NYCardsFan wrote: ↑25 Nov 2025 12:24 pm
The best thing about this trade is it shows the Cardinals are committed to acquiring prospects and not just offloading salary. Gray wouldn't have required a ton of cash to be kicked in if the goal were just a salary dump.
These are the type of long shot prospects that very likely don't move the needle. No one is a former 1st or 2nd round pick, no one is a big threat to become a future AS or 4-6 fWAR SP. Just JAGs and depth and maybe a distant future bullpen arm in Clarke - but you can always find proven plus bullpen arms for less then $20M.
If Clarke were all that, Boston wouldn't have let him go. They traded him for a reason.
I guess you could say that when they trade Donovan. I guess you could say that when they trade Arenado. And so on... You can spin any conversation to have a negative tilt. There are possibilities here. It's done. We'll see how it goes.
No - if Bloom trades a proven AS Donovan for another proven AS caliber player with years of control left at a position we need talent, there's a very high liklihood we get reasonable value back. Prospects are institutionally overvalued. Proven MLB players, with $ contracts attached are much more attainable.
See the Renteria trade in 1998/1999, heck we traded top prospects for proven talent with years of control. I'm not saying to give up a #1 or #2 prospect for another Renteria type, just a proven AS player already in the Majors. And maybe a lower ranked prospect to sweeten the deal if needed.
Even if the (unlikely) opportunity to trade Donovan for a “proven AS caliber” player presented itself, it would not make sense for the Cardinals. 1) Proven AS players do not get traded pre-arbitration, so whoever they acquire will be making as much or more $$ than Donovan. 2) Said AS player will be only be 2-3 years away from free agency. 3) The Cardinals cannot expect to be seriously competitive within that timeframe, so making such an acquisition would be pointless.
You want prospects because they’ll have 6 years of control in the majors, and three years making near the minimum.
I hear that, but a "proven" player has a much higher liklihood of working out than a "prospect" who might well fail long before reaching the majors. Prospect values historically have been discounted accordingly but of late the prospect hype has taken over and on balance prospects cost too much in talent trade value for their risk adjusted expected value. Sure their is the potential cost savings, but again if they never achieve significant WAR, how is that really helping ?
Sometimes its worth paying the $ for a more sure thing.
Lengthwise, yes you look for someone with 3+ years of control, but we kept Renteria for 6 years After he was already an AS for Florida. And yes he got traded. Find someone at a position worth extending, that you want to build around. That's the opportunity from this Donovan trade. Not just another long shot pitching prospect that might burn out before finishing the long road to even reach MLB.
If the Cardinals were in position to win, your comment is spot on. But, how many players are the Cards away from being a real contender? They need at least 3 higher end starting pitchers and 2 MOTOBs to be a true contender. We know with the payroll constraints, they will not purchase that on the free agent market. Hopefully when the Cards could contend again in 2-3 years, they can trade these prospects for exactly the type of players you are describing. Right now, the Cards 8 50 grade or higher prospects in the system. I would expect after the off season is done, that number will rise to 10 or 11. That gives them plenty of talent that will hopefully develop but also to be used for future talent acquisition. Also, given the Cards are likely to get another top 5 pick, hopefully we get another Doyle/Wetherholdt prospect this summer.
we were still a couple years away after the 1998 season as well when we landed Renteria. Maybe we could trade for an Andy Pages who has YEARS of control left and is young enough to continue to extend. And we don't have better OFers in the system no matter how long we wait.
Anyway in 1999 we get Drew and Ankiel going, who are somewhat equivalent to JJW and Doyle as high prospects over the next couple years, with Edgar added to that young core. 1999 was a bust, but we brought in Will clark in 2000 and Pujols arrived in 2001 and we averaged 95 wins from 2000-2004 while Edgar was with us. Its wasn't too early in 1998 for a young star with control.
NYCardsFan wrote: ↑25 Nov 2025 12:24 pm
The best thing about this trade is it shows the Cardinals are committed to acquiring prospects and not just offloading salary. Gray wouldn't have required a ton of cash to be kicked in if the goal were just a salary dump.
These are the type of long shot prospects that very likely don't move the needle. No one is a former 1st or 2nd round pick, no one is a big threat to become a future AS or 4-6 fWAR SP. Just JAGs and depth and maybe a distant future bullpen arm in Clarke - but you can always find proven plus bullpen arms for less then $20M.
If Clarke were all that, Boston wouldn't have let him go. They traded him for a reason.
rockondlouie wrote: ↑25 Nov 2025 12:07 pm
Cardinals trade grade
Fitts had just an OK full year for the Sox, with a 5.00 ERA in 10 starts. But he's young and there's potential there, it seems.
Clarke is among the top-five prospects for the Sox, so that's a really good return there.
GRADE: B+
Red Sox trade grade
GRADE: B
-USAToday
I posted a thread before about prospect rankings. Where did the Red Sox rank Clarke? He is high strikeout/high walks. Typical of a late inning reliver but not a starter. If Bloom spends the cash saved on a younger ballplayer with years left on his contract when it's a decent trade but I'd reserve judgement on how good Clarke is unless and until he arrives in St Louis.
Clark was the BoSox #5 ranked prospect!
Clarke was ranked #5 by baseball prospectus. The point of my previous thread is we don't know where the Red Sox rank him in their internal rankings which they don't make public.
This is not insignificant. A Cardinals employee went to prison for hacking Houston's internal information.
Gotcha
Okay here you go SM:
Another source, SoxProspects, had him ranked as the No. 8 prospect in their system
I understand why the use these prospect rankings whenever a trade is made. Regarding Clarke he throws 100 but has very poor control. If he was throwing strikes at that MPH he would likely already be in MLB contending for a Cy Young award. He will need to stop walking so many if he wants to be a starting pitcher in MLB. This will be interesting to follow going forward. Probably ends up being a late inning reliever. How Bloom spends the money saved will determine how good the trade was short term.
No doubt it's a moonshot but that plus a major league starter (Fitt) and $20M in payroll savings is still a great trade for S. Gray.
rockondlouie wrote: ↑25 Nov 2025 12:07 pm
Cardinals trade grade
Fitts had just an OK full year for the Sox, with a 5.00 ERA in 10 starts. But he's young and there's potential there, it seems.
Clarke is among the top-five prospects for the Sox, so that's a really good return there.
GRADE: B+
Red Sox trade grade
GRADE: B
-USAToday
I posted a thread before about prospect rankings. Where did the Red Sox rank Clarke? He is high strikeout/high walks. Typical of a late inning reliver but not a starter. If Bloom spends the cash saved on a younger ballplayer with years left on his contract when it's a decent trade but I'd reserve judgement on how good Clarke is unless and until he arrives in St Louis.
Clark was the BoSox #5 ranked prospect!
Clarke was ranked #5 by baseball prospectus. The point of my previous thread is we don't know where the Red Sox rank him in their internal rankings which they don't make public.
This is not insignificant. A Cardinals employee went to prison for hacking Houston's internal information.
Gotcha
Okay here you go SM:
Another source, SoxProspects, had him ranked as the No. 8 prospect in their system
I understand why the use these prospect rankings whenever a trade is made. Regarding Clarke he throws 100 but has very poor control. If he was throwing strikes at that MPH he would likely already be in MLB contending for a Cy Young award. He will need to stop walking so many if he wants to be a starting pitcher in MLB. This will be interesting to follow going forward. Probably ends up being a late inning reliever. How Bloom spends the money saved will determine how good the trade was short term.
No doubt it's a moonshot but that plus a major league starter (Fitt) and $20M in payroll savings is still a great trade for S. Gray.
Sure hope BDWJr let's Bloom reinvest that $20M!
I'll reserve judgement until I see that last part but that $20 million is for one year. It doesn't buy much of a player over a 4 or 5 year contract.
rockondlouie wrote: ↑25 Nov 2025 12:07 pm
Cardinals trade grade
Fitts had just an OK full year for the Sox, with a 5.00 ERA in 10 starts. But he's young and there's potential there, it seems.
Clarke is among the top-five prospects for the Sox, so that's a really good return there.
GRADE: B+
Red Sox trade grade
GRADE: B
-USAToday
I posted a thread before about prospect rankings. Where did the Red Sox rank Clarke? He is high strikeout/high walks. Typical of a late inning reliver but not a starter. If Bloom spends the cash saved on a younger ballplayer with years left on his contract when it's a decent trade but I'd reserve judgement on how good Clarke is unless and until he arrives in St Louis.
Clark was the BoSox #5 ranked prospect!
Clarke was ranked #5 by baseball prospectus. The point of my previous thread is we don't know where the Red Sox rank him in their internal rankings which they don't make public.
This is not insignificant. A Cardinals employee went to prison for hacking Houston's internal information.
Gotcha
Okay here you go SM:
Another source, SoxProspects, had him ranked as the No. 8 prospect in their system
I understand why the use these prospect rankings whenever a trade is made. Regarding Clarke he throws 100 but has very poor control. If he was throwing strikes at that MPH he would likely already be in MLB contending for a Cy Young award. He will need to stop walking so many if he wants to be a starting pitcher in MLB. This will be interesting to follow going forward. Probably ends up being a late inning reliever. How Bloom spends the money saved will determine how good the trade was short term.
No doubt it's a moonshot but that plus a major league starter (Fitt) and $20M in payroll savings is still a great trade for S. Gray.
Sure hope BDWJr let's Bloom reinvest that $20M!
I'll reserve judgement until I see that last part but that $20 million is for one year. It doesn't buy much of a player over a 4 or 5 year contract.
Look at it as a down payment if they go after a big fish.
NYCardsFan wrote: ↑25 Nov 2025 12:24 pm
The best thing about this trade is it shows the Cardinals are committed to acquiring prospects and not just offloading salary. Gray wouldn't have required a ton of cash to be kicked in if the goal were just a salary dump.
These are the type of long shot prospects that very likely don't move the needle. No one is a former 1st or 2nd round pick, no one is a big threat to become a future AS or 4-6 fWAR SP. Just JAGs and depth and maybe a distant future bullpen arm in Clarke - but you can always find proven plus bullpen arms for less then $20M.
If Clarke were all that, Boston wouldn't have let him go. They traded him for a reason.
I guess you could say that when they trade Donovan. I guess you could say that when they trade Arenado. And so on... You can spin any conversation to have a negative tilt. There are possibilities here. It's done. We'll see how it goes.
No - if Bloom trades a proven AS Donovan for another proven AS caliber player with years of control left at a position we need talent, there's a very high liklihood we get reasonable value back. Prospects are institutionally overvalued. Proven MLB players, with $ contracts attached are much more attainable.
See the Renteria trade in 1998/1999, heck we traded top prospects for proven talent with years of control. I'm not saying to give up a #1 or #2 prospect for another Renteria type, just a proven AS player already in the Majors. And maybe a lower ranked prospect to sweeten the deal if needed.
Even if the (unlikely) opportunity to trade Donovan for a “proven AS caliber” player presented itself, it would not make sense for the Cardinals. 1) Proven AS players do not get traded pre-arbitration, so whoever they acquire will be making as much or more $$ than Donovan. 2) Said AS player will be only be 2-3 years away from free agency. 3) The Cardinals cannot expect to be seriously competitive within that timeframe, so making such an acquisition would be pointless.
You want prospects because they’ll have 6 years of control in the majors, and three years making near the minimum.
I hear that, but a "proven" player has a much higher liklihood of working out than a "prospect" who might well fail long before reaching the majors. Prospect values historically have been discounted accordingly but of late the prospect hype has taken over and on balance prospects cost too much in talent trade value for their risk adjusted expected value. Sure their is the potential cost savings, but again if they never achieve significant WAR, how is that really helping ?
Sometimes its worth paying the $ for a more sure thing.
Lengthwise, yes you look for someone with 3+ years of control, but we kept Renteria for 6 years After he was already an AS for Florida. And yes he got traded. Find someone at a position worth extending, that you want to build around. That's the opportunity from this Donovan trade. Not just another long shot pitching prospect that might burn out before finishing the long road to even reach MLB.
If the Cardinals were in position to win, your comment is spot on. But, how many players are the Cards away from being a real contender? They need at least 3 higher end starting pitchers and 2 MOTOBs to be a true contender. We know with the payroll constraints, they will not purchase that on the free agent market. Hopefully when the Cards could contend again in 2-3 years, they can trade these prospects for exactly the type of players you are describing. Right now, the Cards 8 50 grade or higher prospects in the system. I would expect after the off season is done, that number will rise to 10 or 11. That gives them plenty of talent that will hopefully develop but also to be used for future talent acquisition. Also, given the Cards are likely to get another top 5 pick, hopefully we get another Doyle/Wetherholdt prospect this summer.
we were still a couple years away after the 1998 season as well when we landed Renteria. Maybe we could trade for an Andy Pages who has YEARS of control left and is young enough to continue to extend. And we don't have better OFers in the system no matter how long we wait.
Anyway in 1999 we get Drew and Ankiel going, who are somewhat equivalent to JJW and Doyle as high prospects over the next couple years, with Edgar added to that young core. 1999 was a bust, but we brought in Will clark in 2000 and Pujols arrived in 2001 and we averaged 95 wins from 2000-2004 while Edgar was with us. Its wasn't too early in 1998 for a young star with control.
They also added Darryl Kile, Jim Edmonds, Fernando Viña & Woody Williams in that timeframe. The Cardinals aren’t poised to do anything like that.
NYCardsFan wrote: ↑25 Nov 2025 12:24 pm
The best thing about this trade is it shows the Cardinals are committed to acquiring prospects and not just offloading salary. Gray wouldn't have required a ton of cash to be kicked in if the goal were just a salary dump.
These are the type of long shot prospects that very likely don't move the needle. No one is a former 1st or 2nd round pick, no one is a big threat to become a future AS or 4-6 fWAR SP. Just JAGs and depth and maybe a distant future bullpen arm in Clarke - but you can always find proven plus bullpen arms for less then $20M.
If Clarke were all that, Boston wouldn't have let him go. They traded him for a reason.
I guess you could say that when they trade Donovan. I guess you could say that when they trade Arenado. And so on... You can spin any conversation to have a negative tilt. There are possibilities here. It's done. We'll see how it goes.
No - if Bloom trades a proven AS Donovan for another proven AS caliber player with years of control left at a position we need talent, there's a very high liklihood we get reasonable value back. Prospects are institutionally overvalued. Proven MLB players, with $ contracts attached are much more attainable.
See the Renteria trade in 1998/1999, heck we traded top prospects for proven talent with years of control. I'm not saying to give up a #1 or #2 prospect for another Renteria type, just a proven AS player already in the Majors. And maybe a lower ranked prospect to sweeten the deal if needed.
Even if the (unlikely) opportunity to trade Donovan for a “proven AS caliber” player presented itself, it would not make sense for the Cardinals. 1) Proven AS players do not get traded pre-arbitration, so whoever they acquire will be making as much or more $$ than Donovan. 2) Said AS player will be only be 2-3 years away from free agency. 3) The Cardinals cannot expect to be seriously competitive within that timeframe, so making such an acquisition would be pointless.
You want prospects because they’ll have 6 years of control in the majors, and three years making near the minimum.
I hear that, but a "proven" player has a much higher liklihood of working out than a "prospect" who might well fail long before reaching the majors. Prospect values historically have been discounted accordingly but of late the prospect hype has taken over and on balance prospects cost too much in talent trade value for their risk adjusted expected value. Sure their is the potential cost savings, but again if they never achieve significant WAR, how is that really helping ?
Sometimes its worth paying the $ for a more sure thing.
Lengthwise, yes you look for someone with 3+ years of control, but we kept Renteria for 6 years After he was already an AS for Florida. And yes he got traded. Find someone at a position worth extending, that you want to build around. That's the opportunity from this Donovan trade. Not just another long shot pitching prospect that might burn out before finishing the long road to even reach MLB.
If the Cardinals were in position to win, your comment is spot on. But, how many players are the Cards away from being a real contender? They need at least 3 higher end starting pitchers and 2 MOTOBs to be a true contender. We know with the payroll constraints, they will not purchase that on the free agent market. Hopefully when the Cards could contend again in 2-3 years, they can trade these prospects for exactly the type of players you are describing. Right now, the Cards 8 50 grade or higher prospects in the system. I would expect after the off season is done, that number will rise to 10 or 11. That gives them plenty of talent that will hopefully develop but also to be used for future talent acquisition. Also, given the Cards are likely to get another top 5 pick, hopefully we get another Doyle/Wetherholdt prospect this summer.
we were still a couple years away after the 1998 season as well when we landed Renteria. Maybe we could trade for an Andy Pages who has YEARS of control left and is young enough to continue to extend. And we don't have better OFers in the system no matter how long we wait.
Anyway in 1999 we get Drew and Ankiel going, who are somewhat equivalent to JJW and Doyle as high prospects over the next couple years, with Edgar added to that young core. 1999 was a bust, but we brought in Will clark in 2000 and Pujols arrived in 2001 and we averaged 95 wins from 2000-2004 while Edgar was with us. Its wasn't too early in 1998 for a young star with control.
They also added Darryl Kile, Jim Edmonds, Fernando Viña & Woody Williams in that timeframe. The Cardinals aren’t poised to do anything like that.
they could choose to be in a position in the near future. There's plenty of dry poder
Carp4Cy wrote: ↑26 Nov 2025 09:26 am
we were still a couple years away after the 1998 season as well when we landed Renteria. Maybe we could trade for an Andy Pages who has YEARS of control left and is young enough to continue to extend. And we don't have better OFers in the system no matter how long we wait.
Anyway in 1999 we get Drew and Ankiel going, who are somewhat equivalent to JJW and Doyle as high prospects over the next couple years, with Edgar added to that young core. 1999 was a bust, but we brought in Will clark in 2000 and Pujols arrived in 2001 and we averaged 95 wins from 2000-2004 while Edgar was with us. Its wasn't too early in 1998 for a young star with control.
They also added Darryl Kile, Jim Edmonds, Fernando Viña & Woody Williams in that timeframe. The Cardinals aren’t poised to do anything like that.
they could choose to be in a position in the near future. There's plenty of dry poder
I’m not sure they could ‘choose’ to build a team the way Jocketty did 25 years ago… the payroll would not allow for it. Think of all the star players that were acquired and extended - only teams like the Dodgers & Yankees could manage anything like that now.
The Cardinals need to grow their own talent. They can enrich their system with a few trades, and hope to develop a core to build around. The thought of acquiring multiple, proven star players is not a reasonable expectation of a team that’s going to be in the bottom half in payroll.
Carp4Cy wrote: ↑26 Nov 2025 09:26 am
we were still a couple years away after the 1998 season as well when we landed Renteria. Maybe we could trade for an Andy Pages who has YEARS of control left and is young enough to continue to extend. And we don't have better OFers in the system no matter how long we wait.
Anyway in 1999 we get Drew and Ankiel going, who are somewhat equivalent to JJW and Doyle as high prospects over the next couple years, with Edgar added to that young core. 1999 was a bust, but we brought in Will clark in 2000 and Pujols arrived in 2001 and we averaged 95 wins from 2000-2004 while Edgar was with us. Its wasn't too early in 1998 for a young star with control.
They also added Darryl Kile, Jim Edmonds, Fernando Viña & Woody Williams in that timeframe. The Cardinals aren’t poised to do anything like that.
they could choose to be in a position in the near future. There's plenty of dry poder
I’m not sure they could ‘choose’ to build a team the way Jocketty did 25 years ago… the payroll would not allow for it. Think of all the star players that were acquired and extended - only teams like the Dodgers & Yankees could manage anything like that now.
The Cardinals need to grow their own talent. They can enrich their system with a few trades,
This is the part where Andy Pages makes sense. He's relatively affordable, controllable long term, and we have both Donavon or Prospects to trade.
Carp4Cy wrote: ↑26 Nov 2025 09:26 am
we were still a couple years away after the 1998 season as well when we landed Renteria. Maybe we could trade for an Andy Pages who has YEARS of control left and is young enough to continue to extend. And we don't have better OFers in the system no matter how long we wait.
Anyway in 1999 we get Drew and Ankiel going, who are somewhat equivalent to JJW and Doyle as high prospects over the next couple years, with Edgar added to that young core. 1999 was a bust, but we brought in Will clark in 2000 and Pujols arrived in 2001 and we averaged 95 wins from 2000-2004 while Edgar was with us. Its wasn't too early in 1998 for a young star with control.
They also added Darryl Kile, Jim Edmonds, Fernando Viña & Woody Williams in that timeframe. The Cardinals aren’t poised to do anything like that.
they could choose to be in a position in the near future. There's plenty of dry poder
I’m not sure they could ‘choose’ to build a team the way Jocketty did 25 years ago… the payroll would not allow for it. Think of all the star players that were acquired and extended - only teams like the Dodgers & Yankees could manage anything like that now.
The Cardinals need to grow their own talent. They can enrich their system with a few trades, and hope to develop a core to build around. The thought of acquiring multiple, proven star players is not a reasonable expectation of a team that’s going to be in the bottom half in payroll.
Also, Vina and Williams weren't top "stars". They were solid proven MLB ballplayers who actually got better coming into Tony's system. We could still make these types of moves without being the Dodgers.
Carp4Cy wrote: ↑26 Nov 2025 09:26 am
we were still a couple years away after the 1998 season as well when we landed Renteria. Maybe we could trade for an Andy Pages who has YEARS of control left and is young enough to continue to extend. And we don't have better OFers in the system no matter how long we wait.
Anyway in 1999 we get Drew and Ankiel going, who are somewhat equivalent to JJW and Doyle as high prospects over the next couple years, with Edgar added to that young core. 1999 was a bust, but we brought in Will clark in 2000 and Pujols arrived in 2001 and we averaged 95 wins from 2000-2004 while Edgar was with us. Its wasn't too early in 1998 for a young star with control.
They also added Darryl Kile, Jim Edmonds, Fernando Viña & Woody Williams in that timeframe. The Cardinals aren’t poised to do anything like that.
they could choose to be in a position in the near future. There's plenty of dry poder
I’m not sure they could ‘choose’ to build a team the way Jocketty did 25 years ago… the payroll would not allow for it. Think of all the star players that were acquired and extended - only teams like the Dodgers & Yankees could manage anything like that now.
The Cardinals need to grow their own talent. They can enrich their system with a few trades, and hope to develop a core to build around. The thought of acquiring multiple, proven star players is not a reasonable expectation of a team that’s going to be in the bottom half in payroll.
Also, Vina and Williams weren't top "stars". They were solid proven MLB ballplayers who actually got better coming into Tony's system. We could still make these types of moves without being the Dodgers.
Carp4Cy wrote: ↑26 Nov 2025 09:26 am
we were still a couple years away after the 1998 season as well when we landed Renteria. Maybe we could trade for an Andy Pages who has YEARS of control left and is young enough to continue to extend. And we don't have better OFers in the system no matter how long we wait.
Anyway in 1999 we get Drew and Ankiel going, who are somewhat equivalent to JJW and Doyle as high prospects over the next couple years, with Edgar added to that young core. 1999 was a bust, but we brought in Will clark in 2000 and Pujols arrived in 2001 and we averaged 95 wins from 2000-2004 while Edgar was with us. Its wasn't too early in 1998 for a young star with control.
They also added Darryl Kile, Jim Edmonds, Fernando Viña & Woody Williams in that timeframe. The Cardinals aren’t poised to do anything like that.
they could choose to be in a position in the near future. There's plenty of dry poder
I’m not sure they could ‘choose’ to build a team the way Jocketty did 25 years ago… the payroll would not allow for it. Think of all the star players that were acquired and extended - only teams like the Dodgers & Yankees could manage anything like that now.
The Cardinals need to grow their own talent. They can enrich their system with a few trades, and hope to develop a core to build around. The thought of acquiring multiple, proven star players is not a reasonable expectation of a team that’s going to be in the bottom half in payroll.
Also, Vina and Williams weren't top "stars". They were solid proven MLB ballplayers who actually got better coming into Tony's system. We could still make these types of moves without being the Dodgers.
Viña was a 1998 AS… I guess not a ‘top’ star, but whatever. Williams was getting paid like a star when they acquired him, though he wasn’t living up to it, pre-Duncan dust.
Carp4Cy wrote: ↑26 Nov 2025 09:26 am
we were still a couple years away after the 1998 season as well when we landed Renteria. Maybe we could trade for an Andy Pages who has YEARS of control left and is young enough to continue to extend. And we don't have better OFers in the system no matter how long we wait.
Anyway in 1999 we get Drew and Ankiel going, who are somewhat equivalent to JJW and Doyle as high prospects over the next couple years, with Edgar added to that young core. 1999 was a bust, but we brought in Will clark in 2000 and Pujols arrived in 2001 and we averaged 95 wins from 2000-2004 while Edgar was with us. Its wasn't too early in 1998 for a young star with control.
They also added Darryl Kile, Jim Edmonds, Fernando Viña & Woody Williams in that timeframe. The Cardinals aren’t poised to do anything like that.
they could choose to be in a position in the near future. There's plenty of dry poder
I’m not sure they could ‘choose’ to build a team the way Jocketty did 25 years ago… the payroll would not allow for it. Think of all the star players that were acquired and extended - only teams like the Dodgers & Yankees could manage anything like that now.
The Cardinals need to grow their own talent. They can enrich their system with a few trades, and hope to develop a core to build around. The thought of acquiring multiple, proven star players is not a reasonable expectation of a team that’s going to be in the bottom half in payroll.
Also, Vina and Williams weren't top "stars". They were solid proven MLB ballplayers who actually got better coming into Tony's system. We could still make these types of moves without being the Dodgers.
Viña was a 1998 AS… I guess not a ‘top’ star, but whatever. Williams was getting paid like a star when they acquired him, though he wasn’t living up to it, pre-Duncan dust.
Still they aren’t Ohtanis or Sotos. We could afford their equivalents without being the Dodgers.
We need some level homegrown talent but will never have sustained success with payroll in the bottom half and no significant outside additions. It needs to climb back into the 10-12 range where it historically has been in WS years.
And Mitch has promised us that Bloom will be allowed to spend on top veterans once the younger guys contribute.
Meanwhile adding young guys who are already producing just makes a lot of sense.
Carp4Cy wrote: ↑26 Nov 2025 13:50 pm
they could choose to be in a position in the near future. There's plenty of dry poder
I’m not sure they could ‘choose’ to build a team the way Jocketty did 25 years ago… the payroll would not allow for it. Think of all the star players that were acquired and extended - only teams like the Dodgers & Yankees could manage anything like that now.
The Cardinals need to grow their own talent. They can enrich their system with a few trades, and hope to develop a core to build around. The thought of acquiring multiple, proven star players is not a reasonable expectation of a team that’s going to be in the bottom half in payroll.
Also, Vina and Williams weren't top "stars". They were solid proven MLB ballplayers who actually got better coming into Tony's system. We could still make these types of moves without being the Dodgers.
Viña was a 1998 AS… I guess not a ‘top’ star, but whatever. Williams was getting paid like a star when they acquired him, though he wasn’t living up to it, pre-Duncan dust.
Still they aren’t Ohtanis or Sotos. We could afford their equivalents without being the Dodgers.
We need some level homegrown talent but will never have sustained success with payroll in the bottom half and no significant outside additions. It needs to climb back into the 10-12 range where it historically has been in WS years.
And Mitch has promised us that Bloom will be allowed to spend on top veterans once the younger guys contribute.
Meanwhile adding young guys who are already producing just makes a lot of sense.
Why would the do what you’re suggesting? Acquire Woody Williams and Fernando Viña types to build around what? Neither of them were “young” and both were under hefty contracts. It should be obvious the team is not currently headed that direction, and they shouldn’t.
It doesn’t make sense to add complementary pieces to a team without a core.
Carp4Cy wrote: ↑26 Nov 2025 13:50 pm
they could choose to be in a position in the near future. There's plenty of dry poder
I’m not sure they could ‘choose’ to build a team the way Jocketty did 25 years ago… the payroll would not allow for it. Think of all the star players that were acquired and extended - only teams like the Dodgers & Yankees could manage anything like that now.
The Cardinals need to grow their own talent. They can enrich their system with a few trades, and hope to develop a core to build around. The thought of acquiring multiple, proven star players is not a reasonable expectation of a team that’s going to be in the bottom half in payroll.
Also, Vina and Williams weren't top "stars". They were solid proven MLB ballplayers who actually got better coming into Tony's system. We could still make these types of moves without being the Dodgers.
Viña was a 1998 AS… I guess not a ‘top’ star, but whatever. Williams was getting paid like a star when they acquired him, though he wasn’t living up to it, pre-Duncan dust.
Still they aren’t Ohtanis or Sotos. We could afford their equivalents without being the Dodgers.
We need some level homegrown talent but will never have sustained success with payroll in the bottom half and no significant outside additions. It needs to climb back into the 10-12 range where it historically has been in WS years.
And Mitch has promised us that Bloom will be allowed to spend on top veterans once the younger guys contribute.
Meanwhile adding young guys who are already producing just makes a lot of sense.
Why would the do what you’re suggesting? Acquire Woody Williams and Fernando Viña types to build around what? Neither of them were “young” and both were under hefty contracts. It should be obvious the team is not currently headed that direction, and they shouldn’t.
It doesn’t make sense to add complementary pieces to a team without a core.
No I’m suggesting building a young core of already known quantities like Andy Pages. Then in a yea or so add more vets to build around them and fill what we don’t have and haven’t been able to produce from our minors.
