in a couple of years.

To answer your question maybe the Cardinals do add a Romero to this deal to get a player they would rather have although BTV probably finds a Sloan and Martes deal not that much out of line. I think that once the Marte situation clears up, maybe a couple more suitors take more interest.

Totally agree that it is guess work.
It might even be speculation with we go on what teams have done in the past.

IMO, Seattle will have to leave their comfort zone this off season OR have a good chance
of regression. Marte is more impactful for them than BD. He also is further away from their
comfort zone. He has a contract that goes past his mid 30's and his ask may require players
from the roster or first in line for the roster. AZ wanting 2026 help. My guess.

The hold up may well be on the Cardinals side waiting on 2 or 3 teams that have
appealing deals on the table and for 1 of them to separate themselves. IF Bregman
would just sign with the Cubs or Tigers this would hasten things.

We are probably looking at this very similarly. I mentioned Marte but Bregman could also be holding things up as teams who are involved in these guys might also be involved in obtaining Donovan. I don’t think that Bloom is being that unreasonable in his asking price and patience is necessary here. Patience isn’t always one of my best virtues. I’m anxious to see the actual results but we don’t have a lot of options but to trust in Bloom.

I also agree about comfort zones. If Seattle wants to gain traction as a team, coming out of their comfort zone might be a necessity for them. I also think we are going to learn about Bloom and his establishing our comfort zone under him.

[renostl]

That may be possible but we are entirely in the dark making guesses. The way I’m looking at this is the Cardinals aren’t happy with what has been offered and are holding out for a change of heart from a team.

Maybe the possible availability of Marte is slowing some teams down. He’s a better player who could be used at the same position as Donovan. I’ve heard Seattle has interest in both players. I’ve heard Boston has interest in both. Same with the Mets. Same with the Yankees. I think when Arizona makes a decision on Marte then some teams will change their focus back to Donovan.

The one thing that has baffled me is if there was all of this interest in Donovan from all of these teams and the Cardinals according to a report from Woo have narrowed it down to players from the Mariners and the Giants, no one was going to offer more than what the Giants offered? The Giants don’t have a lot to offer but that wasn’t hard to beat. The Yankees, the Mets, the Sox could all do better if there was true interest unless they are holding back trying to offer more to acquire Marte.

The Mariners I’m not understanding unless they are also holding back hoping to land Marte. The Mariners don’t want to offer up any starters from the major league staff and want to hang onto their top pitching prospects also. I understand that to a point but if you want to make a deal then you have be a little flexible. You will give up your #3 and #7 prospects but you won’t give up your #4 prospect.

This is all speculation because we don’t really know what is going on but I think that Marte might be slowing things up a little. I think the Cardinals would do a deal with Martes and Sloan, even if they have to add another piece but maybe the Mariners can’t make that commitment with the possibility of Marte being available. If the Mariners keep their current starting rotation and the Cardinals aren’t asking for the Mariners top pitching prospect in Cade Anderson, is Sloan such a deal breaker he couldn’t be in this deal. He’s still a couple of years away and things change a lot in a couple of years.

To answer your question maybe the Cardinals do add a Romero to this deal to get a player they would rather have although BTV probably finds a Sloan and Martes deal not that much out of line. I think that once the Marte situation clears up, maybe a couple more suitors take more interest.

Totally agree that it is guess work.
It might even be speculation with we go on what teams have done in the past.

IMO, Seattle will have to leave their comfort zone this off season OR have a good chance
of regression. Marte is more impactful for them than BD. He also is further away from their
comfort zone. He has a contract that goes past his mid 30's and his ask may require players
from the roster or first in line for the roster. AZ wanting 2026 help. My guess.

The hold up may well be on the Cardinals side waiting on 2 or 3 teams that have
appealing deals on the table and for 1 of them to separate themselves. IF Bregman
would just sign with the Cubs or Tigers this would hasten things.

We are probably looking at this very similarly. I mentioned Marte but Bregman could also be holding things up as teams who are involved in these guys might also be involved in obtaining Donovan. I don’t think that Bloom is being that unreasonable in his asking price and patience is necessary here. Patience isn’t always one of my best virtues. I’m anxious to see the actual results but we don’t have a lot of options but to trust in Bloom.

I also agree about comfort zones. If Seattle wants to gain traction as a team, coming out of their comfort zone might be a necessity for them. I also think we are going to learn about Bloom and his establishing our comfort zone under him.

It's interesting anyway.

[Hoosier59]

Not sure why so many keep wanting B. Miller.

-Going into his age 27/28 season, he's not a young starter

-His 2025 was "A. Pallante-like":

Miller

18 GS
5.68 ERA
1.41 WHiP
7.4 SO9

Pallante

31 GS
5.31 ERA
1.45 WHiP
6.1 SO9

He might work out but I'd shot higher if I were Bloom.

We should be able to give the man having a difficult season. That happens. IF the
reasons he had a bad season are concerning, then they should not consider him.

Going back to his best season 2024 when there weren't issues there still could be concerns.
Home/Road splits are significant, IMO. era 1.96/4.07 SO 111/60, SO9 10.4/6.4, HR 6/15
Games 16/15.

He's young has upside as long as healthy. Seattle favored pitching a lot prior to 2025.
Should no more be discounted than we do with Coors numbers. Issues with the batters eye.

So, you are saying that we should give Miller a pass on last season, because the season before, he was good. That everyone can have a bad year? I absolutely agree with you, however, why aren’t you doing the same thing with Pallante? Andre finished 2024 very well, and almost everyone on here was singing his praises. He had a bad 2025, no doubt, but nobody seems to think that that was an outlier season, and now he is just trash! Everyone is also excited about getting May! He was bad last year, and hardly pitched the two years before that. Quite a fickle group, if you ask me.

[renostl]

Not sure why so many keep wanting B. Miller.

-Going into his age 27/28 season, he's not a young starter

-His 2025 was "A. Pallante-like":

Miller

18 GS
5.68 ERA
1.41 WHiP
7.4 SO9

Pallante

31 GS
5.31 ERA
1.45 WHiP
6.1 SO9

He might work out but I'd shot higher if I were Bloom.

We should be able to give the man having a difficult season. That happens. IF the
reasons he had a bad season are concerning, then they should not consider him.

Going back to his best season 2024 when there weren't issues there still could be concerns.
Home/Road splits are significant, IMO. era 1.96/4.07 SO 111/60, SO9 10.4/6.4, HR 6/15
Games 16/15.

He's young has upside as long as healthy. Seattle favored pitching a lot prior to 2025.
Should no more be discounted than we do with Coors numbers. Issues with the batters eye.

So, you are saying that we should give Miller a pass on last season, because the season before, he was good. That everyone can have a bad year? I absolutely agree with you, however, why aren’t you doing the same thing with Pallante? Andre finished 2024 very well, and almost everyone on here was singing his praises. He had a bad 2025, no doubt, but nobody seems to think that that was an outlier season, and now he is just trash! Everyone is also excited about getting May! He was bad last year, and hardly pitched the two years before that. Quite a fickle group, if you ask me.

I actually have referred to Pallante 2024 in other threads. I've said nothing about AP here.
He'll need improvement. It's possible. The Cards aren't potentially trading Donnie for him though.

I would give neither a complete pass. "If the reasons that he had a bad season are concerning they
should not consider him" Then I brought up examples of Millers 2024 that should be noticed.
That even in Millers good year there were some bad splits.

That's Rock comparing the 2

[rockondlouie]

We aren't really comparing Bryce Miller to Andre Pallante, are we?

And we're not think B. Miller is anything more than a low end #3 or #4 starter either, are we?

[Melville]

We aren't really comparing Bryce Miller to Andre Pallante, are we?

And we're not think B. Miller is anything more than a low end #3 or #4 starter either, are we?

Surely you will concede that Miller has a much higher ceiling than Pallante?

[rockondlouie]

We aren't really comparing Bryce Miller to Andre Pallante, are we?

And we're not think B. Miller is anything more than a low end #3 or #4 starter either, are we?

Surely you will concede that Miller has a much higher ceiling than Pallante?

That a very, very low bar mel.

IF Miller were 24 yrs old, then I would think differently.

But he's going into his age 27/28 season, what makes anyone think that his 2025 season (again, Pallante-like) foreshadows him being a FOTR starter?

Hey..... if we do get him, then I hope you guys are right.

[82birds]

That may be possible but we are entirely in the dark making guesses. The way I’m looking at this is the Cardinals aren’t happy with what has been offered and are holding out for a change of heart from a team.

Maybe the possible availability of Marte is slowing some teams down. He’s a better player who could be used at the same position as Donovan. I’ve heard Seattle has interest in both players. I’ve heard Boston has interest in both. Same with the Mets. Same with the Yankees. I think when Arizona makes a decision on Marte then some teams will change their focus back to Donovan.

The one thing that has baffled me is if there was all of this interest in Donovan from all of these teams and the Cardinals according to a report from Woo have narrowed it down to players from the Mariners and the Giants, no one was going to offer more than what the Giants offered? The Giants don’t have a lot to offer but that wasn’t hard to beat. The Yankees, the Mets, the Sox could all do better if there was true interest unless they are holding back trying to offer more to acquire Marte.

The Mariners I’m not understanding unless they are also holding back hoping to land Marte. The Mariners don’t want to offer up any starters from the major league staff and want to hang onto their top pitching prospects also. I understand that to a point but if you want to make a deal then you have be a little flexible. You will give up your #3 and #7 prospects but you won’t give up your #4 prospect.

This is all speculation because we don’t really know what is going on but I think that Marte might be slowing things up a little. I think the Cardinals would do a deal with Martes and Sloan, even if they have to add another piece but maybe the Mariners can’t make that commitment with the possibility of Marte being available. If the Mariners keep their current starting rotation and the Cardinals aren’t asking for the Mariners top pitching prospect in Cade Anderson, is Sloan such a deal breaker he couldn’t be in this deal. He’s still a couple of years away and things change a lot in a couple of years.

To answer your question maybe the Cardinals do add a Romero to this deal to get a player they would rather have although BTV probably finds a Sloan and Martes deal not that much out of line. I think that once the Marte situation clears up, maybe a couple more suitors take more interest.

Totally agree that it is guess work.
It might even be speculation with we go on what teams have done in the past.

IMO, Seattle will have to leave their comfort zone this off season OR have a good chance
of regression. Marte is more impactful for them than BD. He also is further away from their
comfort zone. He has a contract that goes past his mid 30's and his ask may require players
from the roster or first in line for the roster. AZ wanting 2026 help. My guess.

The hold up may well be on the Cardinals side waiting on 2 or 3 teams that have
appealing deals on the table and for 1 of them to separate themselves. IF Bregman
would just sign with the Cubs or Tigers this would hasten things.

yes it could hasten things, but....
the Cubs?
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[C-Unit]

Donovan is always going to be the main topic, but of course Romero, Noot or other players can be a part of a multi-player package.

The CORRECT BASEBALL DECISION is for STL to attempt to extend Donovan and trade him before the July deadline if he does not sign.
However, if Bloom is determined to trade him in the off-season, I have long advised it big a larger and more significant package deal.
Romero, Moot, Walker, Bernal, Mathews, Hence and several others should all be part of the consideration.

why would you trade Mathews? he's exactly what you should be trading for

Fair question.
Doyle, Clarke, Henderson, Mautz, Hjerpe.
Not all can fit onto the LH starting pitcher role for STL (of course, not all will ever establish themselves at the MLB level).
But that depth does make Mathews expendable and the key with prospects is knowing who to keep and when to deal the others.
If Mathews can be packaged to obtain badly needed outfield talent already at the MLB level, it would rather obviously be the CORRECT BASEBALL DECISION.

Don’t quite understand the ‘not all can fit into the lefty starting pitcher role’ as it implies that a team should have ONE starting lefty.
Even with a ton of righty batters in MLB I would be open minded and not limit the number.
Ex. If I had Kershaw, Sabathia, R. Johnson, Carlton I would not care if I had only one right hand starter or even none.
If the top Cardinal pitchers are several lefty guys then go with them . It appears that Libby and Doyle are already two .

Kindly allow me to further unpack the point.
One - you are looking at it from STL's perspective - rather than the wants / needs of other teams.
Two - trades are best made from an area of depth from one team to an area of dearth with another.
Three - as you point out, Liberatore and Doyle are already in STL's long-term plans, as are McGreevy, Fitts, and potentially Leahy - with May being in the picture for at least 1-2 years.
Four - with Mathews, Clarke, Henderson, Mautz, Hjerpe all currently chasing the 6 listed above, there is redundancy.
Five - with starting pitchers always being highly valued - and LH starters in particular - there may very well be an opportunity to deal Mathews as part of an effort to add RH hitting position player talent.
Easy.
Obvious.
Correct.

I am curious circa 2017 what your correct baseball decision would have been regarding the pitchers in the organization at that time.

Flaherty Reyes Alcantara Gallon Hicks (Weaver Hudson Junior Fernandez)

Who would you have chosen as redundant vs in the plans?

[Red7]

That may be possible but we are entirely in the dark making guesses. The way I’m looking at this is the Cardinals aren’t happy with what has been offered and are holding out for a change of heart from a team.

Maybe the possible availability of Marte is slowing some teams down. He’s a better player who could be used at the same position as Donovan. I’ve heard Seattle has interest in both players. I’ve heard Boston has interest in both. Same with the Mets. Same with the Yankees. I think when Arizona makes a decision on Marte then some teams will change their focus back to Donovan.

The one thing that has baffled me is if there was all of this interest in Donovan from all of these teams and the Cardinals according to a report from Woo have narrowed it down to players from the Mariners and the Giants, no one was going to offer more than what the Giants offered? The Giants don’t have a lot to offer but that wasn’t hard to beat. The Yankees, the Mets, the Sox could all do better if there was true interest unless they are holding back trying to offer more to acquire Marte.

The Mariners I’m not understanding unless they are also holding back hoping to land Marte. The Mariners don’t want to offer up any starters from the major league staff and want to hang onto their top pitching prospects also. I understand that to a point but if you want to make a deal then you have be a little flexible. You will give up your #3 and #7 prospects but you won’t give up your #4 prospect.

This is all speculation because we don’t really know what is going on but I think that Marte might be slowing things up a little. I think the Cardinals would do a deal with Martes and Sloan, even if they have to add another piece but maybe the Mariners can’t make that commitment with the possibility of Marte being available. If the Mariners keep their current starting rotation and the Cardinals aren’t asking for the Mariners top pitching prospect in Cade Anderson, is Sloan such a deal breaker he couldn’t be in this deal. He’s still a couple of years away and things change a lot in a couple of years.

To answer your question maybe the Cardinals do add a Romero to this deal to get a player they would rather have although BTV probably finds a Sloan and Martes deal not that much out of line. I think that once the Marte situation clears up, maybe a couple more suitors take more interest.

The answer is Donovan is a JAG. The return is not what people on here expect.