B. Donovan trade market "ON FIRE" per S.I.

[Whatashame]

They will trade Donovan in the next few days. His value will never be higher and Bloom won't overplay his hand. They know all about the other teams players and what they want. There is no delay for that. This is simply looking at 4-5 offers and giving it a few days to see if one of the suitors blinks and offers over and above the current value. If no one blinks they already know which offer they will take.

Agree it will happen soon.
Strategically, I believe it is a mistake on Bloom's part, for several reasons.
But he seems committed to that path.
So, we will simply have to wait to see what the return will be when he pulls the trigger and evaluate then.

How can trading Donovan be a "strategic mistake"?

Rock, he can’t possibly know if it’s a strategic mistake until we know the return. I see Donovan similar to Edman. Donovan has value but the Cardinals may think that paying Donovan 15-20 million a year when Donovan is in his 30s (which seems where this is headed) just isn’t feasible. If the return on Donovan is a Fedde type then don’t move him. If the return is a couple of high end pitching prospects then that’s a completely different story. We are all waiting for this to resolve itself.

There are rational thoughts to both IMO.

TE's AAV was $15M I believe in Monopoly Money Land. IF BD is similar and the Cardinals cannot afford that
they are done.

IMO, BD really should be productive through his 33 season, That's 5 seasons. As much of a window as
any player on the roster may provide. Is a competitive team 6 seasons away?

A key point here that assumes ignorance by the FO is that there has been zero conversation about
BD's future as a Cardinal. This seems unlikely. IF BD wants to test a market that he is "on fire" in, then
it is close to an automatic trade.

Yes everyone is tradeable. if anyone is then it gets judged on how we go forward. Is the team better
positioned going forward? BD is a good player. It wasn't long ago though that he was considered a UT.
He still has that as an attribute on his resume. Failures by others is why he grabbed 2B. Same as Burleson
as a corner OF/1B. They as opposed to the original plan guys took advantage of opportunities
despite the conditions sometimes used as an excuse of failure to the "A" plan guys.

The Cardinals, according to reports, had preliminary extension discussions with Donovan a year ago. Then everything kind of stopped. I don’t know if that tells us anything but today Donovan is a hot trade topic. Maybe they found out the parameters of an extension that Donovan wanted and aren’t interested. Maybe Donovan wasn’t interested in extending here. None of us know but they are exploring his trade value. Let’s just see what a return looks like if and when a trade happens.

Again, a Fedde like return would be unacceptable but if they are actually able to attain a couple of high end pitching prospects then I’m all for it. If they can’t find a suitable return and Donovan is back next year, that’s OK too but it sounds like there is a market for Donovan.

[AZ_Cardsfan]

It surprises me that some still haven't accepted this is a rebuild. And that unless the team opens the coffers to spend near $200 mil, which is about a $90 mil more than I expect, they can't compete. Wisdom is accepting the things you can't change.

And based on fan base, TV revenues and the looming contract dispute there is no way they are upping the spending. So it is a rebuild and Donovan isn't under control when they expect the results to appear so he is obvious trade material.

I mean hey, if one of you can convince them to sign Tucker, Bregman and Suarez then I'm on the bandwagon and they should keep Donovan.

[renostl]

They will trade Donovan in the next few days. His value will never be higher and Bloom won't overplay his hand. They know all about the other teams players and what they want. There is no delay for that. This is simply looking at 4-5 offers and giving it a few days to see if one of the suitors blinks and offers over and above the current value. If no one blinks they already know which offer they will take.

Agree it will happen soon.
Strategically, I believe it is a mistake on Bloom's part, for several reasons.
But he seems committed to that path.
So, we will simply have to wait to see what the return will be when he pulls the trigger and evaluate then.

How can trading Donovan be a "strategic mistake"?

Rock, he can’t possibly know if it’s a strategic mistake until we know the return. I see Donovan similar to Edman. Donovan has value but the Cardinals may think that paying Donovan 15-20 million a year when Donovan is in his 30s (which seems where this is headed) just isn’t feasible. If the return on Donovan is a Fedde type then don’t move him. If the return is a couple of high end pitching prospects then that’s a completely different story. We are all waiting for this to resolve itself.

There are rational thoughts to both IMO.

TE's AAV was $15M I believe in Monopoly Money Land. IF BD is similar and the Cardinals cannot afford that
they are done.

IMO, BD really should be productive through his 33 season, That's 5 seasons. As much of a window as
any player on the roster may provide. Is a competitive team 6 seasons away?

A key point here that assumes ignorance by the FO is that there has been zero conversation about
BD's future as a Cardinal. This seems unlikely. IF BD wants to test a market that he is "on fire" in, then
it is close to an automatic trade.

Yes everyone is tradeable. if anyone is then it gets judged on how we go forward. Is the team better
positioned going forward? BD is a good player. It wasn't long ago though that he was considered a UT.
He still has that as an attribute on his resume. Failures by others is why he grabbed 2B. Same as Burleson
as a corner OF/1B. They as opposed to the original plan guys took advantage of opportunities
despite the conditions sometimes used as an excuse of failure to the "A" plan guys.

The Cardinals, according to reports, had preliminary extension discussions with Donovan a year ago. Then everything kind of stopped. I don’t know if that tells us anything but today Donovan is a hot trade topic. Maybe they found out the parameters of an extension that Donovan wanted and aren’t interested. Maybe Donovan wasn’t interested in extending here. None of us know but they are exploring his trade value. Let’s just see what a return looks like if and when a trade happens.

Again, a Fedde like return would be unacceptable but if they are actually able to attain a couple of high end pitching prospects then I’m all for it. If they can’t find a suitable return and Donovan is back next year, that’s OK too but it sounds like there is a market for Donovan.

Exactly, on both paragraphs

[renostl]

It surprises me that some still haven't accepted this is a rebuild. And that unless the team opens the coffers to spend near $200 mil, which is about a $90 mil more than I expect, they can't compete. Wisdom is accepting the things you can't change.

And based on fan base, TV revenues and the looming contract dispute there is no way they are upping the spending. So it is a rebuild and Donovan isn't under control when they expect the results to appear so he is obvious trade material.

I mean hey, if one of you can convince them to sign Tucker, Bregman and Suarez then I'm on the bandwagon and they should keep Donovan.

A few counters,

This rebuild is already in the build phase. There is nothing
that has to be dealt away. The Cards have a whole $33M in contracts for 2027.

There is a tremendous difference in $100M and $200M

There are tremendous differences in the players that you named and Donovan.

Wisdom is not assuming, you seem to be doing that in one knowing what they will spend and two
that $200M has to be spent to be competitive. Competitive does have different definitions. Mine
is with a goal of winning the division with desires of more. The posts that I remember of
yours doesn't place you as a WS or bust but I may be wrong.

[Goldfan]

It surprises me that some still haven't accepted this is a rebuild. And that unless the team opens the coffers to spend near $200 mil, which is about a $90 mil more than I expect, they can't compete. Wisdom is accepting the things you can't change.

And based on fan base, TV revenues and the looming contract dispute there is no way they are upping the spending. So it is a rebuild and Donovan isn't under control when they expect the results to appear so he is obvious trade material.

I mean hey, if one of you can convince them to sign Tucker, Bregman and Suarez then I'm on the bandwagon and they should keep Donovan.

The plan is to trade all the talent on this team in exchange for minor leaguers that the other teams don’t think will contribute to their own teams….
REBUILDING=Saving BDW $$$

[AZ_Cardsfan]

It surprises me that some still haven't accepted this is a rebuild. And that unless the team opens the coffers to spend near $200 mil, which is about a $90 mil more than I expect, they can't compete. Wisdom is accepting the things you can't change.

And based on fan base, TV revenues and the looming contract dispute there is no way they are upping the spending. So it is a rebuild and Donovan isn't under control when they expect the results to appear so he is obvious trade material.

I mean hey, if one of you can convince them to sign Tucker, Bregman and Suarez then I'm on the bandwagon and they should keep Donovan.

A few counters,

This rebuild is already in the build phase. There is nothing
that has to be dealt away. The Cards have a whole $33M in contracts for 2027.

There is a tremendous difference in $100M and $200M

There are tremendous differences in the players that you named and Donovan.

Wisdom is not assuming, you seem to be doing that in one knowing what they will spend and two
that $200M has to be spent to be competitive. Competitive does have different definitions. Mine
is with a goal of winning the division with desires of more. The posts that I remember of
yours doesn't place you as a WS or bust but I may be wrong.

Per Spotrac STL salary levels projected when including contracts, arbitration, retained (Sonny Gray) and pre-arb is $95,460,000. My "assumption" is STL won't spend more than about $120 mil in salary this season and no long term heavy contracts.

My "assumption" was that they need to add 3 elite talents to compete for the division title. Yes, much of the rebuild is in place but not to emerge in 2026. 2027 is the more likely year when the pipeline produces game winning ML talent IMO.

So from $95 mil currenlty to adding 3 elite talents like I listed would cost about $85 mil per year (according to estimates on mlbtraderumors.com). So OK maybe they could contend for the division in 2026 if they upped the salary to $180 mil. I do not see that happening with the current level of fan and TV revenues. But like I said if they DO spend and do that I'll gladly jump on the bandwagon. But I believe them when they say they are rebuilding. So I want to see a REAL rebuild pumping that farm with as much high end talent as possible because we all agree only a small percentage of them actually become ML stars.

[Goldfan]

It surprises me that some still haven't accepted this is a rebuild. And that unless the team opens the coffers to spend near $200 mil, which is about a $90 mil more than I expect, they can't compete. Wisdom is accepting the things you can't change.

And based on fan base, TV revenues and the looming contract dispute there is no way they are upping the spending. So it is a rebuild and Donovan isn't under control when they expect the results to appear so he is obvious trade material.

I mean hey, if one of you can convince them to sign Tucker, Bregman and Suarez then I'm on the bandwagon and they should keep Donovan.

A few counters,

This rebuild is already in the build phase. There is nothing
that has to be dealt away. The Cards have a whole $33M in contracts for 2027.

There is a tremendous difference in $100M and $200M

There are tremendous differences in the players that you named and Donovan.

Wisdom is not assuming, you seem to be doing that in one knowing what they will spend and two
that $200M has to be spent to be competitive. Competitive does have different definitions. Mine
is with a goal of winning the division with desires of more. The posts that I remember of
yours doesn't place you as a WS or bust but I may be wrong.

Per Spotrac STL salary levels projected when including contracts, arbitration, retained (Sonny Gray) and pre-arb is $95,460,000. My "assumption" is STL won't spend more than about $120 mil in salary this season and no long term heavy contracts.

My "assumption" was that they need to add 3 elite talents to compete for the division title. Yes, much of the rebuild is in place but not to emerge in 2026. 2027 is the more likely year when the pipeline produces game winning ML talent IMO.

So from $95 mil currenlty to adding 3 elite talents like I listed would cost about $85 mil per year (according to estimates on mlbtraderumors.com). So OK maybe they could contend for the division in 2026 if they upped the salary to $180 mil. I do not see that happening with the current level of fan and TV revenues. But like I said if they DO spend and do that I'll gladly jump on the bandwagon. But I believe them when they say they are rebuilding. So I want to see a REAL rebuild pumping that farm with as much high end talent as possible because we all agree only a small percentage of them actually become ML stars.

So there a “fans” who post here that think 90mil couldn’t put 2 SP and 2 impact bats in the starting lineup and compete this season???

[renostl]

It surprises me that some still haven't accepted this is a rebuild. And that unless the team opens the coffers to spend near $200 mil, which is about a $90 mil more than I expect, they can't compete. Wisdom is accepting the things you can't change.

And based on fan base, TV revenues and the looming contract dispute there is no way they are upping the spending. So it is a rebuild and Donovan isn't under control when they expect the results to appear so he is obvious trade material.

I mean hey, if one of you can convince them to sign Tucker, Bregman and Suarez then I'm on the bandwagon and they should keep Donovan.

A few counters,

This rebuild is already in the build phase. There is nothing
that has to be dealt away. The Cards have a whole $33M in contracts for 2027.

There is a tremendous difference in $100M and $200M

There are tremendous differences in the players that you named and Donovan.

Wisdom is not assuming, you seem to be doing that in one knowing what they will spend and two
that $200M has to be spent to be competitive. Competitive does have different definitions. Mine
is with a goal of winning the division with desires of more. The posts that I remember of
yours doesn't place you as a WS or bust but I may be wrong.

Per Spotrac STL salary levels projected when including contracts, arbitration, retained (Sonny Gray) and pre-arb is $95,460,000. My "assumption" is STL won't spend more than about $120 mil in salary this season and no long term heavy contracts.

My "assumption" was that they need to add 3 elite talents to compete for the division title. Yes, much of the rebuild is in place but not to emerge in 2026. 2027 is the more likely year when the pipeline produces game winning ML talent IMO.

So from $95 mil currenlty to adding 3 elite talents like I listed would cost about $85 mil per year (according to estimates on mlbtraderumors.com). So OK maybe they could contend for the division in 2026 if they upped the salary to $180 mil. I do not see that happening with the current level of fan and TV revenues. But like I said if they DO spend and do that I'll gladly jump on the bandwagon. But I believe them when they say they are rebuilding. So I want to see a REAL rebuild pumping that farm with as much high end talent as possible because we all agree only a small percentage of them actually become ML stars.

The probability is high that you are correct. It doesn't change the point that it is an assumption.

That no players play better in 2026 or not to emerge, that further moves aren't happening, that it takes
a certain dollar of expenditure in order to get an impact, your 3 elite talents.
Your are totally fine to have those opinions, I respect them and you are entitled to have them. Where we are disagreeing is
having to spend $25M+ per player to find impact and that's what has to happen. Trades, lower costs players exist.

Just remember your position

"It surprises me that some still haven't accepted this is a rebuild. And that unless the team opens the coffers to spend near $200 mil, which is about a $90 mil more than I expect, they can't compete"

It is stated as an absolute and if others differ they aren't as astute as you.

[scoutyjones2]

Hurdy "on fire."

Not so much

[JuanAgosto]

What if Donovan isn't traded? And becomes the everyday 3b?

[renostl]

What if Donovan isn't traded? And becomes the everyday 3b?

Certainly a possibility.

Trade somebody else
Burleson has one more control year
Jo Jo
Gorman
How much different would the return be?
It fields a better team and makes an opening for Herrera
even IF he catches it's not for long

[JuanAgosto]

What if Donovan isn't traded? And becomes the everyday 3b?

Certainly a possibility.

Trade somebody else
Burleson has one more control year
Jo Jo
Gorman
How much different would the return be?
It fields a better team and makes an opening for Herrera
even IF he catches it's not for long

If they were to trade Contreras and Arenado, 3b opens for Donovan. Gorman could either spend time in Memphis working on offense and defense. Or he could get reps as the dh when Herrera catches.
Or Nootbaar plays RF with Donovan in LF if Walker starts the year in Memphis.

There are options to play with here. Bloom doesn't have to trade Donovan.

[BobbyOrr]

The 1 Guy you would NEVER want to trade, you are going to trade.

[mattmitchl44]

It surprises me that some still haven't accepted this is a rebuild. And that unless the team opens the coffers to spend near $200 mil, which is about a $90 mil more than I expect, they can't compete. Wisdom is accepting the things you can't change.

And based on fan base, TV revenues and the looming contract dispute there is no way they are upping the spending. So it is a rebuild and Donovan isn't under control when they expect the results to appear so he is obvious trade material.

I mean hey, if one of you can convince them to sign Tucker, Bregman and Suarez then I'm on the bandwagon and they should keep Donovan.

A few counters,

This rebuild is already in the build phase. There is nothing that has to be dealt away. The Cards have a whole $33M in contracts for 2027.

There is a tremendous difference in $100M and $200M

There are tremendous differences in the players that you named and Donovan.

Wisdom is not assuming, you seem to be doing that in one knowing what they will spend and two
that $200M has to be spent to be competitive. Competitive does have different definitions. Mine
is with a goal of winning the division with desires of more. The posts that I remember of
yours doesn't place you as a WS or bust but I may be wrong.

Actually, if they are going to commit to doing this rebuild correctly, they have to trade Gray, Arenado, Contreras, and Donovan - because they need the prospect value those guys will bring in return to further accelerate the rebuild - if they are going to compete again, even to win the NL Central, as soon as 2027 or 2028 instead of 2029, 2030, etc.

As promising as Wetherholt, Doyle, etc. are as future stars of the ML team, they can't put all of the eggs in a limited number of baskets. They absolutely need to go out and add ML-ready or near ML-ready prospects, in particular ones with higher ceilings who may develop into their much needed young stars if Wetherholt, Doyle, etc. don't quite get there.

At this point, it's not about subtracting payroll, it's about adding prospect value to the organization. But those two things are going to effectively go hand-in-hand, because you gather prospect value by trading veteran players, who also will be your higher paid players.

[2ninr]

It surprises me that some still haven't accepted this is a rebuild. And that unless the team opens the coffers to spend near $200 mil, which is about a $90 mil more than I expect, they can't compete. Wisdom is accepting the things you can't change.

And based on fan base, TV revenues and the looming contract dispute there is no way they are upping the spending. So it is a rebuild and Donovan isn't under control when they expect the results to appear so he is obvious trade material.

I mean hey, if one of you can convince them to sign Tucker, Bregman and Suarez then I'm on the bandwagon and they should keep Donovan.

A few counters,

This rebuild is already in the build phase. There is nothing that has to be dealt away. The Cards have a whole $33M in contracts for 2027.

There is a tremendous difference in $100M and $200M

There are tremendous differences in the players that you named and Donovan.

Wisdom is not assuming, you seem to be doing that in one knowing what they will spend and two
that $200M has to be spent to be competitive. Competitive does have different definitions. Mine
is with a goal of winning the division with desires of more. The posts that I remember of
yours doesn't place you as a WS or bust but I may be wrong.

Actually, if they are going to commit to doing this rebuild correctly, they have to trade Gray, Arenado, Contreras, and Donovan - because they need the prospect value those guys will bring in return to further accelerate the rebuild - if they are going to compete again, even to win the NL Central, as soon as 2027 or 2028 instead of 2029, 2030, etc.

As promising as Wetherholt, Doyle, etc. are as future stars of the ML team, they can't put all of the eggs in a limited number of baskets. They absolutely need to go out and add ML-ready or near ML-ready prospects, in particular ones with higher ceilings who may develop into their much needed young stars if Wetherholt, Doyle, etc. don't quite get there.

At this point, it's not about subtracting payroll, it's about adding prospect value to the organization. But those two things are going to effectively go hand-in-hand, because you gather prospect value by trading veteran players, who also will be your higher paid players.

Many people just aren't interested in understanding that. It's not about Bill saving pennies.

[mattmitchl44]

It surprises me that some still haven't accepted this is a rebuild. And that unless the team opens the coffers to spend near $200 mil, which is about a $90 mil more than I expect, they can't compete. Wisdom is accepting the things you can't change.

And based on fan base, TV revenues and the looming contract dispute there is no way they are upping the spending. So it is a rebuild and Donovan isn't under control when they expect the results to appear so he is obvious trade material.

I mean hey, if one of you can convince them to sign Tucker, Bregman and Suarez then I'm on the bandwagon and they should keep Donovan.

A few counters,

This rebuild is already in the build phase. There is nothing that has to be dealt away. The Cards have a whole $33M in contracts for 2027.

There is a tremendous difference in $100M and $200M

There are tremendous differences in the players that you named and Donovan.

Wisdom is not assuming, you seem to be doing that in one knowing what they will spend and two
that $200M has to be spent to be competitive. Competitive does have different definitions. Mine
is with a goal of winning the division with desires of more. The posts that I remember of
yours doesn't place you as a WS or bust but I may be wrong.

Actually, if they are going to commit to doing this rebuild correctly, they have to trade Gray, Arenado, Contreras, and Donovan - because they need the prospect value those guys will bring in return to further accelerate the rebuild - if they are going to compete again, even to win the NL Central, as soon as 2027 or 2028 instead of 2029, 2030, etc.

As promising as Wetherholt, Doyle, etc. are as future stars of the ML team, they can't put all of the eggs in a limited number of baskets. They absolutely need to go out and add ML-ready or near ML-ready prospects, in particular ones with higher ceilings who may develop into their much needed young stars if Wetherholt, Doyle, etc. don't quite get there.

At this point, it's not about subtracting payroll, it's about adding prospect value to the organization. But those two things are going to effectively go hand-in-hand, because you gather prospect value by trading veteran players, who also will be your higher paid players.

Many people just aren't interested in understanding that. It's not about Bill saving pennies.

Right - or, even though the team has to send 2026 money with Gray, Arenado, Contreras to get that maximum prospect value back - they still demand that they go out and spend a lot of money right now to sign new, veteran players to "compete" in 2026.

But they still don't yet have the actual core of young talent at the ML level to do that.

Having the "#1 ranked farm system" and adding more ML-ready prospect talent to that does not immediately materialize young talent actually producing at the ML level. There is a "time delay" to the rebuilding process. Even once Wetherholt, Doyle, and whoever else get to the majors, it will probably take then at least a year or two to find their footing and actually start realizing their potential.

They will most likely really be ready to "compete" again when Wetherholt, Doyle, etc. are in their 2nd or 3rd ML seasons, not now.

Or they will conjure up some unspecified way that Bloom is supposed to go out and obtain known "impact talent." But the only two commodities a GM has to go out and obtain known "impact talent" are (1) money and (2) giving up talent from your organization. Some have conjured up "just go trade with SD for Tatis!" - but the only way you are getting Tatis is having to give up Wetherholt, Doyle - or probably BOTH.